Extract addition in last 15min of boil?

[GoBrewers]

I'm certain tha process has already happened before the extract was reduced.

However, if your beer is too cloudy you can always use gelatin a couple of days prior to bottling.

I know the instructions for gelatin say to use it at bottling, but that stuff looks UGLY!! I use it in the carboy then rack to a bottling bucket a few days later. It works well.

Do you find that gelatin works better than other clarifying agents, like irish moss or whirlfloc? I've only tried whirlfloc, and it seems to work ok, but I'd try gelatin if you vouch for it.

EDIT: I guess I've always liked the tablets because you add them at the boil, when there is no risk of bugs.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Yes. Gelatin DEFINITELY works! :rockin:

Some people might say that it works too well and strips too much yeast out of the solution, but if you keg you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

 

[mikes65]

My understanding is that ME is basically wort that has already been processed and reduced down to a powder or syrup. Therefore, any processes that require boiling have already been done for the ME.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

It's funny... I find that this is an awful lot like raising kids in the aspect that everybody's got an opinion on how to do it, and the ideas are often VERY different. People like the guy that runs my LHBS are very, VERY knowledgeable, but when I take ideas that he says and bounce them off others I often recieve very different results.

Bottom line I guess is that it's all about experimentation, and finding out what works for you.

 

[Alamo_Beer]

Bottom line I guess is that it's all about experimentation, and finding out what works for you.

Isn't that what homebrewing is supposed to be about?

 

[Schlenkerla]

You guys are saying that the hot break doesn't need to occur - Right?

Doesn't this fly in the face of most of the advice given by the experts in the hobby? Chucks TNCJOBH says you need to boil to precipitate and coagulate the undesirable proteins. - Or is this now bunk?

Your logic is that it has already been done with DME & LME. I'm not 100% convinced of that. I can understand no boil kits as having already done that and possibly hopped extracts.

Does anyone know if the mfg of LME & DME changed in the last decade? I know the ME is boiled under a vacuum at temps 105-160'F

This is interesting.... might be worth contacting Briess or Muntons to see what that have to say about this.

 

[Alamo_Beer]

This is interesting.... might be worth contacting Briess or Muntons to see what that have to say about this.

Agreed.......do it!

 

[Schlenkerla]

I emailed them both. Briess & Muntons - Asking specifically about the need for the hot break and the motivation to minimize caramelization of the sugars.

Got one reply back already. Out of office message....

I should have an answer on Monday.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Good job!

 

[GoBrewers]

I emailed them both. Briess & Muntons - Asking specifically about the need for the hot break and the motivation to minimize caramelization of the sugars.

Got one reply back already. Out of office message....

I should have an answer on Monday.

Any word from Briess or Muntons? Don't mean to be a pest, but I'm kind of interested to hear what they have to say

 

[z987k]

I've done my last two with late extract additions, the first with putting a bit in with the bittering hops and the second I held out all the extract until about 10mins. We'll see what color they come to.. These were both LME btw.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I emailed both Briess & Muntons regarding late boil addition of LME & DME.

This came back from "Andy" at Muntons.

Dear Customer,
Thank you for your interest in www.yoursite.com.
Below is the answer to your question submited on 04/06/2007

QUESTION:
People in my home brewing community are saying that you no longer have to boil LME or DME for 60 minutes. Only 10-15 minutes. The claim is its not necessary since its already done in manufacturing of the malt. The motivation is so they don't caramelize the malt any more than necessary which would make their beers darker than the desired color.
Is this true? - Thanks!!

ANSWER:
To be honest with you don't need to boil Muntons LME or DME at all as we pasturise our LME and the DME, by the nature of the process, will be pasturised.
By not boiling you will maintain the delicate malt flavour in our products and obtain a far better beer.


Please feel free to get back to us for any further assistance.

Sincerely,
Ask Andy
www.muntons.com​

If you want a good laugh looks at this. I think the advice should taken with a grain of salt.

http://www.muntons.com/homebeer/instructions/htm/instructions_5.asp

Simple Instructions

1. Clean and sterilise all equipment. Remove label and stand can(s) in hot water for 5 minutes to soften contents. Pour the contents into the sterilised fermenter.

