European beers/lagers.

[venquessa]

Stella and Heineken are essentially premium american lagers.

In the same way "World Superbowl" is an international event.

 

[rockfish42]

I'm told a lot of these beers, today, use "maize". Is maize not corn? So, I wonder, do the use maize malts, or just bung in some corn sugar and put "Maize" on the tin?

Maize is corn, you'll get a larger flavor contribution if you do a two step american cereal mash using good quality polenta. The usage of corn sugar vs flaked maize vs corn grits/polenta is dependent on economics of scale and desired end product. If you've ever compared a PBR vs a Budweiser you can see some of the differences between corn and rice in this style.

 

[Revvy]

Okay, woo there. A lot of that is beyond me at this stage. So it won't be perfect in the slightest. LOL

I did some basic extract recipes on hopville beercalculus, but I seem to end up with a higher FG.

Ingredients I was thinking of using and have ordered for a lager base were:

Dried Light Malt Extract
Caramel Pils (for flavour)
(Sprinkle of) Crystal 40L for color
Saflager S23 yeast.

1 gallon batch and boil.

Seems the FG always ends up high, like 1.011-1.015 depending on how I shuffle stuff about. Adding corn sugar for alcohol instead of malt didn't even seem to help it. Might be those yeasties.

I don't think you'd be all that close to your intended goal of a light fruity pils with light DME. Here's a 5 gallon recipe for Northern Brewer's Cezch Pils recipe.
SPECIALTY GRAINS.
- 1 lbs Dingemans Caramel Pils
FERMENTABLES
-- 3.15 lbs Pilsen malt syrup (60 min)
-- 3.15 lbs Pilsen malt syrup late addition (15 min)
BOIL ADDITIONS
-- 2 oz Saaz (60 min)
-- 1 oz Saaz (15 min)
YEAST
-- WYEAST 2278 CZECH PILS. Classic pilsner strain from
the home of pilsners for a dry, but malty finish. The perfect
choice for pilsners and bock beers. Sulfur produced during
fermentation dissipates with conditioning. Apparent attenuation:
70-74%. Flocculation: medium—high. Optimum temp:
48°-58° F.
-- DRY YEAST ALTERNATIVE: Saflager S-23 Lager Yeast.
Optimum temp: 50-57° F


Personally I would follow Rockfishes advice of an 80/20 ratio of grain to corn and if it were a five gallon batch and drop a pound and a halfish of the extract and replace it with 1 pound and a half of flaked maize, steeped along with the caramel....But I would throw a half pound of 2 row into the steeping bag as well to help make sure you get some fermentable action from the flaked corn.

OR I would use corn sugar OR 100% un adulturated corn syrup and use that. There's one brand I can think of that has no vanilla or anything else added.


Or depending on what pils you are trying to get close to it would be rice adjuncted rather than corn adjucted, so you'd use rice syrup solids.

But personally I lean towards corn adjuncted lagers when I drink mass market lagers (That's why I don't like Bud, I don't like rice adjuncted beers,) but I like corn adjuncted like Labbatts.

 

[SwampassJ]

I'm told a lot of these beers, today, use "maize". Is maize not corn? So, I wonder, do the use maize malts, or just bung in some corn sugar and put "Maize" on the tin?

Maize is corn. If you us it it will need to be mashed. It's not the same as say corn sugar, it will lighten the body of the beer but it has a flavor. You will need to use a brewing calculator for the hops. The alpha acids isomerize at different rates due to boil volume and sg of the wort. Honestly with the time it takes I think you should do a 2.5gallon batch and rack the beer into two 1 gallon jugs to lager.

The fg can be a pain in the ass with extracts. Other than sugara or super yeasts like notty they are pretty much set fermentability wise. If you're feEling daring you could try a minimash / partial mash. At least then you could use the corn/maize.

 

[Revvy]

The OP is referencing threads where people are complaining about beers that taste skunky. Drink a Stella on tap versus one that has been sitting in the liquor store. I like Stella and drink it often, but quit buying it in a bottle shortly after I had it on tap and found out what it SHOULD taste like. I'm looking forward to getting it in cans now.

No, the OP is referening that whenever he's read threads looking for information on how to brew the beers on here, all he gets is complaints about it, as he states,

I'm finding it a little off putting that every European lager I look up on here to find recipes has the local USA brigade slamming it for being "skunky" rubbish.

Stella, Becks, Hieniken etc. etc. all slanted as skunk German/European rubbish.

Just like whenever someone seriously asks about brewing a bud or miller-esque beer, they get the same grief.

Maybe you need to go back and re-read the op's original statement before jumping on my ****.

And I'm CLEARLY not the only one who read his statement that way....Look at the What Piratewolf had to say...

Hey, venquessa!

There's a saying here you may know: opinions are like a--holes-everyone has one and they all stink. I think you have to brew what you know and what you love. Some folks here hate IPAs and American hops, but that's probably half of what I brew...b/c that's what I like to drink!

Brew strong, sir!

He can't get information through all the garbage from the snobs and bashers.....Most of them who probably haven't even HAD the beer.....

