Explaining BIAB to New Brewer

[Morrey]

I brewed with extract in the late 80's early 90's before home brewing really took off like it is today. I wasn't happy with my beers and all but stopped when I got back into it and did an extract kit before discovering BIAB all grain. I have seen 3 vessel brewing done and even helped a buddy with a 3V keggle setup, but I have never really gotten too deep into 3V brewing since BIAB is doing all I can possibly hope for.

So my brother in law becomes interested in brewing and asks tons of questions. Actually they are some good questions and he makes good sense asking all he can before jumping on a system sight unseen.

Someone has sold him on the fact that a MLT or similar system will brew better beer...or at least give him an advantage over BIAB. But I explain to him with my mill set up tight so I can grind finely, I get 83% efficiency as a normal process. I use an Arbor Fab basket with a press plate and can sparge/press the grain bed darn near dry. I suppose 3V is excellent, but can they grind as fine as I can and not get stuck sparges?

Basically, if he has the right place (shed with rafters for a pulley, is there a strong argument for 3V over BIAB? I know the advantages of BIAB, but what should he consider about 3V that I frankly don't know to tell him?

 

[thekraken]

Someone has sold him on the fact that a MLT or similar system will brew better beer...or at least give him an advantage over BIAB. But I explain to him with my mill set up tight so I can grind finely, I get 83% efficiency as a normal process. I use an Arbor Fab basket with a press plate and can sparge/press the grain bed darn near dry. I suppose 3V is excellent, but can they grind as fine as I can and not get stuck sparges?

My first response is I would like to know why they argue that a 3v system would brew better beer. 83% efficiency is plenty efficient. I don't think that we should be concerned much at all with maximizing efficiency at the homebrew level. And more efficient extraction certainly does not equal better beer.

Basically, if he has the right place (shed with rafters for a pulley, is there a strong argument for 3V over BIAB? I know the advantages of BIAB, but what should he consider about 3V that I frankly don't know to tell him?

About the only advantage I can think of for a multi vessel system is you generally can get a larger brewing capacity... I don't know if that's still true either.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I don't know what to say really, some are hell bent and convinced on 3v.

Some think the "look" of a 3 keggle system is so cool, yet some of us know how damn heavy those keggles are and what a pain in the ass they are to deal with.

Best to give him the option of BIAB, with the consideration that if he wants to expand to multi vessel the only sunk cost is a bag

BIAB stovetop is an option as well....3V in swmbo's kitchen maybe not as friendly.

 

[timdillon36]

Where to start?

$Cost$

1 kettle, 1 burner and 1 bag vs 3 kettles or a combination of kettles and coolers and maybe 2 or 3 burners plus plumbing and what not.

$Cleanup, see above.

Storage

3V or 4 like the big guys use is great for back to back brews but i think BIAB is great on the home scale.

 

[McGarnigle]

But I explain to him with my mill set up tight so I can grind finely, I get 83% efficiency as a normal process

I'm not sure this argument is even necessary. I may be misremembering, but I recall the early justification of BIAB was that if you get a little worse efficiency, no big deal, you just use more grains in your recipe. Maybe you pay $1 more a batch, but you don't have to buy a whole system, and it's easier to do, etc.

That's changed now, and BIAB has proven to achieve high efficiency.

 

[Morrey]

Best to give him the option of BIAB, with the consideration that if he wants to expand to multi vessel the only sunk cost is a bag

I think, Mike, that if he starts BIAB he will never look back. A Wilser bag is a mighty minimal investment compared to 3 keggles or coolers or kettles...or whatever. If he doesn't like his bag he can always give it to me...lol! Plus the equipment for BIAB can be used for 3V if he is hell bent for whatever reason.

As far as better beer from 3V...I seriously doubt that is true. Someone is trying to sell him something and we all know this is likely a crock.

 

[Morrey]

I'm not sure this argument is even necessary. I may be misremembering, but I recall the early justification of BIAB was that if you get a little worse efficiency, no big deal, you just use more grains in your recipe. Maybe you pay $1 more a batch, but you don't have to buy a whole system, and it's easier to do, etc.

That's changed now, and BIAB has proven to achieve high efficiency.

