Evolving Bread Yeast into Wine Yeast...

[Beerfant]

Okay this might seem a weird idea, but then great ideas usually are in the beginning

Problem is where I live I do not get wine/beer/ale yeasts, and I cannot order online because it's a contraband item. The only resource I have is bakers yeast.

I've been thinking, if the same batch of bread yeast is used again and again for making wine, won't it gradually evolve into a more wine-suitable yeast, considering wine yeast is the same species as bread yeast. What I mean is, over the time, it could lose it's bready odor and become more alcohol tolerant?
ipe:

Any experiences? Any suggestions?

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

I would say you'd have better luck culturing native yeasts preferably from grape skins. Bread yeast is great and all but alcohol-tolerant yeast is built in to many fruits, grapes especially, and even better if they aren't table grapes treated with huge amounts of fungicide. So long as you wanna re-use lees from a batch you might as well culture up a nice healthy population of native microflora. I suggest getting juice to use as a substrate and adding the freshest grapes you can crush into it and let nature do the rest. Then harvest the lees and use it in a gradually stronger batch to see how tolerant to alcohol content you can get it. Keep some of your lees in a jar in case stepping up to higher gravity doesn't pan out, then you at least have the original culture. Good luck living in a place that wild microflora is illegal!

 

[Beerfant]

I would say you'd have better luck culturing native yeasts preferably from grape skins. Bread yeast is great and all but alcohol-tolerant yeast is built in to many fruits, grapes especially, and even better if they aren't table grapes treated with huge amounts of fungicide. So long as you wanna re-use lees from a batch you might as well culture up a nice healthy population of native microflora. I suggest getting juice to use as a substrate and adding the freshest grapes you can crush into it and let nature do the rest. Then harvest the lees and use it in a gradually stronger batch to see how tolerant to alcohol content you can get it. Keep some of your lees in a jar in case stepping up to higher gravity doesn't pan out, then you at least have the original culture. Good luck living in a place that wild microflora is illegal!

Thank you for some great suggestions. I live in a huge city located in a semi-desert with very little natural flora. With bakeries around everywhere, I might end up with baker's yeast anyhow, but I sure do want to give it a try. I was considering experimenting with raisins? New harvest of grapes won't be around till end of July, or August. God knows what processing the imported grapes available at the supermarkets might have gone through to survive long enough.

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

Honestly even local fruits/veggies will have a pretty healthy amount of culture on them. Yeast is all-pervasive, hence "microflora", deserts have yeast you just have to find it. I would say that a good source is whatever local sugary fruit or byproduct that exists in your area. Yeast pretty much permeates everything, so you shouldn't have too much trouble getting ahold of them. Cactus fruits, berries, whatever. Raisins won't do much unless they're locally dried and not dehydrated with heat from machines that pretty much fry them and kill any good yeast present on the skin.

 

[Chef-Ryan]

My suggestion would be to have the bread yeast as a backup.. start the ferment with the "indigenous " yeasts.. and don't trust store bought grocery grapes for having much micro flora or any store bought juices. an idea is .. are there any local commercial brewers near by?

 

[Beerfant]

Honestly even local fruits/veggies will have a pretty healthy amount of culture on them. Yeast is all-pervasive, hence "microflora", deserts have yeast you just have to find it. I would say that a good source is whatever local sugary fruit or byproduct that exists in your area. Yeast pretty much permeates everything, so you shouldn't have too much trouble getting ahold of them. Cactus fruits, berries, whatever. Raisins won't do much unless they're locally dried and not dehydrated with heat from machines that pretty much fry them and kill any good yeast present on the skin.

Raisins locally available in bulk shops here are not treated the way you are used to... they can even be a bit 'dirty'. We had a harvest of strawberries, but that is gone now. I have a strawberry wine in the making. I might find raspberries still. Lychees and loquats are in, and so are apricots, peaches, papayas, melons, water melons, and mangoes are beginning to show up in the markets. Oh, wait a minute! How about mulberries? I believe mulberries might have some good yeast on them! They come from hilly areas with lots of vegetation up North and I guess the local yeasts might even be tolerant of higher temperatures... definitely worth a try!

