Experiment idea... No boil AG beer???

[bullinachinashop]

What about just boiling through hot break and increasing the bittering hops. Or using hop oils for bittering, 10 min hop addition for flavor and flame out addition for aroma?
You still reduce the energy used to boil for an hour. JMO

 

[BrewSpook]

Not a bad idea... I will probably check that out if the original experiment doesn't work.

I haven't done it yet, got slammed with a test in linear algebra and integrated circuits this week, spent the weekend studying for those. Shooting for Thanksgiving I think, 3 batches - 1 no boil, and 2 standard no sparge.

 

[Revvy]

Glad to see this thread is still going and the responses are helpful and positive. I saw your initial post and the second post about lacto, and thought that this really interesting discussion would take a turn for the negative (like often happens when someone proposes a new idea on here, though usuallly those aren't very well thought out.) I think this has some merit, maybe not on the homebrew scale (at least not for a basic trukeyfryer and cooler homebrewer), but could see this on a commercial level.



Now get you ass back to work on it.

 

[Chemkrafty]

I second bullinachinashop...if your are looking at energy reduction, you don't HAVE to go all the way to zero boil. Although it appears there may be other benefits to doing so. Definitely keep a short boil in your back pocket as I guarantee you can generate some mad energy savings through a reduction in boil time to 15 min from 60 or 90 min.

 

[Hermit]

Let me say again. Hop oil.

 

[Skyforger]

This is interesting. I'm actually not sure sanitation would be the biggest problem; few bacteria can survive mash temps very well. You may consider using campden tablets if you want to be really safe, though personally I'd rather not.
Problems may include hopping issues; Hermit's suggestion of hop oil is solid if this turns out to be a problem. Just using more hops in a small amount of water would probably work well on a small scale, but try to find a brewery enthusiastic about having to buy twice the hops for their beer. If you want aroma hops, you might consider dry-hopping.
Another, probably smaller, concern is that you miss out on any caramelization that takes place in the kettle. For ordinary boil times this is minimal, but you may consider adding a touch more caramel or other specialty malt to compensate. Or you could add a bit of brewer's caramel.

 

[MonkeyWrench]

There have been late addition IPA recipes on here before, where you didn't add any hops until 20 min. Sure, you needed 3 or 4 times the amount of hops to get the bitterness you needed in an IPA, but you also got massive flavor and aroma.

I'd be interested in trying this with only a 20 min boil. A nice experiment would be to make the same recipe, boil one 60 min, boil the other 20 min. If this would turn out a good product, it would make a convenient house IPA.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Well, I 'm putting together a recipe to try this with;
12.5 gal preboil
11 gal batch

18# 2 row
2# vienna
1# c 40
1# c 20
1# carapils

2.5 oz Warrior 17.2AA 15 min pellet
1 oz Centennial 9.9 AA 10 min leaf
1 oz Corriander cracked 10 min
1 oz Cascade 5.75AA 1 min leaf
8 sweet oranges added to primary(peeled, chopped, brought up to 160 for 5 min and cooled to pitching temp 63degrees)
1 oz Cascade 5.75AA dry hop

90 min mash @ 152
90 min fly sparge w 180 degree water.

Target OG 1.061
Target FG 1.015
ABV 6.19%
IBU 41

15 min total boil time.
Thoughts?

 

[BrewSpook]

Glad to see this thread is still going and the responses are helpful and positive. I saw your initial post and the second post about lacto, and thought that this really interesting discussion would take a turn for the negative (like often happens when someone proposes a new idea on here, though usuallly those aren't very well thought out.) I think this has some merit, maybe not on the homebrew scale (at least not for a basic trukeyfryer and cooler homebrewer), but could see this on a commercial level.



Now get you ass back to work on it.

Thanks Revvy,

Yeah the plan is to see if the concept works. If it does I plan on building a larger 1bbl+ system as a pilot for the brewery. With all said and done -hoping to increase the design to a 7bbl brewery with a total reduction in the range of 60% less energy usage and about 40% less water usage, total including cleaning water.

Everyone else... Hop oil is definitely an option - although I wanted to see what the utilization will be with just wort hopping at different times/rates... and the whole idea of no boil would be not having a kettle, less footprint=more room for other toys

With my current setup I can get full conversion of 14 lbs of grain in about 25 minutes doing no sparge. If I can really bring it down to maybe a 45 minute mash with hops added every 15 minutes, a 15 minute mashout/recirc and then chill right into the fermenter. then dryhop the hell out of it.