Someone has undoubtedly told him or he has read about efficiency. While we all agree this is not a number to chase, consistency is the bigger goal to me. Granted I get 83% from a good crush with BIAB, but most importantly I get this regularly so my recipes and gravities are spot on. It is hard to explain all this to someone who hasn't really seen it for himself yet. Unfortunately he is the type who will impulsively buy something w/o really understanding what he needs...yet. I am going to get him to read this thread* so he can see that others (not only me) can attest to the value and simplicity of BIAB.

*Then he reads the part about being impulsive and he can get his butt on his shoulders with me.

 

[wilserbrewer]

The difference is that with BIAB you are removing the spent grain from the wort vs removing the wort from the spent grain.

Logically speaking, isn't it simpler and easier to remove the portion you don't want, rather than remove the portion you want?

 

[d3track]

If you are going to send him to this thread, I will add this:

It's just two ways to get to the same result. I do both 3 vessel and BIAB brewing, and both are great processes to enjoy home brewing. Going with either method is not a "wrong choice" - that, IMHO, is not the correct message to send.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I If he doesn't like his bag he can always give it to me...lol! .

Or he can sell it here on the classifieds, lol I have seen it I swear. Bags have residual value lol

 

[Morrey]

If you are going to send him to this thread, I will add this:

It's just two ways to get to the same result. I do both 3 vessel and BIAB brewing, and both are great processes to enjoy home brewing. Going with either method is not a "wrong choice" - that, IMHO, is not the correct message to send.

And you make a good point. I see him leaning to 3V, and unfortunately, he hasn't fully evaluated the big picture which includes BIAB as a solid choice. Most of us who use a particular system tend to think the system we are using may be the best, naturally. Your point offers value in that you do both systems.

I think I'll ask him to join me and do a start to finish (inc cleanup) BIAB to evaluate my process. I have another buddy who does 3V and hope to arrange the same evaluation process so he can see both systems operating. THEN, I feel he can make a good choice w/o someone trying to sell him a system he has no idea what he is buying.

 

[McGarnigle]

Someone has undoubtedly told him or he has read about efficiency. While we all agree this is not a number to chase, consistency is the bigger goal to me. Granted I get 83% from a good crush with BIAB, but most importantly I get this regularly so my recipes and gravities are spot on.

Yes. I'd much rather always get 75% than sometimes get 85%, but other times get 65%. I do think we sometimes brag too much about high efficiency without emphasizing consistency.

Your friend is probably seeing a lot of history talking about the ideal 3V system. And certainly a 3V system *looks* impressive. Has he seen a stainless steel conical yet? Maybe he'll want one of those.

 

[Morrey]

Yes. I'd much rather always get 75% than sometimes get 85%, but other times get 65%. I do think we sometimes brag too much about high efficiency without emphasizing consistency.

Your friend is probably seeing a lot of history talking about the ideal 3V system. And certainly a 3V system *looks* impressive. Has he seen a stainless steel conical yet? Maybe he'll want one of those.

Absolutely. We all like good efficiencies as it tells us we are doing something right. But it needs to be "all the time right" and not hit or miss.

Yes! He is well attracted to "bling". You should see his Harley...if it is chromed, he has it for sure!

 

[Murphys_Law]

Did they say 'why' 3V is better than BIAB using facts and logic?

 

[soccerdad]

Has he brewed with both BIAB and 3V? Easy to invite him to do both and sample beer from each method.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I'm tired of the 3V terminology, when I batch sparge using a MT, I just heat some sparge water in a HDPE bucket with a heat stick even though I have several spare stainless kettles hanging in the brewery.

Who really needs 3V's anyways now that Kai has proven that a cold sparge is just as effective as a hot sparge?

BIAB vs 2V?

It's really just a matter of removing the spent grain from the desirable wort.

 

[phendog]

I love BIAB. I usually do traditional all grain with a HLT, MLT w/recirc & fly sparge and BK, but it's an 8hr day with clean up. Today I did a BIAB - mostly because I wanted to brew, but didn't have a lot of time. I brewed the Dr. Smurto's Golden Ale BIAB recipe that's in the Beer Smith Samples folder - and did it in 4 hours. Oh,... Damit - forgot the whirlflock!!

