Ethics Thread

[Brewsday]

This happened to me...
My Black Lab went swimming in an icy river with pretty strong flow. He was a strong swimmer but the current was sweeping him downstream to an ice jam where I was pretty certain he'd get pulled under. I knew I couldn't go in without risking the same fate. Lucky for me he was a lab...I threw snowballs upstream and he "chased" the spots where they landed until I finally got him to the point where he could climb out.
My decisions:
1) Don't risk your own life for a dog...even one you love a lot
2) Never overestimate the intelligence of a lab, but you can always rely on their basic characteristics
3) Save the stranger before you save your dog...come on man, it's a human being
4) See if the dog or the stranger will chase snowballs to shore!

 

[jerrodm]

OK I've got another one.

My father in law is generally a nice and upstanding guy, but he's one of these guys who LOVES getting things for free and will do almost anything to get a bargain.

So one of the things he does every week is that he goes to the local grocery store and picks up their leftover baked goods and expired dairy stuff for delivery to a local food bank/shelter, for distribution to needy families. Nice, pro-social behavior? Certainly!

However, I recently found out that, when he does this, he routinely sorts through the stuff that the bakery give him and keeps all the best stuff for his house--the good whole grain breads, the best-looking pies and pastries, the high quality yogurts, etc. The only stuff that he brings to the shelter is the leftovers--the plain white bread, smashed or broken pies and pastries, etc. And he's keeping the rest for himself. I have no idea if the grocery store or the shelter know that this is what's happening.

Now, a couple of things here--the food wouldn't get to the shelter if my FIL wasn't willing to go pick it up every week and deliver it, so poor people are being made better off. However, my FIL is solidly middle-class, and can easily afford to buy all this stuff on his own--he just does it because he loves getting things for free. And I strongly suspect that that's his whole motivation for picking up and delivering the food in the first place.

So is it ethical for him to do this, or not?

As a follow-up, the way I found this out was that one week he wasn't available to do this pickup, and asked me to do it in his stead. He specifically told me to keep out all the "good stuff", and give the rest to the shelter. I didn't, and gave everything to the shelter, then told him that they didn't have any of the stuff he liked that week. Was it ethical of me to lie to him, even if it meant giving more food to people who really needed it, instead of cherry pies to my middle class (not to mention diabetic!) father in law?

 

[JonM]

Here's another cooking-related one. I have an aunt and a good friend who both have full-blown Celiac. I've cooked for both of tem on numerous occasions, and I've never made either of them sick because I respect the condition and I'm very careful about ingredients and cross contamination. Its a bit of extra work, but I care about my friend's and my aunt's health and comfort so the extra work is worth it.

Let's say I have another friend who doesn't have Celiac, allergies, or other gluten sensitivity and, instead, she read an article in Cosmopolitan about how going gluten-free can help her lose those pesky 5 pounds and she made the voluntary decision to go gluten-free. I know that she doesn't, on her own, employ the rigorous gluten-avoidance stuff that people with Celiac have to (I.e. gets a hamburger and removes the bun after it's been in contact with everything else and eats the gluten contaminated burger).

Under those circumstances, is it unethical for me to not make a carefully gluten-free meal but tell her that I did?

 

[headbanger]

OOOO I just thought of a good one (not to close off those already posed).

If your vegan friend comes over for dinner, and without thinking you use butter or an egg while you are cooking... is it unethical to remain silent and serve anyway, since she isnt allergic to that food and wont know the difference anyway?

I had a friend in college who was from Pakistan and, of course, muslim. Now, being the oblivious sort of guy that I am when it comes to religion, I had no idea at the time that muslims are pretty much forbidden from eating pork due to some kind of "filthy animal" concept. The problem was, he absolutely loved my chili and I use bacon grease to help render and flavor the meat as it grays at the beginning. Once I learned of his religious aversion to pork I just kept my mouth shut and let him keep loving the chili as I figured it was already too late. I figure if allah or mohammed or whoever has an ethical problem in regard they can take it up with me in the afterlife, therefore no reason to make my friend suffer due to his beliefs.

