Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[jinjorge]

Curious if anyone here has used WLP568 for their saison? I picked up a vial of it to do a saison this weekend so I can take advantage of the TX heat before it gets in triple digits.

White Labs advertises it as a Belgian Ale and Saison blend that balances out some of their other fruit-heavy offerings and also is a quicker to complete fermentation than some of the others.

@jmill Curious to hear how your brew turned out. I just picked up the same yeast WLP568 as well as WLP565.

I would appreciate any feedback on how the fermentation is going.

Thanks!

 

[jmill]

Curious to hear how your brew turned out.

It turned out really well. I started it down at 67F, let it sit out at room temp (73F) for a day, then in the garage where ambient temps hit 78-90. Stayed in garage for three weeks before bringing back inside to slowly cool back down. Racked to secondary yesterday. Managed a final reading of 1.006. The smell was absolutely amazing. Tasted like a good, but flat saison....nice combo of fruit and spice and not too heavy. I was worried the garage temps would be too high given that it is a blend, but it turned out fine. Bottling this one to share with friends.

 

[jinjorge]

It turned out really well. I started it down at 67F, let it sit out at room temp (73F) for a day, then in the garage where ambient temps hit 78-90. Stayed in garage for three weeks before bringing back inside to slowly cool back down. Racked to secondary yesterday. Managed a final reading of 1.006. The smell was absolutely amazing. Tasted like a good, but flat saison....nice combo of fruit and spice and not too heavy. I was worried the garage temps would be too high given that it is a blend, but it turned out fine. Bottling this one to share with friends.

Awesome!!

 

[m00ps]

I haven't read through the whole thread, but have you had any experience using 2nd (or later) generation 3724/3711 slurry? I harvested slurry from my last batch, for which I originally pitched 3724, then 3711 once it stalled. This weekend I brewed an all-pilsner malt saison with styrian goldings and hallertau hops. I'm wondering what I should expect in terms of yeast character from the 2nd gen harvested stuff. I did a vitality starter with a pretty generous amount of slurry.

Also, is it safe to assume that if I keep harvesting and repitching slurry it will trend towards a 3711 flavor over time, given its attenuative properties?

Most of my saison strains are easily +10generations, but I always harvest yeast from ym starters so im not sure whether i'd call each one a "generation" in the sense of doing a whole fermentation with hops and everything.

If you are harvesting the blended yeast cake, im guessing it definitely will trend mroe towards 3711 over time. Making a starter and tasting the wort should give you a good idea of how much 3711-forward it is. If its almost lemony sour, that what id look for.

Either way, itll still be mroe complex than either strain alone. If you keep using the blend, thats basically the whole farmhouse tradition id say


edit: I just realized you let 3724 work before pitchign 3711. Depending on where and when it stalled, you could very likely have a cake that is at least 75% 3724 or so. Basing this figure on absoutely nothing

 

[hopsandhops]

Does anyone have any experience with 3711 vs Belle Saison? I know they're both pretty mildly flavored yeasts with massive attenuation. I've used Belle Saison and I'm wondering specifically how much clove and lemon flavors they produce vs each other?

 

[m00ps]

Does anyone have any experience with 3711 vs Belle Saison? I know they're both pretty mildly flavored yeasts with massive attenuation. I've used Belle Saison and I'm wondering specifically how much clove and lemon flavors they produce vs each other?

I haven't used belle saison in a while, but they are notable similar but also notably different.

3711 has an overall "brighter" yeast character to me. Its more lemony and tart, and it seems to contribute to the beers body despite the high attenuation

Belle Saison has more spice to it, but has a similar citrus flavor. I dont think it has quite the body contribution as 3711. The spice is more peppery to em than clove, but it may produce these flavors when the beer is younger. I've never gotten any clove from 3711 at any stage in the conditioning process

 

[hopsandhops]

I haven't used belle saison in a while, but they are notable similar but also notably different.

3711 has an overall "brighter" yeast character to me. Its more lemony and tart, and it seems to contribute to the beers body despite the high attenuation

Belle Saison has more spice to it, but has a similar citrus flavor. I dont think it has quite the body contribution as 3711. The spice is more peppery to em than clove, but it may produce these flavors when the beer is younger. I've never gotten any clove from 3711 at any stage in the conditioning process

Interesting. I may have to swap Belle for 3711 for my next brew

Thanks!

