Ever built a still?

[Pumbaa]

It makes me feel dirty to even go to the below site BUT . . . .

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml

What is proof?

Proof is a method of measuring the alcohol content of spirits. You calculate the proof of a spirits product is by multiplying the percent of alcohol by volume by two (2). For example, a spirits product that has a 40% alcohol content by volume is 80 proof [40 multiplied by 2 = 80]. f?

Converting U.S. gallons into proof gallons for tax purposes:

1. Multiply U.S. gallons by the percent of alcohol by volume.

2. Multiply by 2.

3. Divide by 100.

Sample calculation:

1. 100 U.S. gallons x 40% alcohol by volume=4000

2. 4000 x 2=8000

3. 8000/100= 80 proof gallons


S3: I've seen ads for home distilling equipment in catalogs ("turn wine into brandy," "make your own essential oils"). Is it legal to buy and use a still like that?

Under Federal rules administered by TTB, it depends on how you use the still. You may not produce alcohol with these stills unless you qualify as a distilled spirits plant (see earlier question). However, owning a small still and using it for other purposes is allowed. You should also check with your State and local authorities - their rules may differ.

A still is defined as apparatus capable of being used to separate ethyl alcohol from a mixture that contains alcohol. Small stills (with a cubic distilling capacity of a gallon or less) that are used for laboratory purposes or for distilling water or other non-alcoholic materials are exempt from our rules.
If you buy a small still and use it to distill water or extract essential oils by steam or water extraction methods, you are not subject to TTB requirements. If you produce essential oils by a solvent method and you get alcohol as a by-product of your process, we consider that distilling. Even though you are using and recovering purchased alcohol, you are separating the alcohol from a mixture -distilling.


S4: What requirements are there for people who sell stills?

Under regulations in part 29 of title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, TTB has the right to require manufacturers of stills to give us the name and address of each customer. If we choose to impose this requirement, we inform the manufacturer of the stills by letter.


S5: How can I use distilled spirits in an industrial product or process without having to pay the excise tax?

The Internal Revenue Code provides three methods for doing this.

Spirits that are denatured (i.e., treated with substances to make them unsuitable for human beverage consumption) may be used free of tax by a person who holds an industrial use permit. However, no permit is needed to use completely denatured alcohol or an approved article made from denatured spirits. Denatured spirits are suitable in a wide range of industrial applications, from mouthwash to fuel, etc., but not in products for internal human consumption, unless the spirits are removed.
Persons such as research laboratories, hospitals, universities and government agencies may use un-denatured tax-free alcohol if they hold an industrial use permit. Un-denatured tax-free alcohol is prohibited from use in the manufacture of any product for sale.
Un-denatured distilled spirits on which the tax has been paid may be used in the manufacture of medicines, medicinal preparations, food products, flavors, flavoring extracts, and perfume; and then drawback may be claimed. This drawback is similar to a refund; however, the drawback rate is $1 per proof gallon less than the applicable tax rate. The Government keeps the difference. For further information on using distilled spirits in any of these ways, please contact the TTB National Revenue Center at (800) 398-2282.
S6: How do I obtain a “student permit” to demonstrate alcohol production for a school science project?

Have you heard about the science fair project or school project where a student:

Builds a homemade still,
Lets leftover food scraps ferment and turn into alcohol,
Burns the alcohol in a lantern, and
Compares the alcohol to other sources of energy?
A. Well, under current law and regulations, we cannot allow you to conduct experiments involving distillation of alcohol at your home.

As an alternative, Federal law allows us to issue a permit for an alcohol fuel plant, or AFP. Under this type of permit, experiments with alcohol fuels can be conducted at locations properly qualified with TTB.

Here's what has to be done:

An authorized representative of your school (a teacher or other school official) must complete and forward an application form 5110.74 to us to establish a small AFP at your school.
The experiment must be conducted at your school under appropriate adult supervision.
The school official must tell us how long the experiment will last. They may allow for additional time in case your experiment is selected for additional competition or display at a regional or area science fair. And,
The school official must describe the adult supervision that will be provided. We require this because we are concerned about the safety of children handling hazardous materials and using distillation equipment with alcohol-even with adult supervision.
These steps apply primarily to students who are in elementary through high school. Make sure your application is filed as soon as possible to allow enough time for us to process it. You cannot begin the experiment until we issue you a permit.