 

[headbanger]

Here's another cooking-related one. I have an aunt and a good friend who both have full-blown Celiac. I've cooked for both of tem on numerous occasions, and I've never made either of them sick because I respect the condition and I'm very careful about ingredients and cross contamination. Its a bit of extra work, but I care about my friend's and my aunt's health and comfort so the extra work is worth it.

Let's say I have another friend who doesn't have Celiac, allergies, or other gluten sensitivity and, instead, she read an article in Cosmopolitan about how going gluten-free can help her lose those pesky 5 pounds and she made the voluntary decision to go gluten-free. I know that she doesn't, on her own, employ the rigorous gluten-avoidance stuff that people with Celiac have to (I.e. gets a hamburger and removes the bun after it's been in contact with everything else and eats the gluten contaminated burger).

Under those circumstances, is it unethical for me to not make a carefully gluten-free meal but tell her that I did?

Absolutely not! The same applies to yuppies who go vegan just because they think it's cool or trendy. One of the wife's friends had the nerve to complain to me because I used ham hock to season green beens with at Thanksgiving, in my own house! I simply told her she didn't have to eat it if she didn't like it, which went over really, really well.

 

[mcbaumannerb]

Here's another cooking-related one. I have an aunt and a good friend who both have full-blown Celiac. I've cooked for both of tem on numerous occasions, and I've never made either of them sick because I respect the condition and I'm very careful about ingredients and cross contamination. Its a bit of extra work, but I care about my friend's and my aunt's health and comfort so the extra work is worth it.

Let's say I have another friend who doesn't have Celiac, allergies, or other gluten sensitivity and, instead, she read an article in Cosmopolitan about how going gluten-free can help her lose those pesky 5 pounds and she made the voluntary decision to go gluten-free. I know that she doesn't, on her own, employ the rigorous gluten-avoidance stuff that people with Celiac have to (I.e. gets a hamburger and removes the bun after it's been in contact with everything else and eats the gluten contaminated burger).

Under those circumstances, is it unethical for me to not make a carefully gluten-free meal but tell her that I did?

To me if they have a medical condition that makes it an ethical/moral issue if you were to knowingly serve something with gluten. For someone who is using it as a fad diet? Not an ethics issue to me ...

 

[Pappers_]

Torrents. Movies and music. If you know what I'm talking about, you're probably guilty.

I don't download pirated movies and music - I pay Comcast, Netflix and iTunes. But I know that both of my sons do. Have mentioned, casually, why I think its a bad idea, but haven't raised it up to the level of Serious Father Talk.

 

[JonM]

Torrents. Movies and music. If you know what I'm talking about, you're probably guilty.

I used Napster for a while at the end of the 90s until a professor called it "dot communism."

 

[LLBeanJ]

Absolute no-brainer. Save the person screw the dog. A dog is an animal. If I was starving to death, I'd eat my dog. (and feed some of him to my starving neighbor)

Yeah, I'd have to agree with this. To take it further, what if it was your spouse or kid in the river and you found out after the fact that someone was present who could have saved his/her life and chose to save his dog instead? I know which I would choose in that situation and would hope that someone else would do the same for somebody I cared about. Dogs are replaceable.

 

[fuzzy2133]

A good friend I grew up with is an insurance agent and my family runs a towing company. We give business both directions. Once or twice a year we will expense a lunch or dinner as business. I consider it ethical.

The line I have with Music and Movies have not changed since I was in high school. If a friend legally purchased it, shares it with me and gives me the OK to make a copy for my personal use it is ethical as long as I do not give this copy out. Not different than in the 80's when you could pop a tape in and hit record.

 

[jerrodm]

Here's another cooking-related one. I have an aunt and a good friend who both have full-blown Celiac. I've cooked for both of tem on numerous occasions, and I've never made either of them sick because I respect the condition and I'm very careful about ingredients and cross contamination. Its a bit of extra work, but I care about my friend's and my aunt's health and comfort so the extra work is worth it.

Let's say I have another friend who doesn't have Celiac, allergies, or other gluten sensitivity and, instead, she read an article in Cosmopolitan about how going gluten-free can help her lose those pesky 5 pounds and she made the voluntary decision to go gluten-free. I know that she doesn't, on her own, employ the rigorous gluten-avoidance stuff that people with Celiac have to (I.e. gets a hamburger and removes the bun after it's been in contact with everything else and eats the gluten contaminated burger).

