Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[Aristotelian]

couldnt find the Blaugies strain from Wyeast cause its seasonal. Does White Labs have one? Heard HF uses it as a primary strain for their saisons

I believe I read that Apex Predator is made with this yeast, and I have successfully cultured dregs from it.

 

[popsicleian]

I haven't read through the whole thread, but have you had any experience using 2nd (or later) generation 3724/3711 slurry? I harvested slurry from my last batch, for which I originally pitched 3724, then 3711 once it stalled. This weekend I brewed an all-pilsner malt saison with styrian goldings and hallertau hops. I'm wondering what I should expect in terms of yeast character from the 2nd gen harvested stuff. I did a vitality starter with a pretty generous amount of slurry.

Also, is it safe to assume that if I keep harvesting and repitching slurry it will trend towards a 3711 flavor over time, given its attenuative properties?

Just got back from vacation and took a sample from the fermenter--this is a seriously good beer! Definitely more of a 3724 fruity flavor, but with some of the lemony, peppery notes I'd associate with the 3711. I'm glad I kept the malt bill simple and let the yeast do the talking.

I'm going to bottle this week, but I'll siphon off a gallon or so to a smaller fermenter and pitch some brett dregs (I have bottles of Seizoen Bretta and/or Prairie Ale I could crack open and use) or fruit, just for fun. Any suggestions?

 

[Braufessor]

Just got back from vacation and took a sample from the fermenter--this is a seriously good beer! Definitely more of a 3724 fruity flavor, but with some of the lemony, peppery notes I'd associate with the 3711. I'm glad I kept the malt bill simple and let the yeast do the talking.

I'm going to bottle this week, but I'll siphon off a gallon or so to a smaller fermenter and pitch some brett dregs (I have bottles of Seizoen Bretta and/or Prairie Ale I could crack open and use) or fruit, just for fun. Any suggestions?

Wanted to report back on mine too - I am putting my saison into a keg right now - 3724/3711 Blend. Just a nice 1.045 session beer. Mine is very similar to your description as well. Slight spice/pepper, slight lemon/tart. I think once it drops totally clear of yeast it is going to be a super clean, crisp beer with the pepper/tart accents. Exactly what I was hoping for.

I did nothing fancy with fermentation. Pitched 50/50 at same time. Pitched at 66-68 degrees. left it there for about 24 hours. Moved up stairs where it is warmer and it probably free rose to mid 70's. Wrapped it in blankets in a south facing window after 3-4 days and that probably kept it in the mid to upper 70's. Fermented for 14 days. 1.005 gravity.

Very pleased with the combo as well and glad I saved some yeast back to make another one in the next couple weeks.

 

[puyallupbrewing]

Good question, I just found a few mentions of it online and thought that it had been determined. Could be Allagash though. Guess I'm going to have to buy some beers from Allagash and Ommegang and compare

What I wouldn't give for a clean pitch of Allagash yeast if anyone knows please share

 

[bolus14]

I agree, ommegang got me into belgian beers and allagash is good stuff too. I've tried stepping up dregs of ommegang and have gotten bad off flavors, ham/bologna, like.

 

[newkirk]

Glad the thread was able to help you out man

If you are wanting to make a fruity dark saison, I'd try a combo of WLP500 and WY3711. WLP500 has always given my great dark fruit, plum, raisin flavors. My only issue with it was that its attenuation wasnt quite high enough. I had a couple dubbels in BSDAs come out too sweet in the finish for me so I found myself design super dry grain bills for those types of beers. WY3711 will definitely solve that issue and, IME, works great in darker variations of saisons to make it distinctly saison. You may want to skip the spices though to prevent too much going on, but thats just me

Thanks, sounds like a plan. And agreed on the spices, the more I've thought about it the less I wanted to keep them, given the dark fruity target. The rye will be added to my next batch of 'normal' saison, and/or Hothead.

j

 

[m00ps]

updates:

WLP585 / INISBC-291
Redid this with the same grain bill as the one below. The grain bill was kind of a combination on the previous version of this mixed with the original one I did for the combo below. I wanted to try each yeast combo out with the same grain bill to be able to compare better. Still a bit young to tell, but I think I've finally reached my favorite combo. Well, at least for now. Super fruity berry flavors in the nose and middle taste, bit of funky hay and malts as soon as you sip, and dry tartness in the end

WLP585 / Hothead
This was my other previously possible favorite combo. It is 1 wk younger than the one above so I dont feel like I can totally make conclusions yet but I think I like the first one better. This just doesnt have as much "rustic" flavors which, in my head, has to be from the 291 yeast. Its super fruity though. I do like it a lot. I need to check my notes if I ever tried hothead and 291...

WLP585 & Acid Malt / Lactic Acid - gose-ish
Redid this since a lot of people liked it and it definitely works to make a nice gose if you dont want to mess with kettle/sour mashing. Im sure you could use other yeasts, but this one in particular works very well with the additions of acid malt and lactic acid to taste authentic. The nice part is you can dial in the lactic acid once its in the fermentor. I used 2.5oz 88% lactic acid, .75oz salt, 1.5oz coriander

WLP565 / WLP585
I wanted to try out this combo after trying a few bottles I had stashed away from a while ago where I used White Labs Belgian Saison I, II, & III. The old bottles were great, much better than I remembered. Also, I think this stands to date as the only saison @iijakii (notorious hater of all things saison) has ever enjoyed. So I wanted ot try this out again, but without the WLP566(Belgian Saison II). While this is a great yeast, I dont find it aligning as much with my tastes for what I personally search out in farmhouse ales. With the bit of bubblegum/clove/banana/pear i always get from it, I feel like its almost a middle ground between belgian saison yeasts and "normal" belgian yeasts. I used it for a big belgian golden ale for its high attenuation, and you couldnt really tell it was fermented with a saison yeast

@beergolf 's rosemary yeast & WLP585 - table saison
I've never tried a "table" strength saison. Most of mine end up between 6-8%. So I liked the idea of a challenge to try and get those flavors I enjoy at half the strength without being too watery. Used a lot of flaked wheat in this one. Its still in the fermentor so I cant comment on the final product, but the sample was really nicely balanced and didnt feel watery or thin at all. Also, I just wanted to let him know I hadnt forgotten the special yeast he gave me

 

[stickyfinger]

I have a good beer store near me. Do you recommend any commercial saisons as a way to educate myself on what a Saison "should" taste like. I realize that is a silly way to phrase it. I just want to have an idea of kind of what it generally will taste like. I haven't had many Saisons in my life, maybe just Dupont I think and the handful that I have tried to brew.

 

[TravelingLight]

Just got back from vacation and took a sample from the fermenter--this is a seriously good beer! Definitely more of a 3724 fruity flavor, but with some of the lemony, peppery notes I'd associate with the 3711. I'm glad I kept the malt bill simple and let the yeast do the talking.

I'm going to bottle this week, but I'll siphon off a gallon or so to a smaller fermenter and pitch some brett dregs (I have bottles of Seizoen Bretta and/or Prairie Ale I could crack open and use) or fruit, just for fun. Any suggestions?

What's the IBU on your beer? I ask because I'm about to do a saison and wanted to pull a gallon off to pitch dregs into but I'm concerned about IBUs. My recipe as of right now has about 13-15 IBUs. Any problem with the lacto in the dregs?

Granted, I could pull a gallon straight from the boil before adding any hops. But I wanted to let it ferment out with sacc some before I pull off and pitch dregs. Thoughts?

 

[m00ps]

I have a good beer store near me. Do you recommend any commercial saisons as a way to educate myself on what a Saison "should" taste like. I realize that is a silly way to phrase it. I just want to have an idea of kind of what it generally will taste like. I haven't had many Saisons in my life, maybe just Dupont I think and the handful that I have tried to brew.