 

[kempshark]

m00ps, what do you think is the best yeast combination (or single yeast if you think it would be better) for brewing a saison to that is fruity and tart (I like sour saisons) while keeping spice notes very limited?......looking to brew a refreshing, tart/sour, fruity saison for the hot season (right now through Sept/Oct here in FL)....... Thank you in advance for any suggestions or advice on the yeast, recipe or any other aspects

 

[m00ps]

m00ps, what do you think is the best yeast combination (or single yeast if you think it would be better) for brewing a saison to that is fruity and tart (I like sour saisons) while keeping spice notes very limited?......looking to brew a refreshing, tart/sour, fruity saison for the hot season (right now through Sept/Oct here in FL)....... Thank you in advance for any suggestions or advice on the yeast, recipe or any other aspects

Fruity and tart is how i'd describe my personal tastes in saisons. I like pepper, spice, and citrus too, but like to steer clear from any sweet clove-like flavors in the finish. This general yeast character also seems to work really well with newer hop varieties. These have been my most successful trials which resulted in something along those lines:
- WY3711 / Omega Hothead
- WY3711 / WLP585
- WLP585 / INISBC-291
- WY3711 / INISBC-291
- Omega Hothead / INISBC-291
- WY3463 / WLP585 *I didnt put this one in the thread I think since I was making a sour wit/saison experiment

So, definitely a bit of a pattern im noticing. I'll have to start more side-by-side trials from here I think. That, or find some more yeast strains to play with

For the grain bill, definitely pick some adjunct to use at a decent amount. I usually use some combo of wheat or rye and flaked versions. Im not really a fan of oats in a saison. Ive recently been playing around with spelt and have really been noticing the nutty flavor is contributes to the middle of each sip. I really enjoy it. Corn is interesting to work with too

If you really are wanting it notably tart or a buit sour, I would try adding some lactic acid straight to the fermentor according to your tastes. It worked great for a gose I made at the start of the year

 

[stickyfinger]

Sorry, haven't read the entire thread yet. Have people tried fermenting at 90F all the way through? I just tried that with a saison I made using WY3724. The resulting beer fits pretty well with the flavor description on Wyeast's website. It is dry, spicy, slightly tart, some fruit. Anyway, I got excellent attenuation very quickly using this method. A few times I've had the classic stuck fermentation when ramping up.

My other question is that one time I made a saison with WLP565 and got a very fresh, spicy flavor, similar to a Belgian Golden Strong Ale when it is young. Is it possible to reliably get that kind of character from a saison somehow with a certain yeast or process? I have no idea how I got that flavor now and have never been able to repeat it. My saisons are good, but they have kind of a more aged character even when they are young it seems.

 

[tagz]

I've been experimenting with 3724 for the past 6 months. I did some with and without an airlock, some lower on the temp range, some on the high end. You can definitely ferment high from the very beginning without getting fusels in the final product. That said, it produces a white wine-like character that I wasn't super fond of and at times tastes over attenuated even though it had the same FG as lower fermented batches. I did get compliments on them but I wasn't satisfied with the profile.

The most recent batch I started at the normal 68 and held it for 2 days. I then ramped to 80 over the next 4. It tastes much more balance from the samples I've tasted this far.

I should say, the high end batches I started at 80 and ramped to 90+. I haven't done 90 from the start.

 

[m00ps]

Sorry, haven't read the entire thread yet. Have people tried fermenting at 90F all the way through? I just tried that with a saison I made using WY3724. The resulting beer fits pretty well with the flavor description on Wyeast's website. It is dry, spicy, slightly tart, some fruit. Anyway, I got excellent attenuation very quickly using this method. A few times I've had the classic stuck fermentation when ramping up.

My other question is that one time I made a saison with WLP565 and got a very fresh, spicy flavor, similar to a Belgian Golden Strong Ale when it is young. Is it possible to reliably get that kind of character from a saison somehow with a certain yeast or process? I have no idea how I got that flavor now and have never been able to repeat it. My saisons are good, but they have kind of a more aged character even when they are young it seems.

You seem to be describing what I am calling the "young" saison yeast character. Some strains are more likely to display those more classic Belgian yeast flavors than others. WY3711, for instance, has never given me anything close to those flavors. On the other hand, WLP565/WY3724 is definitely one of them along with WLP566. I fermented a Belgian Strong Ale with WLP566, staying on the cooler side, and you cant really pick out that it was fermented using a saison yeast

Speaking of which, I've brought every saison yeast I've got into the 90s and havent had issue with bad off flavors. The only time I got fusely rubbery band aid flavors was a saison I made very early on which went back and forth in temp swings with my dumb attempts to warm it up. I havent started any of them that high though. I always pitch at 65-70 and let it free rise for a bit before ramping the temp up. But I see many others reporting good results just pitching hot

 

[stickyfinger]

OK, that's a good description, "young." So, in your experience, to maximize that character I should use WY3724/WLP565 or WLP566? Maybe I'm just not a big Saison fan and should stick with beers made with WLP570. I love that yeast! I also love the flavor of WLP400. Most saisons taste kind of stale to me.

