Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[Gus_13]

WLP566 is supposedly from Dupont too. It seems they definitely have more than a single strain in their beer.

"White Labs produces another strain, Belgian Saison II (WLP566) that is rumored to be a different isolate from Brasserie Dupont. WLP566 has a similar character to WLP565 (although it tends to be slightly fruitier), but is less finicky to work with. "
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/06/american-saison-reimagining-farmhouse.html

Yeah that's right. I remember reading about that. I've only used 566 once but it went with brettanomyces. I may need to revisit it. Right now I'm just flooded with yeasts to use.

 

[m00ps]

moar updates:
WLP585 / INISBC 291
This one still has a tiny bit of the hefe-like esters I seem to get when they are young, but is really tasty. I get some sweet berry flavors from it and its more drinkable than Id expect for being this young

WLP565 & Wallonian Farmhouse:
This ended up as my attempt at a farmhouse IPA, so it may not be as revealing in regards to the yeast combo. Im bottling it tonight and took a sample yesterday. Got super dry, nice earthyness which I was going for from the hops (apollo columbus & exp7270) and yeast. The finish is nice and peppery with a tiny bit of lemon, which I would expect from the yeasts

cucumber mint one with YB Belgian Dry & Wallonian Farmhouse should be ready to try within the next week

 

[m00ps]

@brewski09
I tried the first cucumber mint one last night (well SWMBO did and I had a bit) and the amounts are definitely suitable for~5-6 gallons. It was more cucumber than mint, which I would prefer, comes off more refreshing that way. The nose is huge cucumber with some aromatic hints of mint. The finish is where I can actually taste the saison yeast itself. Overall, it turned out better than I hoped from going off my crinkled beer stained notes from 18 months ago. It will reel itself in after a few weeks im sure and become more balanced, but plenty good now if you love cucumber

 

[Jonkl]

@m00ps Have you done much with the Saisonstein's Monster from OYL? I've been wondering if that would make a decent quasi-blend.

 

[m00ps]

@m00ps Have you done much with the Saisonstein's Monster from OYL? I've been wondering if that would make a decent quasi-blend.

Admittedly, I've only used it once in its pure form. This was in a regular saison which I made a while ago before I took a forced break from brewing. It was in a simple pale saison with some rye. From my memory, It came out good. Super super dry with a lasting finish as I'd expect from the French saison side. It also had some spicy character and some rustic hay which I'd attribute to DuPont. Lemon was definitely there which I think comes from both.

Like an idiot, after my break i tossed my culture in a starter with wy3726 and the result is now just my "saison blend"

 

[GQT]

Hey @m00ps, have you ever tried mixing WY1214 Belgian Abbey and OYL-057 Hothead Ale?
I had a nearly expired smackpack of the former, smacked it - no puffing at all; made a starter - no activity at all after 12 hrs on a stirplate... So I poured a pack of latter into the same starter, and it happily went off bubbling in a few hours.
Last night I used this starter in my beer. Today I checked the slants I made with that expired 1214 2 days ago - all slants got normal healthy growth.
So the 1214 were in fact alive, just very weak and fast asleep.
Now the beer is hyperactive, shooting like AK47. I believe both yeasts are feasting on it.
What shall I expect from it?
Any ideas?

 

[m00ps]

Hey @m00ps, have you ever tried mixing WY1214 Belgian Abbey and OYL-057 Hothead Ale?
I had a nearly expired smackpack of the former, smacked it - no puffing at all; made a starter - no activity at all after 12 hrs on a stirplate... So I poured a pack of latter into the same starter, and it happily went off bubbling in a few hours.
Last night I used this starter in my beer. Today I checked the slants I made with that expired 1214 2 days ago - all slants got normal healthy growth.
So the 1214 were in fact alive, just very weak and fast asleep.
Now the beer is hyperactive, shooting like AK47. I believe both yeasts are feasting on it.
What shall I expect from it?
Any ideas?