I've got another thread that may help you if you are looking into the style
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7581608#post7581608

 

[m00ps]

What's the IBU on your beer? I ask because I'm about to do a saison and wanted to pull a gallon off to pitch dregs into but I'm concerned about IBUs. My recipe as of right now has about 13-15 IBUs. Any problem with the lacto in the dregs?

Granted, I could pull a gallon straight from the boil before adding any hops. But I wanted to let it ferment out with sacc some before I pull off and pitch dregs. Thoughts?

Lacto might be a bit inhibited by 15ibus, but brett is perfectly fine at any level. Commercial dregs are generally much more aggressive and hardy than a pure commercial bacteria strain though. I wold go for it. I gave zero thought to the ibu levels for the first couple sours I did, but I used all stepped-up dregs

 

[popsicleian]

What's the IBU on your beer? I ask because I'm about to do a saison and wanted to pull a gallon off to pitch dregs into but I'm concerned about IBUs. My recipe as of right now has about 13-15 IBUs. Any problem with the lacto in the dregs?

Granted, I could pull a gallon straight from the boil before adding any hops. But I wanted to let it ferment out with sacc some before I pull off and pitch dregs. Thoughts?

It's about 23 IBUs--I was planning on Brett only, so I hadn't really given the IBUs much consideration. I ended up putting a gallon on raspberries from my backyard instead, anyway.

 

[brewski09]

What's the IBU on your beer? I ask because I'm about to do a saison and wanted to pull a gallon off to pitch dregs into but I'm concerned about IBUs. My recipe as of right now has about 13-15 IBUs. Any problem with the lacto in the dregs?



Granted, I could pull a gallon straight from the boil before adding any hops. But I wanted to let it ferment out with sacc some before I pull off and pitch dregs. Thoughts?

Some lacto is sensitive even at 2-3 IBU and most are sensitive around 7 IBU from the research I've done (and the trials I've run). Check out milk the funk (wiki and Facebook) as well as the sour hour podcast for great sour info.

 

[TravelingLight]

Lacto might be a bit inhibited by 15ibus, but brett is perfectly fine at any level. Commercial dregs are generally much more aggressive and hardy than a pure commercial bacteria strain though. I wold go for it. I gave zero thought to the ibu levels for the first couple sours I did, but I used all stepped-up dregs

Thanks m00ps. Speaking of stepping up...I've read about people stepping up dregs. Am I correct in thinking of it as simply continuing to grow starters and add them to more wort until you have a big enough starter built up? Logistically speaking, does this simply mean, pitch dregs to wort, let it ferment out some, then dump that concoction into more fresh wort to double/triple/whatever the amount, and continuing this process until you have the amount you want?

 

[m00ps]

Thanks m00ps. Speaking of stepping up...I've read about people stepping up dregs. Am I correct in thinking of it as simply continuing to grow starters and add them to more wort until you have a big enough starter built up? Logistically speaking, does this simply mean, pitch dregs to wort, let it ferment out some, then dump that concoction into more fresh wort to double/triple/whatever the amount, and continuing this process until you have the amount you want?

Usually, you want a pretty low gravity wort to help the yeast get started. I will cut my usual rule of 1g/ml down in half.

If I doing an individual bottle, and not combining several different beers at once, I like to do the first step in the bottle itself. I'll sanitize the lip inside and out, carefully pour out the beer, and add 100-200ml and cover it with foil. Shake it periodically and you should see some signs of foaming from fermentation within a few days.

Its best if the bottle sat overnight in the fridge to get the most compact yeast cake as you can

 

[TravelingLight]

Usually, you want a pretty low gravity wort to help the yeast get started. I will cut my usual rule of 1g/ml down in half.

If I doing an individual bottle, and not combining several different beers at once, I like to do the first step in the bottle itself. I'll sanitize the lip inside and out, carefully pour out the beer, and add 100-200ml and cover it with foil. Shake it periodically and you should see some signs of foaming from fermentation within a few days.