Application form 5110.74 and additional information are available from the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, National Revenue Center, Spirits Unit A, 550 Main Street, Room 8002, Cincinnati, OH 45202-3263, 1-800-398-2282 or (513) 684-7150, [email protected].

S7: Can I produce beer, wine or spirits for my personal or family use without paying Federal excise tax and filing Federal paperwork?

Beer

Production.

Removal of beer.

Wine

Wine for personal or family use.

Spirits

You cannot produce spirits for beverage purposes without paying taxes and without prior approval of paperwork to operate a distilled spirits plant. [See 26 U.S.C. 5601 & 5602 for some of the criminal penalties.] There are numerous requirements that must be met that make it impractical to produce spirits for personal or beverage use. Some of these requirements are paying special tax, filing an extensive application, filing a bond, providing adequate equipment to measure spirits, providing suitable tanks and pipelines, providing a separate building (other than a dwelling) and maintaining detailed records, and filing reports. All of these requirements are listed in 27 CFR Part 19.

Spirits may be produced for non-beverage purposes for fuel use only without payment of tax, but you also must file an application, receive TTB's approval, and follow requirements, such as construction, use, records and reports.

Now dont get me wrong.
HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION TIME

If you were to contact me privatly I MAY tell you which sites to go to for information, which sites to go to for supplys and equipment, and even give you a nice solid pat on the back and tell you "have fun and Stick it to the Man"

Sometimes I'm more like Dale Dribble (King of the Hill) then I like to admit

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Ok, here's a question. Is it possible to brew something that is 40-50% alcohol? Can't you jus have a little water and a TON of sugar? Would that work? If so, is it ever done, is there stuff made that way?

I personally would never do this, because if I'm brewing, I'm making beer.. plain and simple, but very curious about the science behind what we do.

 

[the_bird]

Ok, here's a question. Is it possible to brew something that is 40-50% alcohol? Can't you jus have a little water and a TON of sugar? Would that work? If so, is it ever done, is there stuff made that way?

I personally would never do this, because if I'm brewing, I'm making beer.. plain and simple, but very curious about the science behind what we do.

The yeast die long before you get to that point. The highest alcohol % beer ever made is Sam Adams' Utopias, at ~25%. Even distillers' yeast won't get you much past 25%.

 

[ayrton]

It does make one wonder if we'll ever see distilling become legal. Funny how a very simple manipulation of alcohol and water can get one into so much trouble, but there it is.

As for me, I'll stick with beer.

 

[Brewpastor]

Ok, here's a question. Is it possible to brew something that is 40-50% alcohol? Can't you jus have a little water and a TON of sugar? Would that work? If so, is it ever done, is there stuff made that way?

I personally would never do this, because if I'm brewing, I'm making beer.. plain and simple, but very curious about the science behind what we do.

The difference with distilling is you are taking out a cut of all the chemicals that are in any ferment. Quality stills help you refract, or take out a fraction of your ferment. The distiller's art is getting the "heart" of their ferment/mash and having that carry over into their final product. Strong drinks, like you speak of can be produced, but the end product is not anything I would find enjoyable to drink. If I want to get drunk I can buy a cheap bottle of hooch, but to enjoy a glass of spirits is a whole other thing.

 

[Orfy]

I know this isn't some kid asking "How to" but.

We could do with a sticky on this one.

It is dangerous to give information on distilling if it does not give full information and advise. Then there is the moral and legal issue of doing so and using this board to do so.

I'm not willing to enter into a debate on this.

Distilling is illegal in the US and UK and lots of other countries. More importantly it's possible to Drink one glass of the wrong part of distillate and blind or kill yourself. I've posted this before but as little as 10 to 30 cl is all that's required to kill you're self. For those that a sceptical do a little research on Methanol poisoning.
You've seen the type of people who come to the board asking how to make cheap hooch!!!!!!

Two faced? maybe but all I'm saying is Please let people wanting to distil do their own research.