Beersmith said OG would be 1.047. Well,... I got a 1.060. Unless the LHBS snuck an extra pound of 2 Row in my grain bill, I'm not sure what's going on. Not totally relevant, but my point (I think) is there is NOTHING wrong with BIAB. Two of my best beers to date have been BIAB despite all the rich kid equipment I have. Will probably do these more frequently in the future.

RDWAHAH(BIAB)

 

[Morrey]

I love BIAB. I usually do traditional all grain with a HLT, MLT w/recirc & fly sparge and BK, but it's an 8hr day with clean up. Today I did a BIAB - mostly because I wanted to brew, but didn't have a lot of time. I brewed the Dr. Smurto's Golden Ale BIAB recipe that's in the Beer Smith Samples folder - and did it in 4 hours. Oh,... Damit - forgot the whirlflock!!

Beersmith said OG would be 1.047. Well,... I got a 1.060. Unless the LHBS snuck an extra pound of 2 Row in my grain bill, I'm not sure what's going on. Not totally relevant, but my point (I think) is there is NOTHING wrong with BIAB. Two of my best beers to date have been BIAB despite all the rich kid equipment I have. Will probably do these more frequently in the future.

RDWAHAH(BIAB)

If all said and done the beer from both processes is really close in quality, the streamlined cleanup efforts alone of BIAB certainly make this process attractive to me.

I have timed my last umpteen BIAB batches and 3.5 hours I am done inc cleanup. I don't have much actual multi-vessel brewing experience, but as you said above, the time factor increases a good amount it appears.

But to be fair, I want him to experience both processes and see for himself what he personally is attracted to. Just because I am a BIAB brewer doesn't necessarily mean he will be in the long run.

 

[Morrey]

Did they say 'why' 3V is better than BIAB using facts and logic?

No, in fact he has no clue about either system. He is just starting (has done two stovetop extract kits) and I wanted to show him there are at least a couple of ways to go about AG brewing. Somebody showed him a 3 keggle system on a fancy custom burner stand with pumps, sparge arms..etc, so he got in his head this is what he needs. I just want him to slow down and check out all the options before spending that kind of cash on something he knows virtually nothing about....yet.

 

[troglodytes]

I just did a BIAB for the first time after having a 2V homebrew setup for the past several years. Not only is the BIAB more attractive as a starting option due to a smaller initial investment as well as cleanup time; but it can also optimize certain aspects of you brewing process.

You can do a hybrid BIAB for extremely cheap and not have the size limitations as you would in a kettle. I have changed my process to mashing with a brewbag in my tun. I can stir more completely without the manifold in the way and quicker for less temp loss. Then instead of a standard transfer I can pull the bag, quick transfer to the kettle and start to heat as I then "batch sparge" after putting the bag back into the tun with my sparge water. Stirring for a couple minutes and then repeating the transfer. The thing is this is an even better sparge than I would have gotten with my old setup as a batch sparge is supposed to be done fast. Well, there's nothing faster than instantly pulling a bag out of liquid.

I have started to save myself 20 minutes of work, plus about 5-10 minutes of heating. I have increased my efficiency by 10% (and consistency especially when there is lots of wheat or rye involved). And I have no batch size limitations other than what my previous system already had. If I had been up on this hybrid BIAB from the beginning I would have just started there with minimal cost (igloo cooler, ball valve setup, tubing, brew bag) @ about $100 out of pocket total.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Somebody showed him a 3 keggle system on a fancy custom burner stand with pumps, sparge arms..etc, so he got in his head this is what he needs.

The 3 keggle / three burner system was very popular about ten years ago. I watched someone brew on one at a group brew, and what I witnessed confirmed my beliefs that this type of system is a big pain in the ass to brew on, and the only thing that impresses (to a noob) is the visual appeal of the massive heavy kettles. The bottom chine gets dangerously hot when heating and will brand a body part if you happen to touch it, a kettle bottom only will get as hot as the wort, but a heated keg chine likely goes to 400-500 degrees, dangerous! Cleaning grain bits from a keggle mash tun is a trick as well, rinse and dump and there are always a few bits left...the brewer I watched had to hold the heavy keg near upside down while trying to hose it out...he was working his ass off cleaning and dumping those heavy keggles working outside in a driveway, whereas a 15 gallon kettle can be cleaned and rinsed in a kitchen sink with the sprayer.

