Ethics Thread

[jbaysurfer]

I think a really surprised, loud, incredulous expression of: "______is cheating on you?????"

Might steer the conversation in a direction that doesn't require you to betray your ethical obligations to either of them....

 

[FatDragon]

Just before the first snow hit last year, had a dog run across a 4 lane busy road on my way biking home one day, owner didn't have the leash on (stupid considering the traffic). Dog bolts right into the road. I start hollering and wave my arms, pull my bike across the lanes and directly in front of a ton of cars going fast enough to do some harm. Someone on the other side of the road did the same for the other direction.

Dog ran right by me ignoring the owner, you could see the "YAH AWESOME RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYA" in it's eyes. Pup had no idea how close it was to getting smackered.

Anyhoo, owner was on the opposite side of the road, dog eventually ran back oblivious of all the honking cars, other person blocking traffic looked like she had a few unhappy words for the person in question. I just watched long enough to watch the leash go on.

Hope the traffic wasn't so heavy that cutting in front of it was going to be a risk to yourself or any drivers. If I see an animal on or near the road that's at risk of running into the road and getting smooshed, I'm going to slow down and be careful passing it just like I would with pedestrians or cyclists, but if an animal darts into the road and avoidance/preventative measures increase the chance of a traffic accident, it's roadkill. Human life trumps animal life, and I'm pretty sure it's your legal responsibility as a driver as well, at least in most places*. Sorry to the owner (if it's a pet), sorrier to the animal, but that's how it is**.

*I'm actually surprised I didn't encounter this question while studying for the Chinese DL theory exam last week. Had to take the test to transfer my California license now that I've been henpecked into the PITA that is car ownership in a large Chinese city...
**opinion

-----

Speaking of getting my Chinese driver's license, here's a question:

I took a hard-fought day off of work to get my DL transferred. It's an all-day process that involves going across the city a few times thanks to all the idiotic bureaucracy going on. I wound up short a form on my first trip to the DMV - because of a language-barrier miscommunication - and convinced the lady at the counter to let me fill in my address from that form - promising to bring a copy when I returned in the afternoon - against the possibility that she could get in trouble at work if the info were wrong; it can't be changed once it's been entered.

When I returned with the form that afternoon, the address on the form didn't match what I told her (half is identical, the other half is way different, I'm not sure if it is another way of writing my address or some other place entirely) she didn't say anything, but gave me a bit of a scowl before she sent me off with a receipt to pick up my license from another window.

With my experience in China, I don't think she'll get in any notable amount of trouble even if the discrepancy between the addresses is discovered by anyone else, but was it ethical for me to ask her to take that risk in order to save myself the trouble (time, taxi fees, extra day off work) of taking an extra trip to go get the residence form before turning in my application?

tl;dr - DMV worker might get in trouble because I asked her to help me avoid a second day of running around town to get my driver's license. Ethical, or bad move?

 

[Singletrack]

tl;dr - DMV worker might get in trouble because I asked her to help me avoid a second day of running around town to get my driver's license. Ethical, or bad move?

If the worker is in a position of authority and can freely answer "no" to your request, then it is ethical for you to ask. If she felt pressured to say yes for some reason, then it is unethical to ask.

However, if you think she may get in trouble by saying yes, even though she is free to say no, you may have done the wrong thing by asking. Sorry. In my view, we must be ethical; we should also try to be good people. (No one said it would be easy.)

 

[FatDragon]

If the worker is in a position of authority and can freely answer "no" to your request, then it is ethical for you to ask. If she felt pressured to say yes for some reason, then it is unethical to ask.

However, if you think she may get in trouble by saying yes, even though she is free to say no, you may have done the wrong thing by asking. Sorry. In my view, we must be ethical; we should also try to be good people. (No one said it would be easy.)

Although I phrased it poorly in the prior post, I didn't really think of her getting in any trouble until I referenced getting my DL in this thread, which made me think.

What went through my head at the time:

- What a pain in the ass.
- Wait a second, this is Chinese bureaucracy, the rules are made to be circumvented.
- Besides, although I'll probably format it differently because Chinese addresses can be written in a dozen ways, it's totally my correct address.
- What's the worst that can happen if I get it wrong and it gets caught?
- She can probably change it this afternoon - she's just saying she can't because she doesn't want to go through the trouble. If not her, then her supervisor.
- If she really can't, I'll probably just have to apply for an address change on my license or get my residence form updated and give them an updated copy. That would be a pain.
- Worst case scenario, I have to go through the whole process again. I'm willing to risk it.
- Anyway, if anything looks like it's going to go wrong, I'll just go into denial mode. As a Chinese-speaking foreigner in good standing for seven years in Wuhan, standing around in the government office and bitching about something like this almost always ends successfully, especially if you're tactful enough to be generally low-key and controlled about it (because nobody likes a tantrum). Sad but true.