2. Add 3.5 litres (6 UK pints) boiling water. Add 16.5 litres (29 UK pints) of cold water to bring the volume up to 23 litres (40 UK pints, 6 US Gallons) and thoroughly mix to make sure all the contents are fully dissolved.

3. Add the yeast, cover the fermenter and leave to stand for 4-6 days in a warm place (between 18-20 C, 65-70 F). Fermentation will be finished when the bubbles cease to rise (if you use a hydrometer, when the gravity remains constant below 1014&#176.

4. Transfer the beer into bottles or a pressure barrel and add half a teaspoon of Light Spraymalt per pint to each bottle, or a maximum of 85 grams (3oz) per 5 UK gallon pressure barrel. Sugar may be used instead. Stand bottles or barrel in a warm place for 2 days then allow 14 days in a cool place or until the beer has cleared.


Sugar: This kit does not require the addition of any sugar other than for priming. Light Spraymalt may be used instead of sugar for priming which will ensure that your beer complies strictly with the 15th Century purity law, the Reinheitsgebot.​

If you guys are successfull with this, then I guess its not a big deal.

How is the clarity of the beers you make? (Minimal Chill Haze)

Do you hop differently?

BTW - Briess never replied. I guess they don't give a rats a$$ about customer questions.

FYI - I fired back a few more questions about the need for a hot-break, impact of hop efficiency and specifically asked why most recipes say to boil malt. I'll share the answer I get back as well.

 

[Schlenkerla]

4. Transfer the beer into bottles or a pressure barrel and add half a teaspoon of Light Spraymalt per pint to each bottle, or a maximum of 85 grams (3oz) per 5 UK gallon pressure barrel.....

If you think bottling is a PITA..... try priming this way!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Just got this 2 minutes ago.

Dear John,

I miss understood your original question. Much literature in the homebrew trade has stated that you should boil kits when brewing to sanitise it. All I am saying is that this is not necessary as we already do this as we pasteurise the malt before canning.

However if you are boiling in partial or full mash recipe already to help with hop addition then carry on. My original comments mainly apply to one step kit producers.

Regards

James​

I don't know if this is a 180.... opinion-wise

 

[Yuri_Rage]

It is not necessary to boil the extract. Even the kit directions don't tell you to boil the extract. The instructions are to add boiling water to the fermenter (which, if it's glass, is a bad idea). The reason for hot water is to make it easier to mix the liquid extract, not to sanitize.

His later comment isn't necessarily a change of heart. He already stated that boiling the extract may damage some of its flavor components. You do need to be aware that boiling a lower gravity wort will increase hop utilization, so be prepared to adjust your recipes when adding the extract late.

 

[Schlenkerla]

It is not necessary to boil the extract. Even the kit directions don't tell you to boil the extract. The instructions are to add boiling water to the fermenter (which, if it's glass, is a bad idea). The reason for hot water is to make it easier to mix the liquid extract, not to sanitize.

His later comment isn't necessarily a change of heart. He already stated that boiling the extract may damage some of its flavor components. You do need to be aware that boiling a lower gravity wort will increase hop utilization, so be prepared to adjust your recipes when adding the extract late.

I've done several No-Boil Hopped Extract kits. They are super clear w/ no chill haze. Many of my HB Club members are surprised on how clear they are, but I also bottle lager.

I thought the same thing with hops. How much less do you need if the wort gravity is 1.000? (Just water)

What is the hop utilization with just water? 50% 75% ???

1lb malt/gal @ 60 min is 30% - Boil Gravity 1.040​

Any ideas?

 

[Moonpile]

This is a great thread. Thanks for all the input and for bugging the malters for info. Priceless.

So I happened to have just read the section on "Trub and Hop Removal" in Papazian's "The Home Brewer's Companion" just before I read this thread. I'm currently brewing extract + steeped grains and I was not thinking that I had anything that might be dubbed trub in my wort after boiling a mix of DME and LME for 60 min. The only thing floating around in there is hops and irish moss. I had already come to the conclusion that, while he doesn't state it clearly, that section is really meant for all grainers or partial mashers who still have protiens that need to be removed.

It is puzzling that all the extract + grain steeping recipes call for boiling the extracts.

Since my buddies and I want to do a hefewiezen or wit next we're going to want to keep the color light. We might try the late addition.

