Experiment idea... No boil AG beer???

[BrewSpook]

Its bubbling away really well now. The sample I tasted going into primary was good... lacking on bitterness, but then again its hard to tell at that point. Im guna dry hop the hell out of it and see, but for now its looking good.

Can you imagine being able to cut AG batch time down to 1hr... Id brew everyday

 

[BrewSpook]

Well folks I popped her open today to dry.hop, and I took a sample. I was a litle dissapointed with the bitterness, but it is there. Then again - its not done fermenting yet (only 7 days in)

beautiful color though and it tasted pretty good. will give it 1 week - 10 days with dry hops - transfer to secondary and clear with gelatin, then keg.

So far - I am pleased. next time whole cone hops and more of them.

 

[BrewSpook]

Ok folks... I need some input. thinking about my options if the bitterness is still not there when the beer finishes up. not saying that I am going to do anything, but I am just exploring those options now so I can be ready when the time comes.

What I am thinking is taking 1oz of EKG and boiling with 1.5qt water and a little DME for an hour. This should extract the bitterness from the hops and keep the liquid addition to a minimum. I can add this to the beer 3 or 4 days prior to clearing with gelatin.

Has anyone tried doing something like this?

 

[JoMarky]

I did that with a red ale that I must have mis-measured hops with. Bitterness was almost non-existent. I did a 45 minute boil of plain water (.25 gallon or so) adding hops at the beginning, mid-way, and flame out, chilled it and added it to the keg. It completely balanced the beer about, adding bitterness and flavor.

 

[BrewSpook]

I did that with a red ale that I must have mis-measured hops with. Bitterness was almost non-existent. I did a 45 minute boil of plain water (.25 gallon or so) adding hops at the beginning, mid-way, and flame out, chilled it and added it to the keg. It completely balanced the beer about, adding bitterness and flavor.

Awesome... That was exactly what I was hoping for. I think the flavor and aroma will be there, but the bitterness is what I am afraid might be missing post fermentation.

Thanks JoMarky!

 

[mclaughlintk]

It sucks being THAT guy... a 30yo vet in a class of 20 year old punks. I kinda want to punch them all in the junk.

hey! i'm one of those punks! mostly we mean well....

can't wait to hear about the final results!

 

[BrewSpook]

hey! i'm one of those punks! mostly we mean well....

can't wait to hear about the final results!

Where are you in VA?

 

[IamNash]

I have seen some recipes in NB extract kits call for hop teas as well. I think these are mainly to improve hop utilization when you are doing a partial boil with a big beer, since the gravity of the wort is double your target... So if you are brewing a 1.070 beer, you need a 1.14 wort and that is terrible for hop utilization. Let me give you an example:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/DIPA.pdf

 

[BrewSpook]

I have seen some recipes in NB extract kits call for hop teas as well. I think these are mainly to improve hop utilization when you are doing a partial boil with a big beer, since the gravity of the wort is double your target... So if you are brewing a 1.070 beer, you need a 1.14 wort and that is terrible for hop utilization. Let me give you an example:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/DIPA.pdf

Interesting. I took another sample yesterday and I think I am definitely going to have to do this for the bitterness, it just isn't coming through at all. Need to see if I've got an oz of EKG and maybe I will do it tomorrow so it will sit with the wort for a few days before I clear it and keg it.

Still a small boil compared to a large boil will still be faster and use WAY less energy. Barring any major complications in the next week I think we have a winner.

 

[brettwasbtd]

How's this looking? about ready to go to secondary, right?

 

[BuzzCraft]

Brewspook, if you're still working on this and are going to boil more hops to increase the bitterness, consider pulling some of the beer itself and boiling hops in it for 15 min or so and then add it back to the batch. This will provide some acidity to minimize the chances of introducing astringency that you might get from using water alone; plus you won't be watering down your beer.
I had good success with this, but only applied it to a 1/2 batch of beer (i.e. the keg was half done and I was tired of underbittered beer). You're limited to how many IBUs you can get in there by the small volume of beer you boil, but it will work.

 

[BrewSpook]

Brewspook, if you're still working on this and are going to boil more hops to increase the bitterness, consider pulling some of the beer itself and boiling hops in it for 15 min or so and then add it back to the batch. This will provide some acidity to minimize the chances of introducing astringency that you might get from using water alone; plus you won't be watering down your beer.
I had good success with this, but only applied it to a 1/2 batch of beer (i.e. the keg was half done and I was tired of underbittered beer). You're limited to how many IBUs you can get in there by the small volume of beer you boil, but it will work.

Thanks Buzz, thats a really good idea. I wonder if I pull a qt or 2 out and boiled with .5oz of magnum for 60 min, since its a high AA clean bittering hop, if that would give me the bite I am looking or. The hop flavor and aroma are definitely there, its just not very bitter.

When you did that, did you just pull it and then add it right back to the keg? I would imagine it would need a shake or two to get it all mixed back in.