I havent tried to combo, but I think it would be a good one. WY1214/WLP500 has always been too much for me on its own. I love the dark fruit flavors, but the finish was always too sweet for me. Then again, I only used it in high OG beers so that may be the issue. Anyway, hothead is super super fruity, though less "dark" fruits and more like peaches, berries, etc. I think it would really make a nice fruit salad character. But mostly, I like how it should contribute greatly to the attenuation so you dont end up with a sweet mess

 

[m00ps]

updates:

INISBC-291 & WLP585
This was the first time I used spelt (33%) in a saison. I just used a bit of Aramis hops to go a more classic route in order to taste the spelt. I really like it. It has more flavor than wheat to me, but it could just be since its unfamiliar to me. Id describe the flavor as nutty and sweet upfront, but none of the sweetness carries to the finish. The yeast blend worked for my tastes too. The bit of tart that WLP585 has always had for me also rounded out any wheaty sweetness that came from the spelt. So kinda a vague berryish fruit flavor and some nuttiness, like drinking no-sugar-added granola mix I guess.

WLP565 & Wallonian Farmhouse, farmhouse IPA
I wanted my farmhouse IPA to be distinctly different from my fruity regular IPAs I do so I tried to pick yeasts that are more earthy, peppery, and herbal. I used apollo and columbus for most of the hops to try and get an assertive earthy funky hoppy farmhouse ale. Bottled it a week ago so Ill probably try one of the last-filled bottles, which tend to have excess yeast sediment, later this week. At bottling it had a great combo of earthy/herbal flavors with some citrus

- WLP566 & beergolfs Wild Rosemary
This really wont help much with the idea of yeast blending, but I wanted to try making a spiced saison with cardamom and ginger. From what I had on hand, I found the characteristics of these 2 yeasts would meld well with it. In case anyone is wondering, 4g crushed cardamom pods & 3oz fresh sliced ginger root at flameout with a short 5min steep before chilling makes for a nice balance. From tasting at bottling, I was worried I was going to need to sit on this for at least 6 months for the cardamom to mellow out. But chilled and carbed, it is definitely less prevalent and I can taste a good amount of the yeast flavors too.

 

[brewski09]

I got another batch started today with the yeast bay Sigmund's Voss Kveik and got it hot. Holy cow, tons of peach and orange blossom blowing off the fermenter right now! Not at all what I expected

 

[m00ps]

I got another batch started today with the yeast bay Sigmund's Voss Kveik and got it hot. Holy cow, tons of peach and orange blossom blowing off the fermenter right now! Not at all what I expected

If we swap stuff later, ill trade some yeast too. That sounds pretty unique for a farmhouse style yeast

 

[brewski09]

I was surprised by the aromas blowing off of it. Excited to try the beer now.

 

[m00ps]

I know you feel bro. I'm like an 8 year old on Xmas morning every time I've waited to try a new saison that is carbed

 

[bigplunkett]

Moops witch blend would you sugest for an aporcot saison i usaul use 566 should i blend it with 3711? 6#2row 4# vienna 1# candy sugar im shooting for 25 ibus and have 4# aporcots.

 

[m00ps]

Moops witch blend would you sugest for an aporcot saison i usaul use 566 should i blend it with 3711? 6#2row 4# vienna 1# candy sugar im shooting for 25 ibus and have 4# aporcots.

Well being that its mostly going to be focused on the apricot, the yeast choice shouldnt matter as much, but 566 and 3711 was one of my early favorite combos. I would definitely use something like 3711 in the mix for a fruited saison because it will keep it very clean and dry at the finish. IMO, this is very important for fruit beers because even if the sweetness isnt there, your brain will trick you into tasting it from the familiar taste of the fruit. 566 has always had a bit of clove spice and apple going on for me. I think this would work well with apricots too.

Out of the widely available saison yeasts, I think it would be a great combo

Sounds tasty. How are you adding the apricots? Be careful with sanitation, but it depends whether its whole fruits or a packaged puree

 

[GQT]

even if the sweetness isnt there, your brain will trick you into tasting it from the familiar taste of the fruit

very true. I'm so tired of telling people the beer is actually dry as sand in the desert while they insist is is sweet. on one occasion I even had to get a hydrometer to prove my point.