Under those circumstances, is it unethical for me to not make a carefully gluten-free meal but tell her that I did?

I would say the preferred course of action is to make what you want but be honest about it. If on the other hand it's a situation where you made something but realized afterward that's it conflicts with a guest's beliefs/preferences/whatever, I think it's probably better not to upset them, as long as it's not going to cause any health repercussions.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

I think the ethics of "sharing" music at least are rapidly changing. When I can opt to listen to a song on youtube that the artist him/herself posted without buying it, it simply means that the business model has changed dramatically. Putting your music on spotify or youtube is akin to playing the guitar on the street corner. You put yourself out there and maybe something good happens, maybe it doesnt.

In the case of torrents... yeah... that is theft of intellectual property. I dont think it warrants some of the unbelievable fines people have received for it, but yes it should be punished.

 

[jerrodm]

Regarding the music/movies thing, I've never felt bad about burning music from others. If someone burns me some tracks that I really like, I'll happily go out and pay $15 for the CD, or $25 for the LP if available. The way I look at it, if they never shared, I might not ever have gotten to hear that music and the artist never would have made the sale on my copy. Everybody wins. I suppose for those who never bother to go out and buy the album, it might be a different matter.

P.S.--This exact thing happened to me last week--was at home for the holidays and my brother burned a copy of Gary Clark Jr's "Blak and Blu" album for me. I listened to it, loved it, and two days later saw it on double LP vinyl at a record shop, and bought it happily for $23. And never felt a bit of guilt over having listened to it first on a "pirated" copy.

 

[cluckk]

Here's another one for you. Is it wrong to despise fat people who use rascal wheelchairs at the grocery store when the very thing they need the most is a walk? This argument assumes they are not handicapped of course.

How do you know their obesity is not compounded by a long term health problem? Besides the weight may be their fault but at a certain point they need the wheelchair. You're despising them is assuming you have some interest in their life, weight, health or activities.

 

[Lushife]

Here's another one for you. Is it wrong to despise fat people who use rascal wheelchairs at the grocery store when the very thing they need the most is a walk? This argument assumes they are not handicapped of course.

My sister is legitimately handicapped so it pisses me off when they take up handicap parking spot especially when they take the ones for vans with ramps and don't need them.

 

[Airborneguy]

I knew I was wrong when I used to download music and videos, but I gave that up a long time ago because of viruses and stuff. When it comes to copying from friends, I don't feel the slightest bit of guilt at all. Music companies have all of the money they need to lobby for laws beneficial to their side, but to me that doesn't change anything. Illegal or not, they are selling a permanent copy of the songs when they sell CDs. In my opinion, that CD is a license, and the owner can transfer it as long as they aren't making money off of it because that goes against the nature of the original purchase, which was to listen to the music.

 

[Homercidal]

I knew I was wrong when I used to download music and videos, but I gave that up a long time ago because of viruses and stuff. When it comes to copying from friends, I don't feel the slightest bit of guilt at all. Music companies have all of the money they need to lobby for laws beneficial to their side, but to me that doesn't change anything. Illegal or not, they are selling a permanent copy of the songs when they sell CDs. In my opinion, that CD is a license, and the owner can transfer it as long as they aren't making money off of it because that goes against the nature of the original purchase, which was to listen to the music.

Ethics aside, they are fighting a losing battle. They have spent a WHOLE LOT of money lobbying for laws and trying to come up with technology to combat "piracy". They should have used that capital to come with ways to encourage people to purchase their music legally.

The gravy train has run dry. Some day we may even see printer ink sell for a reasonable amount of money too.

 

[Lushife]

OK I've got another one.

My father in law is generally a nice and upstanding guy, but he's one of these guys who LOVES getting things for free and will do almost anything to get a bargain.

So one of the things he does every week is that he goes to the local grocery store and picks up their leftover baked goods and expired dairy stuff for delivery to a local food bank/shelter, for distribution to needy families. Nice, pro-social behavior? Certainly!