I'm looking at ProMash and trying to figure out how to get it to calculate that. I tried setting the Boil Time (in the malt section to the right of the Pre-Boil button) to zero, but that had no effect on the Total IBU's, in the way that I has hoping/expected.

In fact, I'd have to say that it seems to produce an error! Try adding some *ME and some hops at 60 min. As you reduce the boil time the IBU's (both in the hops list and total) remain unchanged. Then jack up the hops. If the Boil Time is less than the Boil Time for the hops the row for the hops becomes "corrupted" with bad characters and all the data goes blank.

Can anyone else replicate this?

Does anyone have any suggestions for calculating hop contributions with a late *ME addition?

Moon

 

[Moonpile]

Here's a screen shot of the error. Seems like it's having problems when the hop boil time is longer than the malt boil time which will make caculating late malt additions impossible.

Moon

 

[Epictetus]

If you dont boil the extract you get cloudy beer, if you do you dont. I'm new but this has been true with all 5 of my brews so far so im sticking to it.

 

[BarleyWater]

My only cloudy beer (that wasn't a wheat) i boiled all the DME. Now I always do late additions, and have had great success.

I also don't suggest LME, I always seem to end up with a sweeter brew because, I assume, it gets overcarmelized.

Munton's has no boil kits, they thought you were talking about one of those, the malt in them is prehopped. You must do a boil if not using prehopped extract to add bitterness to offset the otherwise intense malt flavor.

I use Brewsmith, you can do late additions of extract with it.

 

[Schlenkerla]

In order and what they said is in blue.

Dear Customer,

QUESTION:
People in my home brewing community are saying that you no longer have to boil LME or DME for 60 minutes. Only 10-15 minutes. The claim is its not necessary since its already done in manufacturing of the malt. The motivation is so they don't caramelize the malt any more than necessary which would make their beers darker than the desired color.
Is this true? - Thanks!!

ANSWER:
To be honest with you don't need to boil Muntons LME or DME at all as we pasturise our LME and the DME, by the nature of the process, will be pasturised.
By not boiling you will maintain the delicate malt flavour in our products and obtain a far better beer.


Please feel free to get back to us for any further assistance.

Sincerely,
Ask Andy
www.muntons.com

James,

Is it also correct to say that you don't need to have a hot break to precipitate and coagulate proteins?

If you don't boil LME and DME won't your hop efficiency be high (much more bitter) since a 60 min boil would occur with just water and hops?

A lot, if not most, of the recipes out there always say to boil your malt. Most of the time it's the first addition to the boil. I'm guessing its been done mainly for sanitation and blending ease. Has the whole school of thought of boiling malt changed recently?

Thanks!

John

Dear John,

I miss understood your original question. Much literature in the homebrew trade has stated that you should boil kits when brewing to sanitise it. All I am saying is that this is not necessary as we already do this as we pasteurise the malt before canning.

However if you are boiling in partial or full mash recipe already to help with hop addition then carry on. My original comments mainly apply to one step kit producers.

Regards

James

James - Thanks for the quick reply.

I think most of the online community are doing extract brews with some specialty grains. Mainly starting with unhopped extract, specialty, grains and whatever hops they like. They question the need to boil the DME/LME with the bittering hops. I think the beer would have much higher IBU's without the malt in the boil. Am I wrong?


Yes I think you are right but we don't do a lot of mashing brewing work to know for definite.

Many thanks

James


Both questions where answered confirming you can do late malt additions and the beer will have a higher hop rate as result.

I don't feel that I learned anything new, nor do I feel inspired by their expertise

So the big question is how much less you should hop?

 

[DeathBrewer]

cool, i'm gonna give that a shot this weekend, maybe add at 40 minutes into boil right before flavoring hops

 

[pa-in-utah]

brewing a heffe saturday with DME and LME. I will add the DME close to the beginning of the boil and the LME at the end. Guess we will see.

Just brewed a belgian wit and it came out really really dark. I added all extract at the beginning of the boil. (Cuz the directions told me too).......

 

[bobbo]

So the big question is how much less you should hop?

