Erdinger Dunkle (Dunkelweizen) Clone

[mtom1991]

Have a few brews (Partial Mash) under my belt and the last two Iv done have come out very well, these were my own take on Blue Moon were I slightly altered an existing recipe I found.

I really enjoy Erdinger Dunkle so want to do my own version of this for my next brew. Iv used some existing recipes as inspiration and selected some of my own grains.

What I can’t work out is why my FG is coming out so low in Brewers Friend.

Target for this style is 1.010 - 1.014 and mine is coming out at 1.007 and nothing I change seems to alter this.

Obviously this is the first time Iv strayed from the safe path of a tried and tested recipe so was hoping for some help from this forum.

What changes should I make to bring the FG upto style guide ?

Any recommendations or alterations to my planned recipe ?

19L Batch

Wheat DME (1.5 kg)
Munich DME (1.5 kg) or Weyermann Munich II (Dark)

Weyermann Dark Wheat Malt (1 kg)
Weyermann Chocolate Wheat (0.25 kg)
Weyermann CaraWheat (0.25 kg)

Hops - Mittlefruh
Yeast - WB06

 

[deuc224]

Dude, if you want to try and work up this recipe im all in. Ive tried one recipe(all grain) i thought it would be and it was nowhere close to it. Since then ive been reading up on it and have come across wheat, pils, chocolate, melanoidin with wlp320 yeast to not have the banana most hefes have. Im down for this journey as i think its the best beer ive ever had.

 

[deuc224]

Also add carapils or melanoidin to up the final gravity.

 

[mtom1991]

Dude, if you want to try and work up this recipe im all in. Ive tried one recipe(all grain) i thought it would be and it was nowhere close to it. Since then ive been reading up on it and have come across wheat, pils, chocolate, melanoidin with wlp320 yeast to not have the banana most hefes have. Im down for this journey as i think its the best beer ive ever had.

from what Iv read it’s should be minimum 50% Wheat grains and 30% Munich grains but that’s for the traditional Dunkle style.
I imagine the Erdinger version been a commercial version it differs from the traditional a fair bit.

what was the recipe you tried ?

 

[deuc224]

Oh god it was:

5.8 lbs wheat
3.3 lbs munich
8 oz carafa 2
8 oz caramel 40
8 oz caramel 120
2 oz roasted barley

This made a type of Guinness beer vs erdinger, thats why im going with a clone someone did on here that said it was pretty close which is:

4.5 lbs pils
4.5 wheat
6 oz chocolate
1 lb melanoidin.

If i could muster up the courage to do a decoction i would leave out the melanoidin but ill try this one first. Also wlp320 is the least banana-y yeast that is still a hefe yeast, tried with wlp 300 and fermented at 61-62 and still had that banana aroma.

 

[mtom1991]

What temp did you mash at ?

 

[monkeymath]

Do not use WB-06 for Hefeweizen. It's not at all appropriate, no matter what the packaging says.

From what I've read, the yeast cannot be harvested from the bottle. The flavour of Erdinger seems different from that procuded by the classic homebrew strains - I find it quite fruity and tart, with less banana. It's not favourite.

Legally, Weißbier must contain at least 50% wheat malt. But there's no reason to feel bound by that.

 

[deuc224]

What temp did you mash at ?

154F

 

[mtom1991]

Do not use WB-06 for Hefeweizen. It's not at all appropriate, no matter what the packaging says.

From what I've read, the yeast cannot be harvested from the bottle. The flavour of Erdinger seems different from that procuded by the classic homebrew strains - I find it quite fruity and tart, with less banana. It's not favourite.

Legally, Weißbier must contain at least 50% wheat malt. But there's no reason to feel bound by that.

would you agree with deuc224 that WLP320 would be the most appropriate?

 

[monkeymath]

would you agree with deuc224 that WLP320 would be the most appropriate?