 

[bigplunkett]

I got them from a friend at work who brews he cleand and sinitzed them. And had no oroblem with them in a wheat beer and a sour. I was planing on pasturizing it at 160 for 20 min in a quart or 2 of water just to be sure. It was going to be added in secondary.

 

[m00ps]

very true. I'm so tired of telling people the beer is actually dry as sand in the desert while they insist is is sweet. on one occasion I even had to get a hydrometer to prove my point.

Laughing at the thought of picturing it.

Real men settle arguments with a hydrometer

 

[GQT]

Real men settle arguments with a hydrometer

Yeah. "And then I pulled out my hydrometer"...

 

[GQT]

By the way @m00ps what is the highest safe temperature for 3711?
I brewed what was supposed to be a strong a saison (about 1082) and pitched with a 3711 starter last night at 20C but somehow forgot to turn on the chiller.
It is shooting co2 alright this morning but the temp is 25-26C too late to lower the temp.
Am I having a batch of wasted time and grain?..

 

[brewski09]

By the way @m00ps what is the highest safe temperature for 3711?
I brewed what was supposed to be a strong a saison (about 1082) and pitched with a 3711 starter last night at 20C but somehow forgot to turn on the chiller.
It is shooting co2 alright this morning but the temp is 25-26C too late to lower the temp.
Am I having a batch of wasted time and grain?..

I haven't taken 3711 here personally (yet, just wait for this summer and I'll be able to tell you the upper limit) but you should easily be fine up to 29-30c. I'll let you know how it performs in the 32-35c range later.

 

[GQT]

I'll let you know how it performs in the 32-35c range later.

I'll be the first to let you know that. It is already 30C in my place. Damn. Summer will bring it up to 36-38 and 90+% humidity.

 

[brewski09]

I'll report back as the temps rise here. It regularly hits 37-40c in the summer. At least it's dry though.

 

[trav77]

I had previously started another thread about this but I think it would be better here... so just to chime in with one of my latest experiences with saison yeast blending: WLP565 (Sacch) and YB Amalgamation (itself a blend of 6 Brett strains).

Recipe was one of my house saison grain bills: 15% rye, 5% oats, 5% victory. Mashed low. OG of 1.054. Willamette to 35 IBU with modest late kettle additions and no dry hop. I had made a 500 mL starter with the Amalgamation for 48 hrs prior to co-pitching with WL565. Fermented hot and FG was 1.008 which is about what I usually get with 565.

Well this one took a one way ticket straight to funktown. Early on it was a big sweaty mess. Barnyard, hard cider, very bready and a bit of floral notes I'm assuming from the Willamette. To be honest it wasn't very enjoyable... just way too much funk. It's been 6 weeks since brew day now and it's mellowing out quite a bit. Still fairly funk forward but a bit of the 565 flavour is coming through.

It's an interesting one although I think in the future I would just pitch the Brett in secondary to limit the funk takeover.

 

[tagz]

Interesting. I think pitching the Brett hot might be your culprit. The saison yeasts can handle it but the Brett might perform better at regular temps. So your inclination to wait until the bulk of fermentation is done would probably be the way to go.

 

[Gus_13]

By the way @m00ps what is the highest safe temperature for 3711?
I brewed what was supposed to be a strong a saison (about 1082) and pitched with a 3711 starter last night at 20C but somehow forgot to turn on the chiller.
It is shooting co2 alright this morning but the temp is 25-26C too late to lower the temp.
Am I having a batch of wasted time and grain?..

Those temps will be fine. Personally anything over 30C with 3711 gets weird and medicinal for me. I know others have done it but each time I do it has that same characteristic. I like 3711 for room temp fermenting because it doesn't need high temps. I don't use it often but when I do its for a hoppy Saison I don't want to monitor or worry about the temps. Just pitch and come back in a week to dry hop then package.

 

[m00ps]

By the way @m00ps what is the highest safe temperature for 3711?
I brewed what was supposed to be a strong a saison (about 1082) and pitched with a 3711 starter last night at 20C but somehow forgot to turn on the chiller.
It is shooting co2 alright this morning but the temp is 25-26C too late to lower the temp.
Am I having a batch of wasted time and grain?..