 

[Fish]

If posted this before but as little as 10 to 30 cl is all that's required to kill you're self. For those that a sceptical do a little research on Methanol poisoning.
You've seen the type of people who come to the board asking how to make cheap hooch!!!!!!

Two faced? maybe but all I'm saying is Please let people wanting to distil do their own research.

Yeah. If someone made something pretty nasty and got ill/did some damage and it was found out that some little bit of info came from here that would be bad. And easy to trace. I don't know what kind of liability would be involved but it seems like something worth staying away from.

 

[Erbium:YAG]

Instead of going round and round debating the legal and moral ramifications on this issue, I have emailed Gary Glass, the Director of the American Homebrewers Association. I did not mention this forum directly in my email. My questions were relavant to any homebrewing forum. I think it would be good to hear the AHA's take on the issues we question. Keep in mind, I am asking for their advice for the good of the forum and for the good of the entire hobby. They are the largest advocate for the hobby in the world and I think their advice would be better than our own speculations. Here is a copy of the email I sent.

Dear Mr. Glass,

I am an avid homebrewer and have been involved in the hobby since 1992. When I
started out, the virtues of the internet and its ability to enhance knowledge
and awareness, and open homebrewers to a world of suppliers was non existent.
Today I am a member of a very popular homebrewing forum. Recently there has been
a bit of discussion on the forum regarding legal and moral issues which forum
users and administrators can face. Since the AHA is a strong advocate for
homebrewing privileges, I would like to pose a couple of questions directly.

1. Should a public home brewing forum require that it's members or visitors be
of legal drinking age in their respective country to gain access to the forum?
If so, should this be done in the same way major brewers limit access to their
sites or would an obvious legal statement on the site's homepage suffice?

2. If someone on the forum notices or recognizes that someone posting and
querying the site is indeed a minor, should they be openly discouraged? What additional action should be taken by the site administrator?

3. If someone on a forum poses questions about distilling liquor and/or admits
to distilling liquor, should they be admonished? Some people feel that simply
discussing distilling is not illegal, so no harm is done. Do you feel that harm
can indeed be done regardless? What actions would be appropriate by an
administrator under these circumstances?

I pose these questions because I thoroughly enjoy having my privilige to brew
beer. I want people to see that beer is every bit as sophisticated as wine, if
not more so. If someone were to conjure up an image of a wine connosieur, I'm
sure they would automatically think of someone who is a professional in their
occupation, very intelligent and well mannered. "Fraiser Krane" Now ask the same
person to think of someone who is a beer connosieur. First off, they would
probably looked puzzled because you refered to someone who enjoys beer as a
"connosieur". Next they would probably think of someone who is a blue collar worker, probably because they can't do much better with
their life, of average intelligence at best and likely to be rather uncouth. "Al
Bundy" Of course we all know that is farthest from the truth. Homebrewers come
from all walks of life, are certainly intelligent, because brewing itself is a
science mixed with equal parts art, and many of them are the nicest people you
would ever know. Of course we all know that there are probably people out there
who would love to demonize our hobby; because they want to believe the
stereotype. To them, homebrewers are even worse, because they probably think we
whip up giant batches of cheap swill in our bathtubs with the sole intention of
maintaining some state of perpetual inebriation. My fear is that if someone
wanted to embark on a crusade against our great hobby, they would have to look
no further than one of these public forums and see what appears to be an
abandonment of moral and legal consciousness.

I refer to my ability to brew beer as a privilege. Just as we are taught that driving is not a right, it is a
privilege that can be taken away if abused, the same rings true for homebrewing.
The last thing we want to put on public display is a lack of scruples. Your
thoughts on this topic would be refreshing. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

A Concerned Homebrewer

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I just saw a google ad on this site for home distillery equipment... I saw it when I was on the recipes page as well, not this one.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

erbiumyag,

This guys answer is going to be biased, he has his own opinions on the matter. I just want to say, that when I was 17 I walked into a lhbs, bought "The Alaskan Bootlegger's Bible" and then proceeded to hold the book in my hand and by all the equipment for a still. The lhbs did not ID me, because legally they could not, I was buying a book, pots and yeast. There is nothing liable or illegal about this post. You can go to many many forums and learn how to grow marijuana, hell, you can go to barnes and noble and learn how to grow marijuana, mushrooms or distill liquor. There are no liability issues, I assure you.

and yes, I feel personally attacked by this question posted on my discussion topic:

3. If someone on a forum poses questions about distilling liquor and/or admits
to distilling liquor, should they be admonished? Some people feel that simply
discussing distilling is not illegal, so no harm is done. Do you feel that harm
can indeed be done regardless? What actions would be appropriate by an
administrator under these circumstances?

