Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[m00ps]

Yes that was my original plan - to allow the Brett starter more time and/or step it up since the growth phase is long and the cell counts in the YB tubes are very low. Life got in the way though and I had to brew earlier than planned. I did do a starter with the WLP565 as well. About 200 B cells on that one. I totally expected the 565 to dominate and the Brett flavour to be milder and take longer to develop... I too was pretty surprised that there was so strong a flavour from a small co-pitch.

I've found making a starter and co-pitcbing makes the character develop much faster. I would try pitching my sour blend at the same time, but it's so strong I think it might lower to pH too much too fast

Maybe I'll have to start a thread for wild/sour blends

 

[GQT]

mixing WY1214 Belgian Abbey and OYL-057 Hothead Ale

@m00ps:
Moved it to secondary today (which I seldom do).
Tasted a drop or two - literally that little.
Tell you what, it's going to be a real challenge to wait another 6 weeks. REAL challenge.
What a beer it's going to be!..
:rockin:

 

[m00ps]

@GQT - let us know how that turns out. I've really enjoyed everything I've used omega hothead in so far. It so fruity it almost gets you brett fruit flavors without the mixed long fermentation


few random thoughts and updates:

Wlp585 & INISNC291 - spelt saison
This is my current favorite saison ive made to date. Its stopped changing in yeast profile by now. I need to try using spelt in another saison, but im almost certain the nuttiness I get in the finish is from it. Im definitely going to try this yeast combo again and maybe some fruity hop to compliment it. If that isnt better than this, ill just go back to this exact recipe

Wlp585 & Omega hothead
In another week or two, this may surpass the one above in my order of preference. Taste is all sweet/tart berries and then it finishes nice and dry. I think the pacific gem definitely played a role in this

WY3711 & YB Wallonian Farmhouse
Ive used this combo 4 times now and it is very solid. Always gets super dry, even by saison standards. I get flavors of mostly lemon, bit of peppery spice and a nice crisp bite of ginger on the finish. One of the brewers I brought it to said it reminded him of the sensation after taking a sip of ginger ale.

WY3711 & WLP585
I've used this in a few regular saisons and one black one to date. Its a very solid combo once the early hefe-like bubblegum goes away (although I didnt get any in the black saison). I cant describe the fruit flavors too well without one in front of me, but it just is very nice and rounded in terms tart/sweet and the finish. I guess thats one of the main issues I have with some saisons. The finish isnt crisp.
I would add that this easily made the best black saison Ive done. Ive tried a few other combos, but this one came out great. You cant really detect any roast and the body is still super lean. I used sorachi ace hops and a bit of meridian for a lemony hop character to go with 3711. I would definitely recommend this combo for a black saison if you can get your hands of the seasonal WLP585.

 

[tagz]

What do you use in your black Saison? I tried a dark saison recently with D90, aromatic and a touch of caramunich but I didn't like the way the dark fruit character mixed with the yeast spice.

 

[m00ps]

What do you use in your black Saison? I tried a dark saison recently with D90, aromatic and a touch of caramunich but I didn't like the way the dark fruit character mixed with the yeast spice.

I always go with midnight wheat for black saisons and black IPAs. I've used candi syrup before too, but it gave that dark fruit flavor I associate with dubbels and BSDAs which I didnt enjoy as much. I've recently started saving half my de-bittered black grains to add at mashout in these types of beers and it has worked very well. Finally got a jet black color with the level of roast I wanted

 

[tgmartin000]

+100 for midnight wheat

 

[tgmartin000]

Hey moors, glad the inland island yeast is working out for you. What was your spelt saison recipe?

Here's my spelt saison. Inspired mostly by Farmhouse Ales book:

OG 1.044
FG 1.006
33 IBU

49.5% belgian pils
30.9% spelt
4.1% flaked oats
3.1% caramunich III
1 lb candi sugar

mash at 147 - 90 minutes
mash pH = 5.16

Ca/Mg/Na/SO4/Cl-/HCO3
51/5/15/94/43/0


2 oz styrian goldings 90 min
0.5 oz saaz 60 min
0.3 oz EKG 30 min
1 oz saaz 10 min
1 oz saaz steep 10 min
WY3726 Farmhouse ale

start ferment @68 for 12 hours, then turn off temp and let free rise to 78 (after 36 hours). hold at 75 for 3 weeks.

In 6 years of brewing, this is the only beer I've made where every single person that tried it loved it, hands down. Especially the ladies, including my biggest critic. Highly recommended! I'm brewing 10 gallons for a wedding this summer.

 

[GQT]

midnight wheat

You won't believe that. I bought a pound of MW a couple of months ago just in case and precisely this morning I was desperately thinking what to do with it and what it might be good for.
Would you share a recipe so I don't have to waste time trying to hit the numbers?
Thanks!