However, I recently found out that, when he does this, he routinely sorts through the stuff that the bakery give him and keeps all the best stuff for his house--the good whole grain breads, the best-looking pies and pastries, the high quality yogurts, etc. The only stuff that he brings to the shelter is the leftovers--the plain white bread, smashed or broken pies and pastries, etc. And he's keeping the rest for himself. I have no idea if the grocery store or the shelter know that this is what's happening.

Now, a couple of things here--the food wouldn't get to the shelter if my FIL wasn't willing to go pick it up every week and deliver it, so poor people are being made better off. However, my FIL is solidly middle-class, and can easily afford to buy all this stuff on his own--he just does it because he loves getting things for free. And I strongly suspect that that's his whole motivation for picking up and delivering the food in the first place.

So is it ethical for him to do this, or not?

As a follow-up, the way I found this out was that one week he wasn't available to do this pickup, and asked me to do it in his stead. He specifically told me to keep out all the "good stuff", and give the rest to the shelter. I didn't, and gave everything to the shelter, then told him that they didn't have any of the stuff he liked that week. Was it ethical of me to lie to him, even if it meant giving more food to people who really needed it, instead of cherry pies to my middle class (not to mention diabetic!) father in law?

That's a bit of a gray area but as long as he isn't wasting or being a glutton about it I think it's ok.

 

[jerrodm]

That's a bit of a gray area but as long as he isn't wasting or being a glutton about it I think it's ok.

I can see what you're saying, but it pretty much chaps my @ss to think that he's keeping all the "good" stuff for himself and giving the leftovers to the people who really need it. I mean, I don't think it would be wrong to keep one or two things, given that he is donating his time, gas &c. But when I asked him about it he said, "Oh, they don't appreciate this stuff anyway, so I just keep it." It seems like it's not about the act of giving at all, but just wanting to get some free snacks.

Also, I've just got to say that I can't imagine why he thinks baked goods from the store are that great, particularly when his wife (my MIL) is a phenomenal baker, and makes great pies, cakes, bread &c. Plus, he seriously is diabetic and doesn't need the extra sugar!

 

[CreamyGoodness]

I can see what you're saying, but it pretty much chaps my @ss to think that he's keeping all the "good" stuff for himself and giving the leftovers to the people who really need it. I mean, I don't think it would be wrong to keep one or two things, given that he is donating his time, gas &c. But when I asked him about it he said, "Oh, they don't appreciate this stuff anyway, so I just keep it." It seems like it's not about the act of giving at all, but just wanting to get some free snacks.

Also, I've just got to say that I can't imagine why he thinks baked goods from the store are that great, particularly when his wife (my MIL) is a phenomenal baker, and makes great pies, cakes, bread &c. Plus, he seriously is diabetic and doesn't need the extra sugar!

I DEFINITELY see where you are coming from, but I like to take a utilitarian approach to these sorts of things. If I am doing good, and I am getting something in return for doing good, at least I am still doing good. This is why I am not against tax breaks for charitable donations.

 

[mcbaumannerb]

I can see what you're saying, but it pretty much chaps my @ss to think that he's keeping all the "good" stuff for himself and giving the leftovers to the people who really need it. I mean, I don't think it would be wrong to keep one or two things, given that he is donating his time, gas &c. But when I asked him about it he said, "Oh, they don't appreciate this stuff anyway, so I just keep it." It seems like it's not about the act of giving at all, but just wanting to get some free snacks.

I would call an ethical foul on that one. I'm sure if your FIL told the store he was keeping some and giving the rest to the shelter they would think twice about doing it. And what would happen if the store manager decided to nominate him for some kind of service award (for doing what he believed to be a totally noble thing)? If you're doing charitable work then I think it should be done selflessly.

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

Here's another one. Kind of funny. My wife has a serious issue when it comes to the meat she will eat. She is one of those people that will only eat meat that comes from a store and then only beef, pork and chicken. Her brother used to raise cows and goats. He and his wife used to find it funny to feed her something from the farm and not tell her until after she ate it. Well they thought it was funny once, because she refuses to eat meat at their house anymore! On a couple of occasions, she has eaten something with me that I knew was NOT from the store. Should I tell her? I have on a couple of occasions. Come to find out, she really likes elk sausage. But she would never knowingly eat it again! hahaha I find what my bil & sil did to be a little mean, not necessarily unethical. When I don't tell her, it is not out of meanness, it is so she doesn't make herself sick or get upset and ruin my night! Is that wrong?