 

[Beerfant]

My suggestion would be to have the bread yeast as a backup.. start the ferment with the "indigenous " yeasts.. and don't trust store bought grocery grapes for having much micro flora or any store bought juices. an idea is .. are there any local commercial brewers near by?

The only brewery in the country is about 1000 miles from here. Most our fruit is sold on roadside stalls.... I wouldn't trust grapes without washing them as they are full of flies, and washing would remove any yeast they might have

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

Raisins locally available in bulk shops here are not treated the way you are used to... they can even be a bit 'dirty'. We had a harvest of strawberries, but that is gone now. I have a strawberry wine in the making. I might find raspberries still. Lychees and loquats are in, and so are apricots, peaches, papayas, melons, water melons, and mangoes are beginning to show up in the markets. Oh, wait a minute! How about mulberries? I believe mulberries might have some good yeast on them! They come from hilly areas with lots of vegetation up North and I guess the local yeasts might even be tolerant of higher temperatures... definitely worth a try!

You got it! Use your environment.

 

[Mer-man]

So where are you?

 

[Chef-Ryan]

The only brewery in the country is about 1000 miles from here. Most our fruit is sold on roadside stalls.... I wouldn't trust grapes without washing them as they are full of flies, and washing would remove any yeast they might have

well i suggest 2 options since you cannot get commercial yeast.. try not washing the grapes in a small batch.. the only flies that can destroy a wine are fruit flies (can eventually lead to a vingergy smell if not gotten rid of) and lady bugs ( can cause a peanut butter kind of smell.. much like when you squish a lady bug). or try letting the wine go naturally but keep a nose on it and if there is ANYTHING you don't like get the bakers yeast culture into it.. It is better than nothing, plus that yeasty note can be much like the smells you get from good champagne or chardonnays aged on lees.

 

[brewshki]

I'm super interested in this. This seems like a fun idea born out of necessity. I would totally go the natural yeast way.

 

[Beerfant]

So where are you?

Nowhere, it seems....

I began fermenting raisins in one jar and loquats in another.... it took them quite a few days to start... I kept them for about a week, gradually adding a little sugar at a time.

One thing's for sure, I managed to raise two different cultures... The raisin must was murky with very little foam, the loquat produced a clear liquid with foam on the surface.

May 23: To test how these would turn out, I took 2 PET bottles of 1.5 liters each, filled them both 3/4 with apple juice, added a very small amount of sugar, about 1 oz in each, and added the fermenting raisin and loquat musts in either bottle, clearly marking them for reference. for airlocks I simply used balloons with needle holes. slowly, the balloon did get erect and a little blown, and were in this state till today.

June 1: A few hours ago I decided to add a little more sugar. I added about 1.5 oz to each bottle, and put on the balloons again... so far, after about 2 hours, the balloons are still limp...

In another experiment, I did a spontaneous fermentation of apricots. As with the previous two, the fermentation took about 2 days to kick in. The outcome was a bit similar to the one with loquats. I used this with papaya fruit and a liter of pineapple juice... making a total of about 2 liters of must. The balloon stayed erect for 4-5 days and then went limp. The papaya pulp had floated to the top by this time so I filtered it out, added more sugar, and put the balloon on. After almost 2 days, the balloon is still limp. About, 2 hours ago I added more of the same yeast, but no reaction yet...

BTW, when I added sugar to the apple wines, I tasted a spoonful of the one with loquat culture... it had become sweet because of the sugar but it has a nice fruity aroma and alcohol could be felt distinctly.

Let's see where this all leads to... not keeping the hopes too high yet.

 

[Beerfant]

well i suggest 2 options since you cannot get commercial yeast.. try not washing the grapes in a small batch.. the only flies that can destroy a wine are fruit flies (can eventually lead to a vingergy smell if not gotten rid of) and lady bugs ( can cause a peanut butter kind of smell.. much like when you squish a lady bug). or try letting the wine go naturally but keep a nose on it and if there is ANYTHING you don't like get the bakers yeast culture into it.. It is better than nothing, plus that yeasty note can be much like the smells you get from good champagne or chardonnays aged on lees.

Yes, this is exactly what I intend doing once the the new grapes harvest comes in. I wouldn't trust even a small batch of grapes that have had a chance of fly contamination, as here you are risking some serious disease like hepatitis B and C! What I intend doing is pick the grapes straight out of the wooden crate they came in. Those would also have a greater chance of holding some native yeasts...