 

[m00ps]

You won't believe that. I bought a pound of MW a couple of months ago just in case and precisely this morning I was desperately thinking what to do with it and what it might be good for.
Would you share a recipe so I don't have to waste time trying to hit the numbers?
Thanks!

Here's the last black saison I did with the split additions of the midnight wheat. I used a decent amount of flaked corn in effort to get the body as dry as I could and it seemed to work well. 5.5 gal batch

7lb pilsner
3lb wheat
2lb flaked corn
1lb midnight wheat (save 1/2 for mashout)
1lb cane sugar

@60min: 1/2oz magnum
@10min: 1 oz sorachi ace
@0min: 2 oz sorachi ace / 1 oz meridian
@dry: 1 oz sorachi ace / 1 oz meridian

 

[m00ps]

Hey moors, glad the inland island yeast is working out for you. What was your spelt saison recipe?

Mine wasn't too far off from that, aside from the yeast.

5.5gal batch
7lb pilsner
4lb spelt
1lb flaked wheat
6oz acidulated malt
1lb cane sugar

I used some aramis hops I had on hand, which should be too different from other traditional noble varieties. Knowing my usual methods I likely did:
@60: 1oz
@15: 1oz
@0: 2oz

But, yeah, I've got another 6lbs or so of spelt that I need to do something with. I did use that INISBC yeast in it and the strawberry flavors went really well with the nutty spelt

 

[trav77]

Anyone know if YB Wallonian is a component in either of their Sacch-only saison blends (Saison Blend I or Saison Blend II)?

 

[m00ps]

Anyone know if YB Wallonian is a component in either of their Sacch-only saison blends (Saison Blend I or Saison Blend II)?

If we're lucky, @Biobrewer can clear it up, but from going from their descriptions and knowing that wallonian farmhouse is distinct from WY3711 (which I usually see it compared to), here's my best guess

Wallonian Farmhouse
Isolated from a unique farmhouse-style ale that hails from the Walloon region of Belgium, this yeast is one of the funkiest "clean" yeast we have in our stable. It imparts a slight earthy funk and tart character to the beer, and is a very mild producer of some slightly spicy and mildly smokey flavor compounds.
This yeast exhibits absurdly high attenuation, resulting in a practically bone-dry beer. If desired, we recommend controlling the dryness by adjusting the mash temperature or adding malts or adjuncts to the mash tun that will lend some body and residual sweetness to the beer.
When fermented cool this yeast will provide a cleaner profile, and the character development will increase proportionally with increasing fermentation temperature.
Use this yeast for any farmhouse style or experimental Belgian ale.


Temperature: 72-80+ ºF
Attenuation: 81 - 88%
Flocculation: Medium

Saison Blend I
A blend of two unique yeast strains isolated from beers that embody the saison style, this blend is a balance of the many characteristic saison flavors and aromas. One yeast strain is a good attenuator that produces a spicy and mildly tart and tangy beer with a full mouthfeel. The other yeast strain is also a good attenuator that produces a delightful ester profile of grapefruit and orange zest and imparts a long, dry and earthy finish to the beer. Together, they produce a dry but balanced beer with a unique flavor and aroma profile.


Temperature: 66-74 ºF
Attenuation: 78 - 84%
Flocculation: Medium - Low
I think the first is WY3711. Tart, tangy, lower flocculation, good attenuation, but most of all, the full mouthfeel. Describes it to a T, I think. I believe the second is WLP565 due to my experience in that it gives a very dry earthy finish, definitely has some citrus"

Saison Blend II
This saison blend is the Saccharomyces portion of our Farmhouse Sour Ale, available to you as a result of popular demand from the commercial brewing crowd. Thiscombination of Saccharomyces strains embodies the balanced fusion of the two foremost saison flavor/aroma characters, fruitiness and earthiness.
Each Saccharomyces strain in this blend produces flavor compounds that serve as the yin to the other's yang, and the result is an exceptionally complex yet balanced flavor and aroma profile. One strain will serve to create an ester profile of grapefruit and orange zest, while the other will produce a mild earthiness and spiciness.
Close your eyes while drinking a beer fermented with this blend, and you'll feel like you're laying on freshly turned earth in an old citrus grove.


Temperature: 68-80 ºF
Attenuation: 80 - 86%
Flocculation: Medium
I think the first one is Wallonian Farmhouse. Note the higher attenuation (from Wallonian) and the better flocculation (due to absence of WY3711). I think the second is still WLP565/WY3724 due to the obvious reuse of "grapefruit and orange zest"


I dunno, just my best guess. I havent used either of these blends, and they may not be a simple 50/50. Be curious to hear anyone's experience with them

 

[trav77]

That's in line with my guess as well. I haven't used either of the Saison Blends either but I have both WLP565 and Wallonian in my stable at the moment so I went with ordering some Saison Blend I.