Its best if the bottle sat overnight in the fridge to get the most compact yeast cake as you can

Thanks again. Your "usual rule of 1g/ml" does that mean for normal starters you use 1 gram DME per 1 ml of water?? I just looked back at my notes from the last time I did a starter for a clean yeast and I used 1 cup DME and 4 cups water (gave me gravity of about 1.020 - 1.025...too high for dregs?). Then I looked at notes I made a while back for making a starter with dregs and those notes say 12g DME and 200ml water. You know your stuff backwards and forwards and have helped out more of my beers than you probably even realize so I'd like to mirror your process as best as possible.

 

[newkirk]

I think it's 0.1g/ml, that would be about 1.035-1.040, with 20g DME in 200ml, so 12g in 200ml is a bit over half. (1g/ml would be over 1.350 OG! pretty viscous...)

j

 

[TravelingLight]

I think it's 0.1g/ml, that would be about 1.035-1.040, with 20g DME in 200ml, so 12g in 200ml is a bit over half. (1g/ml would be over 1.350 OG! pretty viscous...)

j

Ok that's what I was thinking! Just making sure I hadn't read that wrong. Thanks.

So, to m00ps's point, is 1.020 low enough for dregs culturing or do I need to go lower??

 

[m00ps]

Thanks again. Your "usual rule of 1g/ml" does that mean for normal starters you use 1 gram DME per 1 ml of water?? I just looked back at my notes from the last time I did a starter for a clean yeast and I used 1 cup DME and 4 cups water (gave me gravity of about 1.020 - 1.025...too high for dregs?). Then I looked at notes I made a while back for making a starter with dregs and those notes say 12g DME and 200ml water. You know your stuff backwards and forwards and have helped out more of my beers than you probably even realize so I'd like to mirror your process as best as possible.

around 1.020 is definitely the range id go for culturing dregs. I think 1g/ml gives you around 1.035 gravity, but I'm not sure since I read it a while ago and just started doing this since its so easy to remember. Even if the gravity is a bit too high, the dregs should get going eventually if given enough time

 

[m00ps]

Not an update on my blending experiments, but an interesting thing I noticed on these "young" saison yeast flavors.

A KY brewery released a canned saison a few months back. Naturally, I jumped on it as soon as I saw it at the store. They don't print their canning dates, but Im sure it was pretty fresh since the owner of the store is very on point about stuff like that and constantly gets new stuff from them before I even hear about it.

Anyway, I didn't really like it. It had way too much bubblegum/clove/banana for a saison. Same tastes I get sometimes when I try mine too early. So, a few months go by and I saw it on the shelves and decided to try it again. All of those flavors were gone and it tasted much better to me. Just to be sure, I asked the owner if he'd ordered any more and it was a new batch, but that wasnt the case.

So my takeaway was that these "young/green" saison flavors are very normal. Give it time fi you are worried

 

[tgmartin000]

Not an update on my blending experiments, but an interesting thing I noticed on these "young" saison yeast flavors.

A KY brewery released a canned saison a few months back. Naturally, I jumped on it as soon as I saw it at the store. They don't print their canning dates, but Im sure it was pretty fresh since the owner of the store is very on point about stuff like that and constantly gets new stuff from them before I even hear about it.

Anyway, I didn't really like it. It had way too much bubblegum/clove/banana for a saison. Same tastes I get sometimes when I try mine too early. So, a few months go by and I saw it on the shelves and decided to try it again. All of those flavors were gone and it tasted much better to me. Just to be sure, I asked the owner if he'd ordered any more and it was a new batch, but that wasnt the case.

So my takeaway was that these "young/green" saison flavors are very normal. Give it time fi you are worried

I've really been noticing that a lot as well. Seems like my saisons improve after a few months of cold aging.

 

[brewski09]

I agree that my Saisons taste better a couple months out like the flavors all need to meld together. I tend to brew it when I have time in the schedule to make sure I have low ABV beer on hand (this is my 3% table beer) so I'm not rushing too much to drink it.