 

[Mer-man]

I meant geographically. But it sounds like a fun experiment!

 

[20grit]

There are recipes that specifically call for the use of bread yeast. Joe's Ancient Orange Mead is one. So, if you're just wanting to make something, you could certainly go that route.

 

[Beerfant]

I meant geographically. But it sounds like a fun experiment!

Oops! Okay, but my taking it the wrong way at least made me post a detailed account what I had been doing! BTW I live in Pakistan.

 

[Beerfant]

There are recipes that specifically call for the use of bread yeast. Joe's Ancient Orange Mead is one. So, if you're just wanting to make something, you could certainly go that route.

I don't really mind using bread yeast if I can achieve an ABV of 13-14%. The main consideration in the original posting about evolving bread yeast was, making it more alcohol tolerant. According to law of evolution, it actually should work.

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

I don't really mind using bread yeast if I can achieve an ABV of 13-14%. The main consideration in the original posting about evolving bread yeast was, making it more alcohol tolerant. According to law of evolution, it actually should work.

Some valiant effort! Honestly, bread yeast is plenty alcohol tolerant, and going above 15-16 percent ABV is not necessarily a good thing. There is a strong possibility that either the fruit you've used has been treated in some way most likely with anti-fungal sprays or it could also have something to do with your water quality. If there's any chlorine in the water you made your must with it could have an effect on native yeast populations. As for mustating a culture to be more alcohol tolerant is difficult without the proper lab equipment. You'd have to make a batch, fortify it with spirits to the desired level or even a little bit below, then take samples of the lees that have been exposed to toxic levels of alcohol and make streak plates and see what grows, then culture up what actually manages to survive and start the whole process over again. It seems like a great deal of time and effort for 1-2% alcohol level. I would recommend maybe just re-using old batches of lees from bread yeast and seeing if there is any change, but I doubt it will be as significant as you want it to be. At any rate, good luck, and I hope your brews will be more and more successful.

 

[Beerfant]

Some valiant effort! Honestly, bread yeast is plenty alcohol tolerant, and going above 15-16 percent ABV is not necessarily a good thing. There is a strong possibility that either the fruit you've used has been treated in some way most likely with anti-fungal sprays or it could also have something to do with your water quality. If there's any chlorine in the water you made your must with it could have an effect on native yeast populations. As for mustating a culture to be more alcohol tolerant is difficult without the proper lab equipment. You'd have to make a batch, fortify it with spirits to the desired level or even a little bit below, then take samples of the lees that have been exposed to toxic levels of alcohol and make streak plates and see what grows, then culture up what actually manages to survive and start the whole process over again. It seems like a great deal of time and effort for 1-2% alcohol level. I would recommend maybe just re-using old batches of lees from bread yeast and seeing if there is any change, but I doubt it will be as significant as you want it to be. At any rate, good luck, and I hope your brews will be more and more successful.

Thank you! That is some encouraging news! I had been made to believe bread yeast did not go above 8-9%.

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

Yeah, it should at least get to 12 with proper nutrients

 

[Beerfant]

I guess I understand my mistake... I have started with too high OG. Without a hydrometer, I simply assumed yeast would consume 4.4 lb sugar and 6 lb strawberries in a total volume of 6 liters (approx. 1.6 US Gal)

I will divide it into two, dilute them and then try to ferment further.

 

[dwhite60]

Google up "Joe's Ancient Orange Mead". It's made with bread yeast. Clears incredibly well. Leaves a minimal taste. Easy to make. The longer it sits bottled, the better it gets.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[Beerfant]

Google up "Joe's Ancient Orange Mead". It's made with bread yeast. Clears incredibly well. Leaves a minimal taste. Easy to make. The longer it sits bottled, the better it gets.

All the Best,
D. White

Thank you. Shall try that too! Never tasted mead anyway, so let's see how I like it.

 

[Beerfant]

Hi folk!

I am excited!

I think I might have struck gold! I bought half a pound of grapes and let them ferment on their own yeast! Within 2-3 days the yeast fermented the grapes dry with an awesome smell. It also restarted the struck fermentation in my strawberry wine that had stopped too sweet!

Cheers!



Below pic was taken within the first 24 hours!