 

[m00ps]

OK, that's a good description, "young." So, in your experience, to maximize that character I should use WY3724/WLP565 or WLP566? Maybe I'm just not a big Saison fan and should stick with beers made with WLP570. I love that yeast! I also love the flavor of WLP400. Most saisons taste kind of stale to me.

I would definitely go with WLP566 if that is what you are shooting for. I use it for any saisons I add spices to since it gives me the most reliably spicy yeast character. WY3724/WLP565, being THE "classic" saison yeast, runs the whole gamut of flavors from lightly tart citrus to peppery spice to bubblegum and clove. If you arent particularly fond of most saisons, I wouldnt recommend using that yeast. WLP566 is also a reliable attenuator and will get your beer more dry than is you used a "regular" belgian strain like WLP530/WY3787

 

[YOpassDAmike]

Curious if you have tried other yeast bay saison yeasts. My favorite saison and one of my favorite beers is Anna from hillfarmstead. I know they use their local wild yeast but I have been in search of a yeast that is very similar.

 

[m00ps]

Curious if you have tried other yeast bay saison yeasts. My favorite saison and one of my favorite beers is Anna from hillfarmstead. I know they use their local wild yeast but I have been in search of a yeast that is very similar.

Apart from some collaborations, I havent been fortunate enough to try any Hill Farmstead beers.

From the Yeast Bay, I only personally have experience using Wallonian Farmhouse and their Amalgamation Brett Blend. Both are very good, but the Amalgamation doesnt really apply to this thread (although I have used it in a brett saison that is the best one ive tried so far). I have heard only good things about their saison blends 1 and 2 though. I think it was speculated a bit a few pages back on which strains they contain

I didn't know they use a wild yeast for their saisons. Are you sure that isn't just for brett/sours? I haven;t done any research so I have no idea.

I would think that if you are looking for a yeast character very similar to HF, your best bet would be to culture up their dregs from a fresh bottle. That, or maybe try contacting them and inquiring what yeast they would recommend using for a profile similar to their saisons.

 

[m00ps]

updates:
WY3711 & YB Wallonian Farmhouse
With the carbing issues finally gone of my 4th time using these, I can attest that this is a great proven combo. Its got a lemony ginger finish that is crisp and a bit bitey, but not tart thanks to the Wallonian Farmhouse. Its very dry, ridiculously dry, below 1.000 dry. However, both of these yeasts seem to provide adequate body and mouthfeel that it actually is more full than most of my other ones

WLP585 & YB Wallonian Farmhouse + Pink Peppercorn
This has turned out to be a great summer beer. Super light and refreshing. The middle flavor is tart berry fruits that I attribute to WLP585. The pink peppercorn is actually different from the other peppercorn varieties in that its technically a dried berry. I can taste this in the beer and chewing the whole peppercorns themselves. I only used a touch of noble hops here to be able to taste the peppercorn contribution. The finish isn't tart, but still dry. Its nice definitely dominated by Wallonian Farmhouse in that its a bit maltier and smooth than I'm used to. There is a lingering spicy bite from the peppercorn, but not anything that makes you need a sip of water or something like from what youd get from a pepper beer

WLP565 & INISBC-291
This has turned out to be a very "middle of the road" saison in terms of yeast esters. Its got peppery spice and lemon from the Dupont yeast and the sweet strawberry from the 291. Both yeasts have a bit of funky rustic flavors to them and those come through too. The finish seems to also be a combo of the two in that is more smooth than I usually get from 565 but not as spicy. Not my personal favorite, but people seem to dig it

WY3711 & INISBC-291
I had a local brewer try this one and he remarked that its reminiscent of lemonade. I definitely attribute this to the 3711 flavors I expect and how it makes for a crisp, tangy finish. The 291 helps round out the fruit flavors in the middle along with the motueka hops I used. The end result has kinda been like a tropical lemonade

upcoming:
WLP585 & beergolf wild rosemary yeast - table saison
2nd iteration of WLP585/acid malt/lactic acid - gose
also 2nd iterations of my favorite combos so far are bottled or about to be: WLP585/INISBC-291, YB Hothead/WLP585, YB Hothead/INISBC-291

 

[Brewmasher]

I'm waiting patiently for my Torulaspora delbrueckii to be shipped from the Yeast Vault. I was thinking more inline of fermenting a week with the Torulaspora delbrueckii, harvesting, then finish off with 3711.