Lots of ideas, but right now I have modern physics, linear algebra, and integrated circuits tests to study for. Back to the books!

 

[mrkeeg]

Not a nay-sayer... DO this experiment and let us know!

Just came across something to consider or put in your report for interest. From Fix's "principles of brewing science"

"[calcium ions] continue to interact with malt phosphate during wort boiling ... the primary reason that wort pH decreases in the kettle boil."

No idea what that might do to the final beer... leave it at a higher pH? So what?

 

[raestlyn]

No idea what that might do to the final beer... leave it at a higher pH? So what?

Yes, and that is easily fixed with adding Vitamin C if the pH is too high for the yeast. In small amounts it won't change the flavor of the beer.

 

[BrewSpook]

Not a nay-sayer... DO this experiment and let us know!

Just came across something to consider or put in your report for interest. From Fix's "principles of brewing science"

"[calcium ions] continue to interact with malt phosphate during wort boiling ... the primary reason that wort pH decreases in the kettle boil."

No idea what that might do to the final beer... leave it at a higher pH? So what?

I've got a batch of ph strips that I haven't used yet... might have to break them out and see what happens.

I have a brew day planned for Saturday.... Got a friend doing his first batch of extract while I try an ESB for the experiment, then another batch of my pecan brown and a blonde for the War Department. Should be a big day.. pork shoulder on the smoker and cleaning out the pipeline. Man, I need to brew more.

 

[bullinachinashop]

There have been late addition IPA recipes on here before, where you didn't add any hops until 20 min. Sure, you needed 3 or 4 times the amount of hops to get the bitterness you needed in an IPA, but you also got massive flavor and aroma.

I'd be interested in trying this with only a 20 min boil. A nice experiment would be to make the same recipe, boil one 60 min, boil the other 20 min. If this would turn out a good product, it would make a convenient house IPA.

I may consider this for Friday's brew. Thinking out loud...
Collect 13 gal wort in kettle, stir, drain 6.5 to bottling bucket and set aside, complete 15 min boil with chiller in wort to sanitize, move chiller to primary bucket, gently drain kettle into primary and start chiller.
Then drain wort from bottling bucket into kettle and start 1 hour boil. etc.

I will have to adjust the preboil volumes to end @ 5.5 gal to primary and that will affect my gravity between the 2 batches.

Any ideas on how to end with the same gravity short of adding water to the longer boil batch?

Bull

 

[bullinachinashop]

I should only have to adjust the bittering hop amount to achieve the same IBU's

I boil off about 1.5 gal per hour in my kettle, so I'll need 7 gal in my 1 hour boil and 6.17 gal in my 15 min boil.

......

 

[bullinachinashop]

If I collect 13.2 gal wort @ 1.051
1 hour boil looks like this 51x7=357/5.5= 64.9 or 1.065 OG
15 min boil looks like this 51x6.2=316.2/5.5= 57.4 or 1.0574 OG

So I'll need to add just over 1# DME to the short boil

Someone please check my math.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Anyone???

Bump

 

[foltster]

Adding water to the longer boil seems like it would make more sense. That math should be easy.

 

[BrewSpook]

If I collect 13.2 gal wort @ 1.051
1 hour boil looks like this 51x7=357/5.5= 64.9 or 1.065 OG
15 min boil looks like this 51x6.2=316.2/5.5= 57.4 or 1.0574 OG

So I'll need to add just over 1# DME to the short boil

Someone please check my math.

Will you really boil off .7 gallons in 15 minutes? Seems like an awful lot. (6.2-5.5=.7)

To continue the math - 1.5gallons lost in an hour would roughly equate to .375 gallons in 15 minutes
51*5.875=299.6/5.5=54.5 or 1.055ish guess that's close.

 

[Rossnaree]

Way out there but not entirely off the wall -- Since ONE of the reasons for boil is volume reduction (well, not a major reason but you get my meaning), why not consider throwing vacuum into the equation? "Boil" occurs at significantly lower temperatures and, while this information comes from studying fuel ethanol production I am NOT promoting anything to do with distillation, vacuum distillation significantly reduces energy input. The drawback is increased up-front costs, but we already thoroughly know that argument from the standpoint of going AG (one-time expense; brewing more reduces the per-run cost etc.). While this may not answer the hops isomerization issue, I think that was already well covered early on in this thread with using hop oil. Dry-hopping would also be useful. Also, I know several local guys that use vacuum for producing maple syrup and they realize some huge energy savings. Other local guys use old Navy desalination/RO (sp?) equipment to remove the water from the sap. Both groups produce great maple syrup, both use a great deal less energy.