Finals next week, plan on kegging this bad boy up mid week after my hardest finals are over. Force carb and ready to drink by the weekend.

P.S. I need more kegs

 

[BuzzCraft]

Exactly, pulled a quart out boiled and poured it back in. You could shake, but it will diffuse out fairly quickly, so I think it would be unnecessary. As far as the hops to use, you will saturate the IBUs you can get in that small volume pretty quickly with a small amount of hops. If you have Beersmith or something similar, you can get the theoretic IBUs for the volume you are boiling for a given duration with a given amount of hops/AAs.

If you accept the conventional wisdom that IBUs saturate at 100, I think the following will be true. With a 1 quart boil, you get 25 IBUs/gallon, so will bump up a 5 gallon batch by 5 IBUs. Double to a 2 quart boil and you bump up the batch by 10, which is probably more desirable in your situation.

The only downside I can think of is that you are going to be dropping your alcohol content of your batch, because it will be boiling alcohol out of the beer. I personally wouldn't worry about this, cause you're looking to make it more palatable.

Oh, and don't forget to minimize aeration of your boiled beer when you're straining the hops out. a hop bag would be a good idea.

Good luck with it and if you do this, please report how it changes the character of your beer.

 

[BrewSpook]

Alright Buzz,

since you have already distracted me from studying for finals with this

Here is what I came up with in beersmith. let me know if you think I am doing this right.

If I set batch size to 5 gallons, boil size to .5 gallons (w/gravity @ 1.014) after 60 minutes. 1 oz of Magnum will merit me an addition of 23.6 IBUs to the batch. Which will be good, because there is some there, and I was shooting for right around 35-40IBUs originally.

Thoughts?

 

[BuzzCraft]

You approach makes sense on the surface and would seem to be correct except for the fact that there is supposed to be a saturation limit of around 100 IBUs in beer. I've heard others say that it's really just that your palate can't discriminate more than that, but I think the former is held to be more accurate.

So, assuming a 100 IBU saturation limit, you can't get more than 100 IBUs in 0.5 gallons of wort. You then distribute this amount over your 5 gallon batch and end up with an extra 10 IBUs for the entire batch. I think this is closer to the truth.

The good news is that you don't have to boil for 60 minutes. If you plug into Beersmith a 0.5 gallon batch and 0.5 gallon boil volume, you'll see that you will get to way over 100 IBUs within 15 minutes. So, I'd go with 0.5 Magnum for 15 minutes in 0.5 gallons and expect a 10 IBU bump in your batch. Should be a perceptible improvement, but perhaps not as high as you would like.

Hope that makes sense. And hopefully someone else will chime in if my facts/assumptions are wrong, but I believe they are correct.

 

[DKershner]

Following you guys and interested in the results.

Some thoughts...

Couldn't you boil the beer covered or in a pressure cooker and not lose near as much alcohol? The pressure cooker could also allow for quicker isomerization with the higher temps. You could also make the boil the least vigorous as possible to minimize boil off.

Also, I believe BuzzCraft's calculations are correct on the IBU of the hop concentrate, but a thought I had was, how do they get the "Hop Shot" or concentrated bitterness to hold more IBUs than that? It seems we should be able to replicate that technique.

 

[BrewSpook]

Couldn't you boil the beer covered or in a pressure cooker and not lose near as much alcohol? The pressure cooker could also allow for quicker isomerization with the higher temps. You could also make the boil the least vigorous as possible to minimize boil off.

Also, I believe BuzzCraft's calculations are correct on the IBU of the hop concentrate, but a thought I had was, how do they get the "Hop Shot" or concentrated bitterness to hold more IBUs than that? It seems we should be able to replicate that technique.

Yeah I think what I will end up doing is putting it on the stovetop and bring it to a boil, then reduce to a slow boil covered for 15-30 minutes to conserve energy (which was the point of this experiment anyway)

Yeah I have heard that about the maximum IBUs... being a math guy, I tend to lean more towards the perception is the limiting factor. I figure at this point the beer is good from the samples I have tasted, extra bitterness will only make it better, so whatever happens happens. I wish there was a way at home to test IBUs.... hmmm
I will have to take this into account before I try experiment #2.

 

[McCuckerson]

Due to a very poor hop storage technique, my house pale came out like a blonde ale I used BS to calculate the aa lost and what I would need to correct the IBU of the brew. Turns out 1/2oz cascade and 1/2oz williamette were the required amount. I boiled them for 60min in about a quart of water, chilled and separated the hop material as best I could. I tasted the hop tea and it make my teeth tingle. I poured the tea into the corney and wammo the pale ale was back.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Based on the experiment I'm doing with the short boil vs. long boil, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/short-vs-long-boil-experiment-206981/
I would boil the hops longer and uncovered to drive off the flavor and aroma compounds.
At bottling in this experiment, I'm getting more of the hop flavor from the bittering hop that was only boiled for 15 min. I almost want to say grassy but that's not it.
So, I would boil for longer or in water like McCuckerson stated above.
Bull

 

[BrewSpook]

Ok so here is what I did this morning. 1.5 qt of beer boiled for 60 minutes with 15g of magnum hops. Man did it smell nasty I have to air out the house before SWMBO gets home. after the boil I let it cool and added some gelatin to clear it out. One more week and I will keg this bad boy up. Keep your fingers crossed

 

[jjones17]

Subscribed. This thread strikes me as someone saying:

"Experiment: Driving with my eyes closed, because the only bad thing that can happen is I could crash and kill myself or someone else or just damage my car. So, I am going to prove this wrong by only driving 15 meters straight with my eyes closed so I can say I proved everyone wrong that you really can drive with your eyes closed."