Saison Blend II definitely sounds like Wallonian as one of the strains.

 

[GQT]

@m00ps: Will do the midnight wheat thing some day coming week. Will let unblended Omega deal with it.
Question ONE - what can I substitute corn flakes with? (I'm not in the States so some things can be less than trivial to procure). I have rye and oat flakes but not sure they would go for corn.
Question TWO - a bit more tricky... I'm having an epic beer getting lagered in the fridge. I'll have to bottle it also some day coming week. It has sat at +2C for 10 days by now. Do I have to add new yeast for proper bottle carbonation? (it was originally made with Omega plus very weak 1214). I'm kind of afraid that by the end of 10-12 days of lagering there will be little if any yeast left floating around.
Thanks.

 

[tgmartin000]

1. I would swap out a bit of corn sugar for the corn. Both oats and rye will give different contributions. But, both will make a great saison. Swap out 1:1 for the corn and you'll have a solid (but different) saison.

2. No.

 

[m00ps]

@GQT

1) yeah I agree you probably dont need the flaked corn to make the beer. Supposedly, it acts like simple sugars to dry a beer out without adding much flavor (like all the BMC lagers that corn is used in), but you could definitely switch ti out with something. Pound for pound, you could definitely use any base malt or adjunct or some combination with some more sugar. Either way, itll turn out fine as long as you keep it dry

2) You wont have to add any additional yeast after lagering to get bottle carbonation. Especially after a short lagering time. But if you are worried, try intentionally stirring up some yeast sediment as your transfer to the bottling bucket

 

[m00ps]

Wlp585 & Omega hothead
In another week or two, this may surpass the one above in my order of preference. Taste is all sweet/tart berries and then it finishes nice and dry. I think the pacific gem definitely played a role in this

This is the single best beer I've made to date. Omega hothead seems to be a great candidate for mixing due to its berry fruity flavors. Might try it with 3711 sometime in the future, but man, this saison is ridiculous. I'll definitely be exploring this combo further.

Im also planning on trying another farmhouse IPA, but this time with very fruity hops and adding some kiwis. Currently searching around for ideas on the best way to go about this. I'd likely just use this combo here

 

[bobo31]

This is the single best beer I've made to date. Omega hothead seems to be a great candidate for mixing due to its berry fruity flavors. Might try it with 3711 sometime in the future, but man, this saison is ridiculous. I'll definitely be exploring this combo further.

Im also planning on trying another farmhouse IPA, but this time with very fruity hops and adding some kiwis. Currently searching around for ideas on the best way to go about this. I'd likely just use this combo here

How warm did you ferment this combo?

 

[m00ps]

How warm did you ferment this combo?

I just did my normal routine:
pitch in mid 60s > free rise w/ winter jacket until krausen starts to recede > bump to low 90s

I'll have to try keeping it cool once I know for sure this is my definitely favorite

 

[GQT]

How long do you normally let your Belgs sit after bottling/kegging?
I'm having 3 gross beers coming to bottling within the nearest 5-7 days, all are just under or right above 10%abv - sure I'm tempted to start drinking right away but I believe they'd get lots better with time. So the question is what reasonably minimal maturation period I should allow them.
One is a casual saison, another is a tribbel (tripel that missed OG and was downgraded to a dubbel), and the third is just an experimental beer that was made as a tripel but fermented on saison yeast.
Thx guys your answers always help.

 

[m00ps]

How long do you normally let your Belgs sit after bottling/kegging?
I'm having 3 gross beers coming to bottling within the nearest 5-7 days, all are just under or right above 10%abv - sure I'm tempted to start drinking right away but I believe they'd get lots better with time. So the question is what reasonably minimal maturation period I should allow them.
One is a casual saison, another is a tribbel (tripel that missed OG and was downgraded to a dubbel), and the third is just an experimental beer that was made as a tripel but fermented on saison yeast.
Thx guys your answers always help.

hmm...it really depends on the abv and style, but mostly abv. First thing I might note is that I mark the last 2-3 bottles I fill with an "X" because they always have excess yeast sediment from tipping the bottling bucket to get the very last bit. These bottles are always overcarbed if left too long, so I use them as the "test" ones

I have a belgian strong golden ale that 10% where I always wait at least a month to try it, and even then its just to judge if it carbed properly. Dark ales, I might wait longer

For saisons (which are typically 6-8% for me) I usually wait 10 days or so before trying one of my X-ed test beers. If its all carbed and tastes great, I'll probably start trying the other good bottles at 2 weeks.