Take it for what it's worth, I have no idea if it'd be useful.

- Tim the Yeast Pimp

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

How do you vent steam under a vacuum (unless it is a constant run type vacuum pump)? I would think that you might have a problem with lighter beers that need a long boil to drive off all the DMS and precursors, but barring that it sounds like an interesting idea.

 

[BrewSpook]

So tomorrow is the day. Here is an overview of what I will be doing.
6.8 gallons of water to 158 degrees

Recipe used: ESB
10lbs British Pale
10oz Crystal 60
4oz Biscuit Malt
4oz Crystal 120

Mash hopping
1.5oz EKG 60min
.25oz EKG 20min
.25oz Fuggles 20min
.25oz EKG 5min
.25oz Fuggles 5min

Mash 154 for 60 minutes
ramp to 170 for 10 minutes and drain through cfc to fermenter

5 minutes CO2 scrub to remove DMS

aerate, pitch 1pkg S-04

Primary 21 days

dry hop .5oz ekg, .5oz fuggles last 7 days

keg, force carb 2.0 vol

****I am hoping that hop utilization will be encouraged by no sparge continuous recirc. The 154 degree water and movement of recirculation will wash AA from hops.*****

Any last minute suggestions? Going to LHBS at 10am tomorrow.

 

[theschick]

Nothing to add, other than good luck!

 

[McCuckerson]

Wow, I thought no-chills were exciting! This is awesome!

 

[BrewSpook]

Nothing to add, other than good luck!

Thanks! Olathe huh? I went to high school in OP - got a few friends that lived in Olathe once upon a time

 

[Zeward]

You might be able to get good isomerization of AA from hops faster by using a small pressure cooker and increasing the pH of the hop water slightly. The pressure would increase the speed of the boil and hopefully utilization of hops. As I recall you get higher hop utilization out of a slightly higher pH also.

I am not sure how much of a increase you will get. It may not be worth it. Though if it did work it would be a great way for how brewers to make dilute hop extract at home. It should store for a while without too much degradation. If I had a way of testing AA's I would try it out.

 

[BrewSpook]

SUCCESS! Brew completed...

Tips for anyone trying this.. Use whole hops, not pellets. The hop pellets created a film across the grain bed and I had problems with stuck recirc.

All in all it went very well. The after the mash I pumped the wort straight from MLT through my CFC with a prechiller sitting in ice. Wort came out at 58 degrees, I actually had to let it sit and warm up before I pitched. 5.25 gallons at 1.0535

I scrubbed DMS with CO2 using a coil of soft copper tubing with 1/16th holes drilled in it. I will taste again before kegging and possibly scrub again if needed. You could smell it coming out for a minute or so then it died off.

I think I will do 2 week in primary, with dry hops during 2nd week and then transfer to secondary and maybe add gelatin if its needs clearing - Im not sure how well irish moss works in the mash.

So now the waiting begins.

 

[McCuckerson]

Im not sure how well irish moss works in the mash.

I put Irish moss in the HDPE container I use for no-chills. Its equal to about 20min of utilization.... Anyway, have you thought of no-chilling this one? 170 right into an HDPE container, let it chill, then scrub with CO2? Oh man the BEER GODs are angry with this one! POL where the hell are you!!!!!!!! We need you right now!!!!

 

[McCuckerson]

I really want to believe that the mash pasteurizes the wort but I'm just not 100% sure. Therefore, I think boiling for 10 minutes is kinda necessary.

And with no boil, do you think there might be problems with haze because you don't get a hot break?

And finally, I don't think your hop method will get the bitterness required. I don't know the exact minimum temp for isomerization to occur, but I believe it's in the 170s.

Both hot break and cold break are complete BS. Read some threads on no-chills. Fear and hate propagated by the LHBS

 

[McCuckerson]

got slammed with a test in linear algebra

LA sucks, it made me lose hair, LOL

 

[BrewSpook]

LA sucks, it made me lose hair, LOL

Mine was already going, I think this semester might just finish it off.

It sucks being THAT guy... a 30yo vet in a class of 20 year old punks. I kinda want to punch them all in the junk.