Maybe I can entice some orders to speed mine up

Wild yeast isolated from fruit trees in Denmark. This is one of the three strains that make up the WLP611 New Nordic Yeast blend. This wild yeast has been used for ciders and wine but also ferments well for beer. Produces a lot of esters and contributes some phenolics as well.

The yeast species Torulaspora delbrueckii is traditionally a longer fermentation and slower attenuator.

In a 21 Plato wort, in 5 days the attenuation was 25%. Medium acid producer.

Joe the Brewer says: "We used this in a blend (rye saison) and the beer dried quickly, with dry estery flavors like apples."

 

[m00ps]

I'm waiting patiently for my Torulaspora delbrueckii to be shipped from the Yeast Vault. I was thinking more inline of fermenting a week with the Torulaspora delbrueckii, harvesting, then finish off with 3711.

Maybe I can entice some orders to speed mine up

It took me a second to realize those were words, haha

That looks pretty interesting. The white labs tech said they used it in a saison, probably a good idea to use another yeast to finish it since it seems to be a sluggish attenuator, for beer at least

 

[inda_bebe]

couldnt find the Blaugies strain from Wyeast cause its seasonal. Does White Labs have one? Heard HF uses it as a primary strain for their saisons

 

[tagz]

couldnt find the Blaugies strain from Wyeast cause its seasonal. Does White Labs have one? Heard HF uses it as a primary strain for their saisons

Imperial Organic Yeast - Rustic

Morebeer carries it.

 

[hopsandhops]

Apart from some collaborations, I havent been fortunate enough to try any Hill Farmstead beers.

From the Yeast Bay, I only personally have experience using Wallonian Farmhouse and their Amalgamation Brett Blend. Both are very good, but the Amalgamation doesnt really apply to this thread (although I have used it in a brett saison that is the best one ive tried so far). I have heard only good things about their saison blends 1 and 2 though. I think it was speculated a bit a few pages back on which strains they contain

I didn't know they use a wild yeast for their saisons. Are you sure that isn't just for brett/sours? I haven;t done any research so I have no idea.

I would think that if you are looking for a yeast character very similar to HF, your best bet would be to culture up their dregs from a fresh bottle. That, or maybe try contacting them and inquiring what yeast they would recommend using for a profile similar to their saisons.

I have a brew fermenting now that's a Belle Saison/ Amalgamation blend with Nelson and Hallertau Blanc hops. More of an American Wild than a standard saison, but I have high hopes for it. I tested it yesterday and it was super fruity. I wanted to sub 3711 for the Belle, but I couldn't get it in time for the brew day.

I added 1/2 oz each of medium toast french and american oak cubes and I'm considering adding some lactic acid and white wine before I keg it. New frontiers with this one!

 

[m00ps]

Imperial Organic Yeast - Rustic

Morebeer carries it.

ISO.

If anyone has any experience with this please post results

 

[m00ps]

I have a brew fermenting now that's a Belle Saison/ Amalgamation blend with Nelson and Hallertau Blanc hops. More of an American Wild than a standard saison, but I have high hopes for it. I tested it yesterday and it was super fruity. I wanted to sub 3711 for the Belle, but I couldn't get it in time for the brew day.

I added 1/2 oz each of medium toast french and american oak cubes and I'm considering adding some lactic acid and white wine before I keg it. New frontiers with this one!

Amalgamation has produced very good results for me in both mixed fermentation saisons, spurs, and all Brett beers. I'm sure yours will turn out well. You pitch them together?

 

[trav77]

Amalgamation gave me straight up horse piss when mixed fermented with WL565. But... That was fermented hot so I'm thinking that had something to do with it. On the docket to try it again in secondary or at a lower temp.

 

[hopsandhops]

Amalgamation has produced very good results for me in both mixed fermentation saisons, spurs, and all Brett beers. I'm sure yours will turn out well. You pitch them together?

I did pitch them together. Based on the amount on the bottom of the ball jar, I'm guessing I pitched roughly 50/50 or maybe slightly more towards the brett side. I tasted the starter wort and it was wicked acidic, I'm guessing from being on a stirplate for weeks along the buildup process. It tasted delicious though

Amalgamation gave me straight up horse piss when mixed fermented with WL565. But... That was fermented hot so I'm thinking that had something to do with it. On the docket to try it again in secondary or at a lower temp.

I pitched in the mid 60s and held it there for about 36 hours and then let it rise to the low to mid 70s, where it'll stay for awhile. It smelled a little sulphury for a couple days, but thats starting to fade already

I'll post back when this one is ready

 

[newkirk]

Hail, m00ps! Just spent two evenings reading this thread, many thanks to all the participants for enough ideas to keep me up half the night last night thinking.