The biggest joke about keggles for how heavy and bulky they are, a keggle system is borderline too small for 10 gallon batches, what good is that???

Can you tell I don't think much of keggles? I wish everyone would stop cutting apart wonderful serving vessels (kegs) and turning them into lousy brew kettles, mash tuns and HLT's.

You couldn't give me a 3 keggle system, well maybe you could, but I guarantee it would be on CL the following day.

 

[Morrey]

The 3 keggle / three burner system was very popular about ten years ago. I watched someone brew on one at a group brew.

Brother in Law visited a Homebrew Store and the owner had this system for sale. Not sure if it was his personally or if he was selling it on consignment, but he was doing a sales pitch for sure. To me this system looks cumbersome and hard to handle. I like simplicity where there are fewer components as anything can break or go wrong.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Interesting, I wonder why the system is for sale....lol!!!

 

[k1ngl1ves]

If all said and done the beer from both processes is really close in quality, the streamlined cleanup efforts alone of BIAB certainly make this process attractive to me.

I have timed my last umpteen BIAB batches and 3.5 hours I am done inc cleanup. I don't have much actual multi-vessel brewing experience, but as you said above, the time factor increases a good amount it appears.

But to be fair, I want him to experience both processes and see for himself what he personally is attracted to. Just because I am a BIAB brewer doesn't necessarily mean he will be in the long run.

I use a cooler with a bag, and a boil kettle. Heat my water for batch sparging in the kettle while the mash is going on. Dump the water in a bucket, collect my runnings, batch sparge with the bucket water and stir vigorously. Clean out the cooler and bag while heating my full volume. This way everything is clean 10 minutes after I transfer to a fermenter. I only heat the sparge so I can get a boil faster.

I like the feel of a 2 vessel system. That's the only reason why I don't full on biab. My choice. My hobby. Lol!

 

[Onkel_Udo]

As someone who did a gravity, propane 3-tier for almost 15 years and has now done electric (all analogue) eBiaB for a little less than 2 years I can provide a bit of insight.

Pro's 3 tier propane:
Back to back brewing adds only the time of the boil to each additional batch

Pro's eBiaB:
Setup is 2 minutes
Clean up is about 15 minutes
"Active" brewing time where you are watching or doing something about 1.5 hours
Foot print of brewery proper is about 4 sq ft (for a 10 gallon finished product setup)
Initial cost can be under $200
Consistency is actually easier to achieve if you can brew indoors due to stable temperatures
Splitting a brew day up into mash in the morning, boil in the evening is easy...so I can brew on weekdays

Con's 3-tier Propane:
Propane cost
Outdoor brewing in <40 f or >80 f is unpleasant
Has to be watched if the burner is lit
Longer session time if only doing one batch
Normal footprint is about 12 sq ft
Clean-up is about 45 minutes though much of it can be done while watching the burners
Setup is about 15 minutes
Consistency is harder to achieve at temperatures under 40 f

Con's eBiab:
In my case slightly lower efficiency

 

[Morrey]

As someone who did a gravity, propane 3-tier for almost 15 years and has now done electric (all analogue) eBiaB for a little less than 2 years I can provide a bit of insight.

Pro's 3 tier propane:
Back to back brewing adds only the time of the boil to each additional batch

Pro's eBiaB:
Setup is 2 minutes
Clean up is about 15 minutes
"Active" brewing time where you are watching or doing something about 1.5 hours
Foot print of brewery proper is about 4 sq ft (for a 10 gallon finished product setup)
Initial cost can be under $200
Consistency is actually easier to achieve if you can brew indoors due to stable temperatures
Splitting a brew day up into mash in the morning, boil in the evening is easy...so I can brew on weekdays

Con's 3-tier Propane:
Propane cost
Outdoor brewing in <40 f or >80 f is unpleasant
Has to be watched if the burner is lit
Longer session time if only doing one batch
Normal footprint is about 12 sq ft
Clean-up is about 45 minutes though much of it can be done while watching the burners
Setup is about 15 minutes
Consistency is harder to achieve at temperatures under 40 f

Con's eBiab:
In my case slightly lower efficiency

You are experienced in both processes. Do you feel that one process produces better beer than the other?