Looks like other have weighed in. But for the record, I've taken it into the mid 90s without any trace of fusels or other off flavors.

I've done this with all of the yeasts I've listed in this thread. I don't always warm them so much, but I have at least once with each. I always pitch a bit under 70f though

Sorry you gotta convert the units. On my phone right now

 

[m00ps]

Interesting. I think pitching the Brett hot might be your culprit. The saison yeasts can handle it but the Brett might perform better at regular temps. So your inclination to wait until the bulk of fermentation is done would probably be the way to go.

I agree with tagz, but that's just an assumption on my part. I've found Brett does fine rising naturally to 80 or so, but I've never tried to warm it like I do with my clean saisons

Trav, with brett long fermentation phases, I don't think that small of a starter in that short amount of time would give you enough yeast. I do brett starters a week or more beforehand and step them up. did you make a starter for the 565?

 

[trav77]

Trav, with brett long fermentation phases, I don't think that small of a starter in that short amount of time would give you enough yeast. I do brett starters a week or more beforehand and step them up. did you make a starter for the 565?

Yes that was my original plan - to allow the Brett starter more time and/or step it up since the growth phase is long and the cell counts in the YB tubes are very low. Life got in the way though and I had to brew earlier than planned. I did do a starter with the WLP565 as well. About 200 B cells on that one. I totally expected the 565 to dominate and the Brett flavour to be milder and take longer to develop... I too was pretty surprised that there was so strong a flavour from a small co-pitch.

 

[trav77]

Interesting. I think pitching the Brett hot might be your culprit. The saison yeasts can handle it but the Brett might perform better at regular temps. So your inclination to wait until the bulk of fermentation is done would probably be the way to go.

Actually I did my usual 565 fermentation which is to pitch at 18 C, then after about 48 hours start ramping it up 2C every 12 hours. So it wasn't pitched hot but it definitely did get hot towards the end. which I agree could certainly be the cause of the funk attack.

In the future, I would primary with the Sacch and secondary with the Brett.

 

[m00ps]

Been slacking on the updates lately

Wlp585 & INISNC291 - spelt saison
This may easily be in my top 3. Its still got a tiny bit of sweetness at the end. Can't tell if it's from the spelt or just the young saison yeast esters I sometimes get. But the fruit flavors, slight nuttiness, and great drinkability definitely warrants looking into this combo some more. I barely hopped this one so all the fruit is from the yeast


Wlp565 & YB wallonian farmhouse - farmhouse ipa
This is delicious right now. Curious as to how it will taste once the hops fade. I wanted a predominantly earthy character so I used Apollo mosaic and exp7270 which I had on hand. Went a bit lighter on the hops than I would for a normal ipa. No bittering and the first addition was 15min. It has a nice balance between hops and yeast but I think that's cause hops always hit you first and the yeast usually lingers in the finish. Nice herbal, earthyness with a slight bit of lemon citrus which I'm guessing is from the wlp565. I like this combo better than the wlp565/wy3711 I did a long time ago, but that could easily just be due to experience playing a major role

Wlp585 & Omega hothead
Chose these yeasts for their assertively fruity non-citrus properties. It will be ready to try this weekend but the sample I had at bottling was right what I was shooting for. Its got a lot of tart fruit character going on and the finish stays on your tongue. I'd decribe it as raspberry combined with granny Smith. I used mouteka and Pacific gem in this. Really excited for this one

WY3711 & INISBC 291
I really like the classic rustic character I've gotten from 291, but more than that, I enjoy the strawberry flavors I get. My only gripe with it is that it isn't assertive enough for my tastes. So I decided to give 3711 a try since its one of the strains I have had the most success blending with. Used a brand new hop called Idaho 7 for the he'l of it. The description seemed to fit a saison. This is still in the fermentor though but I'll report back

I also made my 3rd iteration of my super dry Wy3711 & YN wallonian farmhouse saison. I liked this combo better than swapping wallonia for YB Belgian dry ale. That one got the dryest yet, but the Belgian dry brought some apple/pear flavors which I didn't like as much as the distinct lemon/gingery finish I get from this combo. Hope it comes out as I expect. Used slightly different hops, but they were both noble.