Wanted to ask for some input on something, if anybody has any to offer. I've been brewing a saison for a few iterations now using 3711 and mosaic + strisselpalt + wai'iti hops, rather happy with it. (though after this thread I won't be satisfied until I've tried it with Hothead) Also brewed a few dunkels over the past 18 months or so, ~1:1 pils and wheat, plus 5% chocolate and 3% midnight wheats.

SO last year as a winter brew I did a Dunkelsaison - brought the malts and tettnang from the dunkel, added strisselspalt and some cracked malabar black pepper and cracked grains of paradise. (and kicked it at flameout with 4oz D180 for a 3gal batch) Pretty tasty, dry as hell, peppery without overt pepper character. Tasted really good last week. (I've got 8 750s left now, tucked away for the next two winters)

Now, this year I want to do something derivative of that, but I wanted some fruit that is largely absent from previous. After reading through this thread, I'm thinking of adding in my favorite wai'iti hops at finishing and double-yeasting with 3711 and WLP500, WLP530, or WLP545. What I'm currently imagining could probably be called a dark imperial saison, or a farmhouse quad, maybe 8.5-9.5 abv.

Any thoughts? I'm switching to a BIAB formulation, (dunkelsaison was based on my older extract dunkel) and I'm also toying with the ideas of ditching the spices and adding 15-20% rye. Just not sure where to go.

I've got a small collection (14 strains including the 4 above and three bretts) of yeasts archived and reasonable WhiteLabs selection available at LHBS. No problem with ordering online, but as I plan to brew this in August I don't know that it'll be cool enough (North Carolina) for me to be willing to get yeast shipped in before I brew.

j

 

[newkirk]

Meant to add that so far with the 3711 in regular and the dunkelsaison I've never pushed the temps, ambient has always been 66-69. I can push the temps readily enough (excuse to play with my wifi-controlled automatic heat wrap) but so far have not done so with my saisons, only the Westy12 clone.

j

 

[Brewmasher]

I found a (somewhat) local yeast lab on another thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=586133 that has isolated a wild yeast here in Michigan that has saison 3711 like qualities. I wonder if anybody has any experience with them.
http://craftcultures.com/

 

[m00ps]

Hail, m00ps! Just spent two evenings reading this thread, many thanks to all the participants for enough ideas to keep me up half the night last night thinking.


Wanted to ask for some input on something, if anybody has any to offer. I've been brewing a saison for a few iterations now using 3711 and mosaic + strisselpalt + wai'iti hops, rather happy with it. (though after this thread I won't be satisfied until I've tried it with Hothead) Also brewed a few dunkels over the past 18 months or so, ~1:1 pils and wheat, plus 5% chocolate and 3% midnight wheats.

SO last year as a winter brew I did a Dunkelsaison - brought the malts and tettnang from the dunkel, added strisselspalt and some cracked malabar black pepper and cracked grains of paradise. (and kicked it at flameout with 4oz D180 for a 3gal batch) Pretty tasty, dry as hell, peppery without overt pepper character. Tasted really good last week. (I've got 8 750s left now, tucked away for the next two winters)

Now, this year I want to do something derivative of that, but I wanted some fruit that is largely absent from previous. After reading through this thread, I'm thinking of adding in my favorite wai'iti hops at finishing and double-yeasting with 3711 and WLP500, WLP530, or WLP545. What I'm currently imagining could probably be called a dark imperial saison, or a farmhouse quad, maybe 8.5-9.5 abv.

Any thoughts? I'm switching to a BIAB formulation, (dunkelsaison was based on my older extract dunkel) and I'm also toying with the ideas of ditching the spices and adding 15-20% rye. Just not sure where to go.

I've got a small collection (14 strains including the 4 above and three bretts) of yeasts archived and reasonable WhiteLabs selection available at LHBS. No problem with ordering online, but as I plan to brew this in August I don't know that it'll be cool enough (North Carolina) for me to be willing to get yeast shipped in before I brew.

j

Glad the thread was able to help you out man

If you are wanting to make a fruity dark saison, I'd try a combo of WLP500 and WY3711. WLP500 has always given my great dark fruit, plum, raisin flavors. My only issue with it was that its attenuation wasnt quite high enough. I had a couple dubbels in BSDAs come out too sweet in the finish for me so I found myself design super dry grain bills for those types of beers. WY3711 will definitely solve that issue and, IME, works great in darker variations of saisons to make it distinctly saison. You may want to skip the spices though to prevent too much going on, but thats just me