 

[Erbium:YAG]

seefresh,

This is in no way meant to be a personal attack on you. There are alot of questions that come up here once and a while that genuinely pose moral and even legal ramifications. Everyone in the forum goes round and round with their own take. I just want to hear from the world's largest advocate for homebrewing. In their position, they have to think of the moral and legal issues that could come up. They are the ones who will go to Washington DC and lobby on behalf of our ability to homebrew. I'm not going on an angry tirade. I'm not angry at all. Contrary to what you might believe about their bias, I'm asking them because they are actually unbiased. Mr. Glass might actually say, "Hey, it's no problem from our perspective." I would be glad to hear it. I just want people to understand that this is a public forum which is subject to public scrutiny. We live in a world where people want to blame everyone else for their own failures to raise their children right. "My kid shot up all those kids in school because he/she listened to this musician." Somehow the "musician" became the demon. Can you see where I'm going with this? The reality is that I love to have as much fun on this forum as anyone else; but I also am not afraid to be a bit serious when I have to. I grew up with parents who knew how to have fun; but they were real quick to set me straight. Even at that I made my own mistakes in life. Now if my parent were all about fun and games and didn't give a rats ass about how I strayed, I'm sure my life would be miserable right now. The moral is there's a time for fun and games and then there's a time to be serious. When you can balance the two, its better for everyone. Once again, do not take it personally. It's not about you, it's about what is approriate.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

OK, I see your point, and feel free to post your results, but post them on a new thread please. Yet, I still feel attacked as a user here in the way your worded your question 3. I'm going to ask the moderator now to delete this post so no more offense is caused.

If you read this before its deleted, some people have parents that are are "fun" and who don't give a rats ass and have a life that's not: "life would be miserable right now." People don't always turn out how their parents raise them, they ahve a mind of their own, and I'm really not sure how you tied that into this at all.

 

[Orfy]

This seems to happen every time distilling is mentioned, that's why I suggested a sticky. seefresh nothing to do with you personally.

I'll pm you.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I'm a gold member now (because I love this community, not because of this post) do I have the ability to delete my thread?

 

[the_bird]

You should be able to; go back to the beginning of the thread, and click on "thread tools."

Personally, I wish you wouldn't; I don't think anyone is really ticked off, certainly not at you, and this is a conversation we as a community ought to have.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

OK, I will leave it, but please, if someone is so offended they feel it should be deleted let me know. I want to be a valuable asset to this community, not one that pisses people off.

 

[Orfy]

Seefresh, don't worry man. I know your threads been Hijacked but the debates about 'stilling and it's place on a legal homebrewinq forum rather than your post.

 

[olllllo]

seefresh:

What the hell was your dog doing at the Eifel Tower?

Post your answer here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=13133

 

[John Beere]

OK, I will leave it, but please, if someone is so offended they feel it should be deleted let me know. I want to be a valuable asset to this community, not one that pisses people off.

Consider yourself welcomed now that you've had a thread jacked... heh

 

[Pumbaa]

Consider yourself welcomed now that you've had a thread jacked... heh

no doubt, a true sign of acceptance around here :rockin:

Now all ya need is a blow out that make you clean your ceiling, BTW incoming PM later from me

 

[Erbium:YAG]

Well Gary Glass was outstanding enough to give me a reply in no time flat. I'm actually glad to share it with everyone here. For the most part, I think alot of what he has to say is already practiced on this forum.