That last one looks bad to an outsider, but it's a fact of life in China, especially second-tier cities and below, and the common folk nearby tend to support the battle. Respectful expats in China try not to cultivate or reinforce any stereotypes about a-hole foreigners, but Chinese in general are just as careful to prevent bureaucracy or other social ills from harming the overall experience and impression of their "honored foreign guests". In twenty years it won't be this way, and even now in places like Shanghai and Beijing expats can get away with a lot less (they make up for it by getting stuff done by proxy through friends or agencies, pretty much how most connected or well-off Chinese do), but that's how it is here and now, so I say "when in Rome..."

But yeah, another long post just to say that I only thought of potential fallout for her in retrospect, at the time it wasn't brought up and didn't cross my mind, hence asking after the fact.

 

[electrolight]

"You know what the problem is Grant?"
"No, what is it?"
"There's only one time people care about ethics."
"When they get caught?"
"No, when they catch someone else."

 

[Zuljin]

From the looks of YouTube, if you can survive driving in China, your drivers license should come on a plaque with a medal and a ribbon. Is it more of an orderly chaos in person?

 

[b-boy]

From the looks of YouTube, if you can survive driving in China, your drivers license should come on a plaque with a medal and a ribbon. Is it more of an orderly chaos in person?

I was in Beijing a few years back. It's nuts, but it is a 'controlled' nuts. There are bikes, trucks, cars, and pedestrians everywhere. Somehow it all seems to work. I saw very few accidents. I had a driver. I would not risk it myself.

 

[FatDragon]

From the looks of YouTube, if you can survive driving in China, your drivers license should come on a plaque with a medal and a ribbon. Is it more of an orderly chaos in person?

I was in Beijing a few years back. It's nuts, but it is a 'controlled' nuts. There are bikes, trucks, cars, and pedestrians everywhere. Somehow it all seems to work. I saw very few accidents. I had a driver. I would not risk it myself.

I'm definitely not looking forward to it. That said, the key is to be observant and extremely defensive. Drivers will pull the most egregious crap at any moment, so everybody drives slowly (think converting MPH from US traffic flow to Km/H in a one-to-one ratio on most roads) and they're ready to stop or get out of the way whenever someone does something ridiculous. My theory on why most drivers don't seem to get upset by others doing stupid crap is that they do the same things themselves, so it's a live and let live mentality, but I'm going to have a much harder time with it - I predict a significant increase in blood pressure from the moment I first get behind the wheel when we get our car in a couple weeks.

 

[DrunkleJon]

Todays ethical quandry. I think I chose properly. Public restroom at work. Some guy answered the phone while on the can. What to do? Remain and be courteous by withholding a flush or decide that if the echo doesnt give what he is doing away and make sure the flush is prominent.

I chose the latter.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

If he's answering calls in the crapper, its likely whomever is on the other end is someone he has deemed hearty enough of sensibility and spirit to deal with the sounds of flushing, running water, and coffee-farts. I'm betting it was his wife.

Flush at will.

 

[fuzzy2133]

I agree with making all the bathroom noise you want. Cell phones are getting good and cutting background noises.

 

[Pyg]

Todays ethical quandry. I think I chose properly. Public restroom at work. Some guy answered the phone while on the can. What to do? Remain and be courteous by withholding a flush or decide that if the echo doesnt give what he is doing away and make sure the flush is prominent.

I chose the latter.

He knows where he is....
He knows the consequences...
Flush away! :rockin:

 

[SnakeRidge]

If he's answering calls in the crapper, its likely whomever is on the other end is someone he has deemed hearty enough of sensibility and spirit to deal with the sounds of flushing, running water, and coffee-farts. I'm betting it was his wife.

Flush at will.

Yes, but does the person on the other end of the line get a courtesy flush when your output is extraordinarily colorful and pungent?