 

[Morrey]

I use a cooler with a bag, and a boil kettle. Heat my water for batch sparging in the kettle while the mash is going on. Dump the water in a bucket, collect my runnings, batch sparge with the bucket water and stir vigorously. Clean out the cooler and bag while heating my full volume. This way everything is clean 10 minutes after I transfer to a fermenter. I only heat the sparge so I can get a boil faster.

I like the feel of a 2 vessel system. That's the only reason why I don't full on biab. My choice. My hobby. Lol!

He may very well like the feel of 2V or multi-vessel and go that route. I have no clue the numbers, but if we polled AG brewers, my guess is that multi-vessel brewers outnumber BIAB brewers. No matter the direction he heads I'll support him, but hope he takes the pros and cons of all under advisement.

 

[wilserbrewer]

No matter the direction he heads I'll support him,

Just don't offer to help him with the keggles, you'll regret it for sure lol

 

[Onkel_Udo]

You are experienced in both processes. Do you feel that one process produces better beer than the other?

For the most part no difference. My results are slightly more consistent with indoor brewing than outdoor.

 

[Morrey]

For the most part no difference. My results are slightly more consistent with indoor brewing than outdoor.

Makes perfect sense in that you are eliminating many of the ambient variables associated with outdoor brewing.

 

[toadyus]

Two 3v brewers in my HBC almost fell off their chairs the other night when I told them it takes me 3 hours to brew with BIAB and that included setup and cleanup. lol

 

[Morrey]

My BIAB this past weekend took me 3 hours and 15 minutes. It goes up a few minutes in the summer when I have to shift to a recirc ice bath for IC cooling, but 3 hours and 30 minutes is about my overall average.

 

[brewgeek]

I don't post much but have been brewing since about 1992. Actually, I got super involved in it and became a BJCP judge and brewed hundreds of batches of beer. I was never happy with the results in that I couldn't make a beer that tasted decent IMHO. I stopped in about 1998 actively brewing. Got married, had some kids, really got into wine. Recently a friend wanted to get into brewing so I dug out some old equipment and we brewed some 10 gallon batches in an Igloo cooler, cut off keg boiling pot setup. I made some really good beer... Then about 2 months ago I stumbled across the BIAB setup. I dug out my 7 gallon pot and bought a mesh bag at my local homebrew shop and made a 3 gallon batch. It was like a light bulb went on in my head! I didn't need to sparge anymore? I'm like, who cares about efficiency at this size of brewing? Plus I could do it all indoors in my kitchen! I'm telling you, I'm never going back!

 

[Weezy]

It comes down to personal preference. Is every process I know if and answer questions along the way. We need to espouse good habits that lead to repeatable, quality brewing sessions. We need to talk down bad habits like secondaries, even if your current process still uses them, etc.

Queue the LODO guys who take over any process related thread in...3...2...1

 

[4of7]

I brewed with extract in the late 80's early 90's before home brewing really took off like it is today. I wasn't happy with my beers and all but stopped when I got back into it and did an extract kit before discovering BIAB all grain. I have seen 3 vessel brewing done and even helped a buddy with a 3V keggle setup, but I have never really gotten too deep into 3V brewing since BIAB is doing all I can possibly hope for.

So my brother in law becomes interested in brewing and asks tons of questions. Actually they are some good questions and he makes good sense asking all he can before jumping on a system sight unseen.

Someone has sold him on the fact that a MLT or similar system will brew better beer...or at least give him an advantage over BIAB. But I explain to him with my mill set up tight so I can grind finely, I get 83% efficiency as a normal process. I use an Arbor Fab basket with a press plate and can sparge/press the grain bed darn near dry. I suppose 3V is excellent, but can they grind as fine as I can and not get stuck sparges?

Basically, if he has the right place (shed with rafters for a pulley, is there a strong argument for 3V over BIAB? I know the advantages of BIAB, but what should he consider about 3V that I frankly don't know to tell him?

2v ebiab, 15 gallon kettle,10 gallon batches,50l kegmenter, 3.5-4 HR Brew day..."Stay strong and Brew on"... Oh yeah I like it