Secondly, I would like to make it publicly clear that none of my posts in this thread were ever intended as personal attacks against Seefresh. My posts were about the subject at hand and not the originator himself. If anyone out there misconstrued my intentions in any way, please stand corrected.



Hi Concerned Brewer,

You pose some tough questions here. Homebrewing is indeed a privilege
and not a right. In fact there are still some states in which it is
illegal to homebrew.

I'm not a lawyer, so don't take my opinions on this as legal advice.
The administrators of the forum in question may wish to consult with the
liquor control board of the state they are in to see if they have any
specific legal obligations to control who has access to their forum. My
guess is that unless there is pornographic content on the forum that
could legally be restricted to those 18 or older, the right to freedom
of speech would prevent any legal prosecution of the administrators.

I do not believe that breweries are in any way required to use any type
of "age verification" for their brewery websites. For breweries, these
are public relations measures aimed at showing they are not encouraging
under age people to consume their products.

Online forums are not the same thing. They are not aimed at selling a
product that is illegal for a certain group of citizens to consume,
instead they are about conveying information.

Now, the forum administrators may wish to limit the scope of information
that is conveyed on their forum. For example, on the TechTalk email
forum that the AHA manages, we do not allow homebrew supply shops to
blatantly advertise in forum posts (though we encourage homebrew supply
shop owners and staff to participate in the discussions), we reserve the
right to restrict posts that fall outside the realm of homebrewing and
beer culture, and we do not allow posts that are rude or demeaning to
other individuals who participate on the forum.

I'd say it's up to the forum administrators to establish parameters for
the kinds of discussions they will allow on their forum. I am not a fan
of censorship, so I think it is important to have clear guidelines as to
what is not allowed before administrators start axing posts and limiting
discussions (unless someone is personally attacking another forum
participant - I don't see any need for allowing that kind of behavior).


Anyone who posts to a public forum about participating in illegal
activity such as underage drinking or home distilling, does so at their
own risk. On most online forums, there is no way to tell who might be
reading those posts.

Posts about illegal activities could be used by those with anti-alcohol
agendas to attack homebrewing in general, and so should be taken into
consideration by forum administrators. However, I think the vast
majority of posts on homebrewing forums demonstrate that homebrewers are
generally intelligent, sophisticated people, who have a good
understanding of alcohol and its physiological affects. In my
experience, homebrewers are far more responsible consumers of alcohol
than most other groups.

Cheers!

Gary Glass
Director
American Homebrewers Association

 

[Pumbaa]

Homebrewing is indeed a privilege and not a right

hey Mods,

Can I agrue that point?

just kidding I'll behave:fro:

 

[dibby33]

hey Mods,

Can I agrue that point?

just kidding I'll behave:fro:

I agree. Who should be able to tell us that we are allowed to brew. They can jam it fair up 'em. Why should it be a privilage? I can see driving as a privilage and a few other things but brewing?

EDIT : Pumbaas avator appears to be describing it well

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I'm going to have to agree as well, its not driving on government roads, its brewing in the privacy of my own property. It may be a "privelege" but I also feel its my right.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Drinking the methanol would easily deserve a Darwin award.....

 

[Kevlar]

According to the "Missouri department of alcohol and tobacco control" it is legal to produce 200 gallons of beer, wine, or spirtous liquor per household per year. Specifically asked if that included "Moonshine" and the answer was yes.

 

[Radarbrew]

OK, I came back to the thread after 2? days. This rivals our departed Marine friend's rant, does it not?

 

[Orfy]

Is that still around.

That and the EAC need a sticky with a link or someone should put them in their signature.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

OK, I came back to the thread after 2? days. This rivals our departed Marine friend's rant, does it not?

I have no idea what that means, but sounds interesting if someone can digg it up.

 

[Pumbaa]

According to the "Missouri department of alcohol and tobacco control" it is legal to produce 200 gallons of beer, wine, or spirtous liquor per household per year. Specifically asked if that included "Moonshine" and the answer was yes.

Unfortunatly since we as a nation decided to tolerate the Feds stomping all over the 9th and 10th Amendments the Feds ATF trumps MO's ATC. The good news is you wont be facing sate charges if caught:rockin: , the bad news is you will be facing federal charges