 

[SwampassJ]

Where is anyone bashing BMC in the thread??? You come out with both barrels blazing at a non-existent complaint about BMC, and then rail about how defensive people get when posting about specific beers??

The OP is referencing threads where people are complaining about beers that taste skunky. Drink a Stella on tap versus one that has been sitting in the liquor store. I like Stella and drink it often, but quit buying it in a bottle shortly after I had it on tap and found out what it SHOULD taste like. I'm looking forward to getting it in cans now.

But I guess that makes me a "self-righteous sheep" and I'll continue to "smell my own smugness." But only if that's OK with you.

I'm done clogging up the OP's thread (sorry).

Just add him to blocked. Kind of pathetic when someome calls you a snob then insults you again for being offended.

 

[rockfish42]

In the same way "World Superbowl" is an international event.

I meant stylistically speaking, they're an outgrowth of the beers that were brewed by german immigrant brewers and then the resulting evolution into the currently available beers. Bob's recipe here is an example of what american lager used to be and is markedly similar to modern Heineken or Stella with the exception that it's 30% more bitter and has more aroma hops.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f58/schmipielschaerheingoldter-97553/

 

[Revvy]

So.... basically everything scales, except time. Correct?

I'd expect 1 gallon to ferment only slightly faster than 5 gallons, if at all.

So if I took a 12 gallon recipe and divided everything by 12, to make a 1gl batch it would still be boiled the same length of time, with 1/12th of the hops...?

It's a little tricky when boiling a 1 gallon batch. I do a lot of 2.5 gallon recipes (That's one case of beer).

The boil time is still the same because the hop utilization is the same, so you need to figure out how much is lost to boiling and compensate from that. If your boiloff is a gallon in an hour, and your final volume is 3/4 of a gallon, you want to start then with 1 3/4 gallons preboil.

. And honestly if you scale your amount of yeast down, the fermentation time would be the same as well. But it's not really a race, a beer is finished when it's finished.

 

[venquessa]

Thanks Revvy and SwampassJ (and others). I have limited refrigerated space for trying this. I can do a 2 gallon batch by using 1 gallon demijohns, that will fit in the fridge but I'll need to buy 2 more to rack for lagering. I suppose it's worth it for the fun, 2 plastic Demi's are only worth about 6 beers in the shop!

I'll have to look into Pilnser malt syrup, I think I seen some available online.

Partial mash, mini-all grain BIAB, not yet. Soon maybe

 

[Revvy]

Thanks Revvy and SwampassJ. I have limited refrigerated space for trying this. I can do a 2 gallon batch by using 1 gallon demijohns, that will fit in the fridge but I'll need to buy 2 more to rack for lagering. I suppose it's worth it for the fun, 2 plastic Demi's are only worth about 6 beers in the shop!

I'll have to look into Pilnser malt syrup, I think I seen some available online.

Can you get one of these over there?

This is the perfect small batch fermenter. You can even lager it in your fridge without having to give up milk and food while you do it.

 

[DromJohn]

Check out the kits at Austin Homebrew. They have ones for Beck's, Heineken and Stella.
Other than the yeasts, they don't divulge the recipes on the website, but a kit purchase will give you something to work with to make your adaptations on batches 2+. I have been very happy with the AHS clones.
BTW, they use three different yeasts for the B, H & S.

 

[SwampassJ]

Thanks Revvy and SwampassJ (and others). I have limited refrigerated space for trying this. I can do a 2 gallon batch by using 1 gallon demijohns, that will fit in the fridge but I'll need to buy 2 more to rack for lagering. I suppose it's worth it for the fun, 2 plastic Demi's are only worth about 6 beers in the shop!

I'll have to look into Pilnser malt syrup, I think I seen some available online.

Partial mash, mini-all grain BIAB, not yet. Soon maybe

The problem with doing this in 1 gallon jugs is the potential for blow off (small opening, not much head space) and when you do transfer to lager you will lose some volume because of the trub/yeast/hops/whatever left behind at the bottom. When you lager you want the least amount of head space you can get. But if you do split it into two batches it gives you the option of playing with different yeasts for a side by side comparison.

 

[venquessa]

I did a bit of searching online, the only 2.5gallon like fermenter I can get is a smaller version of my 25litre ones. They won't fit in the fridge

I've done a 2 gallon batch in the demi's and yes, I just caught the blow off in time the next morning, it blew off so much stuff in the next 24 hours it started to ferment in the blowoff jug!

Pilsner malt extract/syrup, only thing I can find is:
http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Weyermann__b.html

And it's OOS. I believe this is a new brand.

I found a "Bavarian Pilsner Mash kit", but don't think I'm ready, just yet.

Is it worth trying a hopped Pilsner beer kit can, using proper lager yeast and adding my own hops? I guess I couldn't use the whole can, for 2 gallons and it might be too prehopped in that concentration. Using half the can, might be a waste, unless I also brew a 5 gallon ale batch and dump the remainder into that

This is a temporary situation, if I can brew a lager that I like and is even close to a german/belgium lager, then I will invest in upgrading my mini beer fridge with a second hand kitchen fridge that will take a 25 litre FV and maybe some bottles too.