Not trying to be negative, just wanted to express that I am entertained and want to see your results - good on ya for doing something new, honestly.

 

[Moneyjacket]

so what happened?

 

[BrewSpook]

Sorry for the delay guys, spent the last 2 months dealing with a dying dog.

This beer turned out great! A buddy that just came back from London not too long ago almost drained half the keg himself.

Its a little heavy, not sure if its from mash temps, or maybe proteins left in the beer... but the last is great. I will post pics as soon as I can. I will call this a success. I mean, hell its been a couple of months and it there is no sign of contamination. Plus a right tasty beer.

 

[greggor]

Last weekend I did something similar though not entirely on purpose. I had planned to make a Berliner Weise but didn't entirely understand the reason for no boil (now I understand it is to preserve the lacto that naturally exists on the grain and keeping the lautered mash below 170F is an important part of the process). So I made a 10 gallon batch of wheat I sparged normally and collected 11.5 gallons added 1 oz of first wort hops (Cascade). I then brought the wort to 195F and held for 15 minutes. Then ran 4.5 gallons through my counterflow and boiled the rest with regular hop additions for a traditional American wheat. So now I have 2 brews 1 is pasteurized at 195 but not boiled and the other is a full hour boil. I added Whirlflock to the 1 hour boil brew. The biggest difference in the two worts is the boiled is considerably clearer and a bit darker. It will be interesting to note the other differences of the finished products. I will add a post in a few weeks. Final note I planned to use a WL630 Berliner Weise yeast in the no boil but my starter never took off so I substituted with a WL510 Bastogne yeast the other boiled version was pitched with a WL029 Kolsch. I'm going to split the no boil and pitch lacto in half to go with the original Berliner Weise theme and leave the other half with no bugs just to complete the no boil experiment. I may need to add some additional hop bitterness to this one per the above suggestions depending on the taste.

 

[mi5]

Having read this whole thread (google directed me here) I am curious as to whether the OP or anyone else made further ground on no boil techniques and what their results were?

 

[nacho2100]

Having read this whole thread (google directed me here) I am curious as to whether the OP or anyone else made further ground on no boil techniques and what their results were?

I am in the same boat. This is a mad breakthrough thread. After thinking about how the picobrew doesn't boil the wort, I was considering creating a RIMS setup that didn't boil but only brought the temp high enough to isomerize the hop oils.
This however is making me wonder if I even have to do that. Now I am thinking there may be many ways to skin the cat with the hop problem:
1. Add hop extract for bitterness.
2. Do a no chill, and let the residual heat slowly isomerize the hops.
3. Make a super concentrated hop tea and add that.

In fact I am even wondering if I would have to add any hops at all until after fermentation is complete. This thread is inspiring complete heresy.

The co2 DMS scrubbing is brilliant if it works. DMS is pretty volatile even at temperatures lower than boiling, so this may not even be necessary.

 

[Kristaps]

So I read all the posts and threads here on no boil beer and decided to do an experiment on my own.
I created a simple 4 liter pale ale recipe.
500g munich malt
500g Vienna malt
7g magnum first wort hop
10g mosaic at flameout
100g us 05 slurry from a previous batch

At 70% efficiency the predicted OG was 1.053
So my process was like this. I mashed in at 65C and after 30min pulled off half of thick mash decoction style, and boiled it for 30min adding hops. When the boil was complete it was added back to the mash, strained, chilled to 19C and yeast was pitched.
I was done in a little more than 1.5 hours including clean-up.
Now the interesting part. I let it ferment in two jars for 7 days and then bottled it (yesterday). I was a bit worried about the attenuation considering that I boiled half of the mash grains for 30min, but at bottling I checked FG and it was 0.998 instead of the predicted 1.012!!
I tasted a sample and it was ok as far as I could tell from a green, flat beer. At least there were no major off flavours. But I have never seen a beer attenuate that much. Can anybody enlighten me what's going on here?
P.S. I didn't check for original gravity, but assumed it being the usual as my setup didn't change...

 

[Ninoid]

I mash at around 66'C (60min), squezzing the bag, ramp up temperature to 77'C, no chill overnight and pitch yeast. I use BrewMate software with Boil=0min and always hit the OG and FG (two week fermentation) with +/-0.002 tolerance. My mash efficiency is around 75%.

Maybe your yeast have high authentication?