 

[TravelingLight]

Y'all are making me want to bottle my first saison instead of keg it. I've never bottled an entire batch, only individual bottles with the Blichmann from the keg when I want some bottles. I was planning on kegging this saison and bottling roughly the whole thing. But now I'm considering bottling. If for no other reason than to say I've done it and know how to.

The priming sugar calcs are pretty spot on? I worry about bottle bombs. But I swear I'm convinced that 99% of bottles that others gave me that were bombs were a direct result of not fermenting long enough as opposed to incorrect priming sugar calcs. Agree? Disagree?

 

[Brewmasher]

I just bottled my first saison using WY3711 Sunday. I only got down to 1.006 using only pale 2 row, mashing at 149F and letting slowly rise to 158 over 90 min. It sat for over a week with no change, so I assumed it was done. I still primed on the low side, just in case.

I force carbed a PET bottle and drank it yesterday. A lot of bubblegum, but I like bubblegum and that is what I was after. I thought it was awesome just 3 weeks straight out the fermenter. It will be interesting to see how it ages out, but I don't think its going to last that long!

Started a rye saison with 15% malted rye and 10% flaked rye. This time I added 2# turbinado sugar. We'll see if this will dry it out some more.

 

[m00ps]

Y'all are making me want to bottle my first saison instead of keg it. I've never bottled an entire batch, only individual bottles with the Blichmann from the keg when I want some bottles. I was planning on kegging this saison and bottling roughly the whole thing. But now I'm considering bottling. If for no other reason than to say I've done it and know how to.

The priming sugar calcs are pretty spot on? I worry about bottle bombs. But I swear I'm convinced that 99% of bottles that others gave me that were bombs were a direct result of not fermenting long enough as opposed to incorrect priming sugar calcs. Agree? Disagree?

FWIW, I stopped kegging my saisons and other belgians entirely. I've tried +6mo ones old bottled naturally and bottled from keg (CO2 purged w/ beer gun) and the naturally carbed ones hold up much longer IME. Hell, I have a few that are 18 months old and still held up better than the ones I bottled from the keg. That being said, if you just want to drink it all on tap, go for it. I bottle them because I like to give stuff out and be able to transport easily

I haven't had issue with priming calcs. I had some batches overcarbed early on, but I attribute that to not dialing in my volume being bottled. The rule of thumb I use now is the wort level minus 0.5gal due to trub loss. But I always take a look at how much trub there is and try to guess from there at the final amount that makes it into my bottling bucket.

For saisons, I usually aim for 2.8 vol co2. You can go higher, but I've read rules of thumb that you dont want to exceed 3.0 in most 12oz longnecks/shortnecks. I figure at +3.0, any small defect in the bottle may cause issues

The one thing I dont entirely understand is the temperature calculation you input. I always just use 68-70F, as that is the room temp its sitting at when I bottle. But I read everywhere that you are supposed to use the HIGHEST temp it ever achieved during fermentation. For me, thats about 92F. But when I tried this, I got very overcarbed bottles. Plus, the other stuff i've fermented at room temps and primed to the same 2.8 turn out very similar to the 92F saisons. I dunno, maybe it has something to do with the 3-4 days they sit at room temp before bottling. Maybe this equalizes the already dissolved CO2 levels.

 

[TravelingLight]

FWIW, I stopped kegging my saisons and other belgians entirely. I've tried +6mo ones old bottled naturally and bottled from keg (CO2 purged w/ beer gun) and the naturally carbed ones hold up much longer IME. Hell, I have a few that are 18 months old and still held up better than the ones I bottled from the keg. That being said, if you just want to drink it all on tap, go for it. I bottle them because I like to give stuff out and be able to transport easily

I haven't had issue with priming calcs. I had some batches overcarbed early on, but I attribute that to not dialing in my volume being bottled. The rule of thumb I use now is the wort level minus 0.5gal due to trub loss. But I always take a look at how much trub there is and try to guess from there at the final amount that makes it into my bottling bucket.