 

[PanzerBanana]

Well that just goes to show you people who have opinions without know much about the facts behind beer. Like the effect light has on beer.

If you've got the experienced tastes for it, even with a hint of skunkyness you can pick up on what the would be like fresh.

I think a lot of real beer fans discount some of the bigger imports because they're mostly versions of the big commercial US "breweries". Just with better beer in general. And more and more of them seem to be owned by those "breweries".

 

[alepale101]

Believe me, it is a crime the way wonderful beer is ruined and then sold in the U.S. I have drunk beer in Germany and the Czech Republic, and it was wonderful. The same beers sold here are horrible. I have also had English and Irish ales fresh from the keg here in the States that were great. What is done to good beer before it reaches the American customer is as much a crime as spray painting fine art. Pity us, please, and understand why so many of us have been misled.

 

[aerod1]

Mmmmmm!! Green bottle or not I love me some Becks, here in Texas!!

 

[SwampassJ]

Mmmmmm!! Green bottle or not I love me some Becks, here in Texas!!

Try their Oktoberfest. It's good.

 

[staph79]

Don't forget that those imports have always come in green glass in the U.S. When us yanks open a bottle like that, were almost disappointed if it's not skunked. To the ignorant, it's how it's 'supposed' to taste.

Stella is an excellent brew when fresh. I have noticed that if you buy it in the grocery store or similar I get fewer and fewer bad 6'ers. I did just get off a plane in Cleveland and had one at the airport... What a crime. It wasn't old but it was right in front of the flouresent lights in their cooler and it was almost undrinkable.

Wait a second you were in the Cleveland Airport and didn't take advantage of the Great Lakes Brewing Company Pub located at the airport?

 

[Brewskii]

Wait a second you were in the Cleveland Airport and didn't take advantage of the Great Lakes Brewing Company Pub located at the airport?

I had the family in tow so we sat at some crab shack kinda joint directly in front of our gate. It was a layover so we didn't see much.

 

[venquessa]

Well lager experiment No. 1 is (I hope) fermenting in the fridge.

2 gallon boil/batch
1Kg Light DME (All I had)
100g Carapils
28g Saaz (60min)
14g Saaz (2 mins before flameout and let soak for another 3 minutes)
150g Corn sugar at flame out
1/2 protofloc tablet
pinch of yeast vit
12g Mauribrew Lager Yeast

Cooled the wort to 25C and then put it into the kitchen fridge until it got down to about 18C. Rehydrated the yeast at 35C and placed in the fridge alongside the wort. After 30 mins I pitched the yeast fitted a blow off system and moved it to my beer fridge (12C). FG was 1.050.... strong, so hopefully the yeast will be able to dry it down.

I became slightly worried about it getting too cold over it's first night so I switched off the fridge, opened the door for an hour until the temp stickers on the demi's registered their lowest temp of 14C, when I closed the door, leaving the fridge off.... still 14C this morning. Fridge back on for a while.

No bubbling yet and these yeast say they don't produce a head during cool fermentation... Well it's too early to tell anyway.

 

[rockfish42]

The krausen on lager yeasts can be pretty unspectacular.

 

[venquessa]

Well, it started (visibly) fermenting on Saturday afternoon. One did get more yeast than the other and it of course went first, but both are now showing some krausen and tiny bubbles.

Fridge was kept between 12C and 14C until I was sure it was going to ferment, then I dropped it to 12C where it will stay until activity drops completely, which I expect will occur between 7-14 days. I'll then transfer it to new containers and drop the fridge temp to as low as it should go, probably about 6C quickly and down to 2C over a week. Might give it 2-3weeks and then prime and bottle for 2-3weeks.

 

[venquessa]

Nearly 1 week in at 12C and it's still visibly fermenting.

Fridge smell has changed from sour cream to just cream, I'm assuming this is normal, but it will require a diacetyl rest?

Do you suppose it's okay to...

Wait till it stops fermenting, krausen drops etc. Leave it at room temp for 1 day, then rack it to a 5gl fermenter bucket for a few hours while I clean the demi johns, then rack it back into them for lagering in the fridge? Or is this just too many transfers?

 

[Calichusetts]

Apparently I like skunky beer because I have no issue with Stella, Becks or Heineken, "skunked" or not.

They are fantastic and refreshing...its the other people that can not deal with that. Not every beer needs to have 15 ingredients and pounds of hops in them...

 

[SwampassJ]

Apparently I like skunky beer because I have no issue with Stella, Becks or Heineken, "skunked" or not.

They are fantastic and refreshing...its the other people that can not deal with that. Not every beer needs to have 15 ingredients and pounds of hops in them...

But they aren't supposed to smell like the inside of my brothers car...

 

[venquessa]

But they aren't supposed to smell like the inside of my brothers car...

No, they are not. Which is why I feel sorry for you and not for Becks or Stella or for the fact I can buy as many cans as I like of Stella, although I think Becks only comes in green bottles... but it's brewed only 200 miles away

 

[Calichusetts]

I've also had Becks in Germany (it was 2000) and it was in a green bottle with little difference from the US version, if there even is one...just saying