It seems to me like this could get pretty confusing - if you have a low gravity for most of the boil, and then a higher gravity for the last 10 - 15 minutes, it would be pretty difficult to calculate the hop utilization. Perhaps it would be easier if you just boiled with the lower gravity for the full 60 minutes and did some math or used some software to calculate the IBUs with the lower gravity. Then, add the bulk of the extract at flame-out and let it sit for 15 minutes to pasteurize (like HB99 mentioned above). After the 15 minutes, cool the wort and pitch yeast. It seems like this would work, unless there's going to be much utilization while it sits for 15 minutes after flame-out. I'm not sure how may IBUs would be added when the water's not boiling.
Anyways, if sitting for 15 minutes after flame-out isn't going to affect the IBU count, then it would be pretty straightforward to calculate the utilization with the lower gravity during the boil. That being said, I don't know how this would affect the flavor and aroma - I don't think you can calculate that. Are these two qualities affected by the boil gravity?
Of course, I've never done the late extract add, so this is all just guessing. I do want to try it for my next beer though. If anyone can verify what I'm thinking, or tell me that I'm completely wrong, I'd appreciate it!

 

[GoBrewers]

The "Wealth of Information" sticky in general discussion led me to this page,
which lists Glenn Tinseth's data on hop utilization (HU) both as a function of boil time and of wort gravity. We are primarily concerned with HU as a function of varying gravity, since the 60 minute hop addition is the one that extracts the most bitterness. So I plugged in his values for HU in a 60 minute boil against increasing wort gravity. The resulting curve is not quite linear - slightly logarithmic, and it may offer a fair representation of AA extraction in different concentrations of wort. I'm not quite sure what the utilization "units" refer to, but its not that important, since they are all relative to each other.

This is what it looks like:


According to that, of you were shooting for a wort gravity of 1.050 (HU=0.24), the HU in water (SG = 1.000) would be around 0.36, which is a 50% increase.

So if you trust those numbers, I guess cutting your hop addition by a third might be the way to go, at least in the case of a 1.050 OG. Of course, this is all on paper. The actual gravity doesn't stay constant in a 60 minute boil - water evaporates and it increases. But it might be a good starting point. Only one way to find out, I guess!

This thread has been extremely informative. Thanks everyone!

 

[Moonpile]

We just did a hefe with the DME added at the beginning of 60 min boil and LME added at flameout. Lightest in color of any wort I've ever made. Of course I have mostly made beers that are intentionally dark in the past.

We'll see how it goes!

 

[uuurang]

Hey, this might help with my search for a "light" beer to brew. trying to cater to older women that prefer a "light" beer.

gotta get a beer ready for a high school graduation party in june.

 

[Kayos]

I am making alehole's SNPA clone

grain bill:

1lb. Crystal 60
5.5 Lbs Light DME

.5 Yakima Magnum 60
.5 Perle 30
1 Cascade 10
2 Cascade 0

If I add the DME at the end, are you telling me that this APA will turn into a super IIPA? I think it is about 56 IBU's

 

[Yuri_Rage]

If I add the DME at the end, are you telling me that this APA will turn into a super IIPA? I think it is about 56 IBU's

With a full boil, adding the extract at the beginning, you're looking at about 34 IBUs.

If you add the extract late, it jumps to 52 IBUs.

IIRC, you'd need to increase the alcohol as well to call it a IIPA, but if you add the extract late, you could certainly call it an IPA.

 

[Kayos]

With a full boil, adding the extract at the beginning, you're looking at about 34 IBUs.

If you add the extract late, it jumps to 52 IBUs.

IIRC, you'd need to increase the alcohol as well to call it a IIPA, but if you add the extract late, you could certainly call it an IPA.

I am using the calc. on tastybrew.com...it must be off then. I want the SNPA clone taste, not an IPA. This is going to be an easy-drinker, just an APA. Suggestions as to what to change the hop additions to? Hoping to add the DME at flameout.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I am using the calc. on tastybrew.com...it must be off then. I want the SNPA clone taste, not an IPA. This is going to be an easy-drinker, just an APA. Suggestions as to what to change the hop additions to? Hoping to add the DME at flameout.

I wasn't sure whether your calculation was for early or late extract addition, so I did my own. Hop utilization algorithms are always estimates, and there are a lot of different ways of calculating IBUs. So, it's not surprising that tastybrew.com differed just a bit from the BeerSmith calcs I used.

To keep your brew closer to the original recipe with a late extract addition, cut the first two additions down to .25 oz each. That yields about 26 IBUs.