For saisons, I usually aim for 2.8 vol co2. You can go higher, but I've read rules of thumb that you dont want to exceed 3.0 in most 12oz longnecks/shortnecks. I figure at +3.0, any small defect in the bottle may cause issues

The one thing I dont entirely understand is the temperature calculation you input. I always just use 68-70F, as that is the room temp its sitting at when I bottle. But I read everywhere that you are supposed to use the HIGHEST temp it ever achieved during fermentation. For me, thats about 92F. But when I tried this, I got very overcarbed bottles. Plus, the other stuff i've fermented at room temps and primed to the same 2.8 turn out very similar to the 92F saisons. I dunno, maybe it has something to do with the 3-4 days they sit at room temp before bottling. Maybe this equalizes the already dissolved CO2 levels.

Excellent advice as always, m00ps. I wish we were neighbors.

Point of note here: after primary, I plan on racking on top of raspberries for a bit before bottling/kegging. My questions:
1) Will fruiting this beer have any effect on bottling or do I need to take that into account when calculating my priming sugar?
2) How long should I leave it on fruit? I assume the addition of fruit may kick up some more fermentation (I'm using 3711). Just not sure how long I should leave it on fruit.

 

[bucketnative]

FWIW, I stopped kegging my saisons and other belgians entirely. I've tried +6mo ones old bottled naturally and bottled from keg (CO2 purged w/ beer gun) and the naturally carbed ones hold up much longer IME. Hell, I have a few that are 18 months old and still held up better than the ones I bottled from the keg. That being said, if you just want to drink it all on tap, go for it. I bottle them because I like to give stuff out and be able to transport easily.

https://beerandbrewing.com/VMvilisAAKGj51nr/article/belgian-beer-youre-probably-doing-it-wrong

Joe Stange would probably agree with you.

 

[m00ps]

Excellent advice as always, m00ps. I wish we were neighbors.

Point of note here: after primary, I plan on racking on top of raspberries for a bit before bottling/kegging. My questions:
1) Will fruiting this beer have any effect on bottling or do I need to take that into account when calculating my priming sugar?
2) How long should I leave it on fruit? I assume the addition of fruit may kick up some more fermentation (I'm using 3711). Just not sure how long I should leave it on fruit.

Except for the fruited sours, every fruit beer I've done I have racked onto the fruit and left it for 7-10 days before bottling. As long as you let the eyast ferment any fermentable sugars in the fruit, it wont affect priming

Word of caution though - Usually you want as little headspace as possible for a secondary. For adding fruit (depending on the sugar content of the fruit I guess), you want some decent headspace to account for the fruit itself and the additional fermentation. I had 1gal of headspace in my last blackberry sour and the blackberries foamed up and clogged the blowoff. Just keep an eye on it is what im mainly saying

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I have a good beer store near me. Do you recommend any commercial saisons as a way to educate myself on what a Saison "should" taste like. I realize that is a silly way to phrase it. I just want to have an idea of kind of what it generally will taste like. I haven't had many Saisons in my life, maybe just Dupont I think and the handful that I have tried to brew.

Allagash from Maine is good and it is a tad less expensive than Sofie.

 

[TravelingLight]

Except for the fruited sours, every fruit beer I've done I have racked onto the fruit and left it for 7-10 days before bottling. As long as you let the eyast ferment any fermentable sugars in the fruit, it wont affect priming

Word of caution though - Usually you want as little headspace as possible for a secondary. For adding fruit (depending on the sugar content of the fruit I guess), you want some decent headspace to account for the fruit itself and the additional fermentation. I had 1gal of headspace in my last blackberry sour and the blackberries foamed up and clogged the blowoff. Just keep an eye on it is what im mainly saying

Good call. I'll have to think about it. I need to get a 6.5 gallon carboy anyway so maybe this will be the kick in the pants I need to go ahead and snag one.