 

[jerrodm]

Yeah I mean I can see keeping something every once in a while (call it a Good Samaritan tax or something), but it seems to me like giving the extras to poor folks is just what he has to do in order to get his free bread and yogurt, which just bugs me. But I admit that ethically it's a little bit of a gray area, which is why I thought it would be interesting to bring it up. I have to admit, I got a little guilty pleasure about dropping all that nice bread and pastries off at the shelter, then telling him they didn't have any good stuff for him to keep that week...ethical? I don't know. But it was fun.

 

[jerrodm]

Here's another one. Kind of funny. My wife has a serious issue when it comes to the meat she will eat. She is one of those people that will only eat meat that comes from a store and then only beef, pork and chicken. Her brother used to raise cows and goats. He and his wife used to find it funny to feed her something from the farm and not tell her until after she ate it. Well they thought it was funny once, because she refuses to eat meat at their house anymore! On a couple of occasions, she has eaten something with me that I knew was NOT from the store. Should I tell her? I have on a couple of occasions. Come to find out, she really likes elk sausage. But she would never knowingly eat it again! hahaha I find what my bil & sil did to be a little mean, not necessarily unethical. When I don't tell her, it is not out of meanness, it is so she doesn't make herself sick or get upset and ruin my night! Is that wrong?

I'd say not unethical--you're basically protecting her from her own irrationality. On the other hand, it might not be smart strategically...I mean, you do have to live with the woman after all. But that's a different matter. You should give her a book on industrial farming/feedlots, and tell her that the best meat she can probably get is the stuff from her brother's farm!

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

I'd say not unethical--you're basically protecting her from her own irrationality. On the other hand, it might not be smart strategically...I mean, you do have to live with the woman after all. But that's a different matter. You should give her a book on industrial farming/feedlots, and tell her that the best meat she can probably get is the stuff from her brother's farm!

It's not a "good or bad for you" thing. It is strictly the fact that she or someone she knows might have KNOWN the animal hahaha She's funny that way. Awesome woman but kinda quirky at times. Probably why I like her!

 

[jerrodm]

It's not a "good or bad for you" thing. It is strictly the fact that she or someone she knows might have KNOWN the animal hahaha She's funny that way. Awesome woman but kinda quirky at times. Probably why I like her!

Oh I hear you. My dad bought a couple dozen chickens explicitly to use as fryers...four years later they're still running around the backyard, because my mom says, "Once you give it a name, it's family and you can't eat it." And of course she named every single one of them as soon as they came through the door. He should have known better.

 

[Lushife]

If that's the case then I would say he's being greedy about it. I thought he just taking a little so he had didn't have to by milk or pie when he needed it

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

Oh I hear you. My dad bought a couple dozen chickens explicitly to use as fryers...four years later they're still running around the backyard, because my mom says, "Once you give it a name, it's family and you can't eat it." And of course she named every single one of them as soon as they came through the door. He should have known better.

This. 100% this!

 

[Mdsutton]

Changing prices, wrong!
Trying to correct either change given or charged to little, try twice and call it good.
Torrents, Actor/Actress, singer, tell us all we pay to little in taxes, complaining about the 1% (which they are), I am only doing what they said is right.

OK, along the lines of movies and music, Books, I own a copy is down loading a PDF of it wrong?

Beer related, bought a used Keggarator, came with TWO full size kegs. Keep them or try to return to Brewer?

 

[jerrodm]

Changing prices, wrong!
Trying to correct either change given or charged to little, try twice and call it good.
Torrents, Actor/Actress, singer, tell us all we pay to little in taxes, complaining about the 1% (which they are), I am only doing what they said is right.

OK, along the lines of movies and music, Books, I own a copy is down loading a PDF of it wrong?

Beer related, bought a used Keggarator, came with TWO full size kegs. Keep them or try to return to Brewer?

The keg question is pretty tough...I might make a phone call, but if no one called me back I wouldn't lose any sleep over it...