 

[Opiate42]

Hope the traffic wasn't so heavy that cutting in front of it was going to be a risk to yourself or any drivers. If I see an animal on or near the road that's at risk of running into the road and getting smooshed, I'm going to slow down and be careful passing it just like I would with pedestrians or cyclists, but if an animal darts into the road and avoidance/preventative measures increase the chance of a traffic accident, it's roadkill. Human life trumps animal life, and I'm pretty sure it's your legal responsibility as a driver as well, at least in most places*. Sorry to the owner (if it's a pet), sorrier to the animal, but that's how it is**.

There was space for me to get out there before the dog and the cars got too close.

I'd feel more sorry for the animal too. It doesn't know what's going on and it shouldn't suffer from it's owners idiocy but I hear you, not going to cause a pile up for a rabbit or dog in the road or anything if it can b helped. All I can hope for is that the dog dies instantly.

Todays ethical quandry. I think I chose properly. Public restroom at work. Some guy answered the phone while on the can. What to do? Remain and be courteous by withholding a flush or decide that if the echo doesnt give what he is doing away and make sure the flush is prominent.

I chose the latter.

FLUSH.

He knows where he is....
He knows the consequences...
Flush away! :rockin:

And this is why.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

FLUSH IT !
Regards, GF.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

Just had one. A coworker of mine is a real piece of work. Not only is he lazy and bad at his job, he's rude as well. I really don't have a single nice thing to say about him.

This morning someone passed a card around that his mother had passed.

Now, I am not his fan, and I will probably never be his fan. He's one of a very few people in my career I have wanted to see fired, and if I were his manager I would fire him in less than one 8-hour shift... but under no circumstances did I want him to lose his mother.

If I signed the card I could be labeled a hypocrite, but NOT signing the card would have made me a true jerk. I just signed it "My sincere sympathies, James."

Hope that was the right thing to do.

 

[firerat]

Just had one. A coworker of mine is a real piece of work. Not only is he lazy and bad at his job, he's rude as well. I really don't have a single nice thing to say about him.

This morning someone passed a card around that his mother had passed.

Now, I am not his fan, and I will probably never be his fan. He's one of a very few people in my career I have wanted to see fired, and if I were his manager I would fire him in less than one 8-hour shift... but under no circumstances did I want him to lose his mother.

If I signed the card I could be labeled a hypocrite, but NOT signing the card would have made me a true jerk. I just signed it "My sincere sympathies, James."

Hope that was the right thing to do.

You did right.

Just cause the dude sucks doesn't mean you should suck too.

 

[b-boy]

Todays ethical quandry. I think I chose properly. Public restroom at work. Some guy answered the phone while on the can. What to do? Remain and be courteous by withholding a flush or decide that if the echo doesnt give what he is doing away and make sure the flush is prominent.

I chose the latter.

Fart loudly, then flush. I believe that was from one of Emily Post's books.

 

[dkwolf]

Just had one. A coworker of mine is a real piece of work. Not only is he lazy and bad at his job, he's rude as well. I really don't have a single nice thing to say about him.

This morning someone passed a card around that his mother had passed.

Now, I am not his fan, and I will probably never be his fan. He's one of a very few people in my career I have wanted to see fired, and if I were his manager I would fire him in less than one 8-hour shift... but under no circumstances did I want him to lose his mother.

If I signed the card I could be labeled a hypocrite, but NOT signing the card would have made me a true jerk. I just signed it "My sincere sympathies, James."

Hope that was the right thing to do.

The true jerk move would have been adding "Why couldn't it have been you?" to the bottom of your signature.

 

[passedpawn]

I'm definitely not looking forward to it. That said, the key is to be observant and extremely defensive. Drivers will pull the most egregious crap at any moment, so everybody drives slowly (think converting MPH from US traffic flow to Km/H in a one-to-one ratio on most roads) and they're ready to stop or get out of the way whenever someone does something ridiculous. My theory on why most drivers don't seem to get upset by others doing stupid crap is that they do the same things themselves, so it's a live and let live mentality, but I'm going to have a much harder time with it - I predict a significant increase in blood pressure from the moment I first get behind the wheel when we get our car in a couple weeks.

How'd it go?

I've been there (and around China) a couple of times. In the city, they drive really slow. The intersections are ridiculous. The scooters don't obey any traffic law at a all, and to my eyes none of them should live through a day of driving like that, but because the car drivers are slow and cautious there's no accidents.

I spent a week riding a bike around Beijing. That was fun, really.