But occaisonally, I will get some bubblegum or banana flavors when I try the first one. If so, I wait to the usual 3 week mark before trying another. Most of the time, the flavors have matured enough that it is gone by then. But either way, I still would wait at least 1 month before having any more than a 6pack. The flavor profile changes either way from young to old with saisons. Id say about 2 months and its stable. If it tastes great to you at just 2 weeks though, go for it

 

[GQT]

@m00ps - Thanks! I wouldn't rush but temperatures over here are already climbing... saison is going to be in high demand! But OOOooooooooooK, a month is a month.

 

[hopsandhops]

Sub'd

 

[MannyEdwards]

How long do you normally let your Belgs sit after bottling/kegging?
I'm having 3 gross beers coming to bottling within the nearest 5-7 days, all are just under or right above 10%abv - sure I'm tempted to start drinking right away but I believe they'd get lots better with time. So the question is what reasonably minimal maturation period I should allow them.
One is a casual saison, another is a tribbel (tripel that missed OG and was downgraded to a dubbel), and the third is just an experimental beer that was made as a tripel but fermented on saison yeast.
Thx guys your answers always help.

My saisons improve for up to 4 months depending on the yeast strain, then stabilize. Blondes are fine after a month. Dubbels and tripels keep improving, as far as I can tell, but I've never had them longer than 6 months. I just ordered a 1 bbl system and plan to shelve some for several years to test their shelf life.

 

[GQT]

I just ordered a 1 bbl system

I brew in a very (which in fact means "extremely") confined space, so a barrel is way too much for me, but yes I would love to at least double my production capacity when it comes to big beers. Plus, of course, I would need a cellar... (I'm in an apartment https://www.homebrewtalk.com/3-square-meter-brewery.html).

 

[MannyEdwards]

I brew in a very (which in fact means "extremely") confined space, so a barrel is way too much for me, but yes I would love to at least double my production capacity when it comes to big beers. Plus, of course, I would need a cellar... (I'm in an apartment https://www.homebrewtalk.com/3-square-meter-brewery.html).

That is a very cool setup. I love to see that kind of innovative thinking at work.

 

[m00ps]

@MannyEdwards
I'd be interested to hear how your saisons hold up that you age. I stopped kegging any of my saisons, or any belgians for that matter, because I felt like the bottles lasted longer with the natural carbonation. The few saisons I kegged and bottled (purged using my beer gun) didnt hold up nearly as well as the older ones I had bottle carbed.

 

[m00ps]

updates:

Omega Hothead & WLP585:
This continues to be my best saison to date, to my personal tastes. Its so fruity, mostly tart berries, has a good deal fo bready malt in the middle, and finishes super clean without a trace. I'm planning on making it again very soon to see if the combo sticks

WY3711 & INISBC-291:
Tried the first few of these. Only 2 weeks old, but very promising. I used these new Idaho 7 hops which seemed to fit into a saison id enjoy (description below). This one got very dry, it still has a bit of the young saison flavors I occasionally get. I cant really give any meaningful descriptions on the flavors from memory. I just know what I tried was better than expected. This one was 40% wheat/flacked wheat and used a good deal of honey. I think that helped bring out the fruit flavors of both the hops and yeast
Idaho 7: 12-15%, Complex fruity aromas of orange and apricot mesh with hints of black tea-like character and a pleasant fresh herbal bouquet.

newest batch of WY3711 & YB Wallonian Farmhouse
Something's weird in this one's carbonation. Its been about 3 weeks in the bottle, but it still is undercarbed. I thought maybe I mismeasured the priming sugar, but it still tastes a tiny bit sweet and green, which has to be some the bottling sugar since I didnt get any of that in the fermentor sample. At 0.998, im just surprised it can taste sweet at all. I'll let it sit for now, I'm sure itll work itself out



As I side note, I've got a farmhouse IPA fermenting which I want to add kiwi to. I've been searching around and mostly found threads on a kiwi-witbier. The published recipe says to add them late boil but I want to add them into the fermentor to preserve them. I would like to add packaged frozen kiwi since it worked great with a blackberry sour I did. I've added fruit to there fermentor before a number of times with good results, but the fuzz on the kiwi skin really makes me worried. If I cant find frozen kiwi at the store, I'm thinking of getting fresh ones and freezing them to remove the skin easily. Then I will chop them and dunk in starsan before placing in a secondary.

Anyone have any experience here?

 

[chrilr]

That works but the seeds are a pita to get out. I would bag them before putting in secondary. I peeled mine, quartered them and froze before putting in a blonde sour.

 

[m00ps]

That works but the seeds are a pita to get out. I would bag them before putting in secondary. I peeled mine, quartered them and froze before putting in a blonde sour.

How easy were they to peel? If I was making this a sour, i wouldnt be worried at all about contamination. But maybe the amount of hops in it will protect it if I need to cube my own stuff

Good call on the bag to contain it