I've never tried that yeast (and based on the descriptions I'm unlikely to do so in the future). Couldn't find too much info about it, but I think Erdinger is quite fruity (feel free to disagree), and I'm not sure if WLP320 brings that to the table?
Haven't had one in a while, though, so maybe I'm just not the right person to ask.

My mum loves Erdinger Dunkel, by the way. The only beer she ever drinks.

 

[deuc224]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/erdinger-dunkelweisen-clone.146651/
^^^^ this is what ive read so far on it. I was thinking of WLP 380 but erdinger dunkel doesnt have much clove taste either. WLP 300 is described as having suppressed banana and clove at 62F fermentation, i did it at 61-62 on glycol and still had some banana that has faded a bit over time but still hints are there. That is why wlp 320 is my next one to try even though its an american hefe yeast.

 

[mtom1991]

Changing yeast to WLP320 resulted in me having the opposite problem (to WB-06) in regards to the FG which was then too high but increasing the batch size slightly brought that down.

So after playing about with BrewerFriend and and doing abit more reading Iv come up with the following:

20L Batch Partial Mash

Yeast - WLP320
Hops - Hallertau Mittlefruh (32g 60 min boil)

this gives 10.3 IBU, right at the bottom end of the style guide range 10-18 IBU so should be little hop influence.

Base Extract:
1.4kg Wheat DME
0.9kg Munich DME

Grains:
0.18kg Weyermann ChocWheat (4.8%)
0.3kg Weyermann CaraWheat (7.9%)
0.5kg Weyermann Dark Wheat
0.5kg Weyermann Munich II Dark

this bring be out at:
37% Munich Malt (recommended min 30%)
63 % Wheat Malt (recommended min 50%)

OG 1.051 (Style 1.044 - 1.056)
FG 1.013 (Style 1.010 - 1.014)
ABV 5%

Mash @ 68 C
Ferment @ 19-20 C (recommended 18-21)

Iv picked out Dark Wheat and Munich II to tailor the flavour on top of the DME base (that’s my theory anyway), if I had an all grain setup I’d use these in place of the DME in full amounts.

The ChocWheat and CaraWheat Iv picked to get the Roasted/Choclate/Caramel flavours that I think come through in the original. There is a little subtle hint of dark fruit in the original not sure if that will come through with these grains but hopefully the caramel flavour will.

Thoughts/Suggestions ?

Bottling my last brew in a week so looking to get this one done in the next 2 weeks.

 

[deuc224]

I know erdinger says the FG is lower but if you notice it has a full body and sweeter so having a highish finishing graavity wont be too bad.

 

[deuc224]

Lets keep this alive ladies and gentlemen. We need to conquer this one.

 

[mtom1991]

Lets keep this alive ladies and gentlemen. We need to conquer this one.

Ingredients are ordered and brew scheduled in the next week

 

[deuc224]

Im gonna start growing yeast today on the wlp 320 to get it ready for Wednesday. I took the day off to watch godzilla so ill brew early and try the recipe i posted earlier and let you know how it comes out. I bought a case of erdinger dunkles and i do taste more carafa 2 than chocolate malt i must admit.

 

[deuc224]

Also I dont wanna hear anything about taking the day off for godzilla lol, I need to take time off and what better reason than a good movie lol.

 

[mtom1991]

WLP320 starter is on and in the Ferm Fridge at 21*C ready for brewing tomorrow night. Not the best date on the yeast (18/04) so hopefully a little extra time will do it good.

First time using liquid yeast and doing a starter. Should I leave it stirring right upto using it or should it have a rest period before been added for fermentation ?

 

[madscientist451]

Lets keep this alive ladies and gentlemen. We need to conquer this one.

I think its been done:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/erdinger-dunkelweisen-clone.146651/

 

[mtom1991]

Brewed last night only slight change was reduced the Chocolate Wheat down to 150g.

Cocked it up at the final hurdle though I think.

Didn’t get the wort cooled low enough before pitching. Yeast went in at 25*C was too late as the wort was already siphoned into the Carboy.

It did cool fairly quick once it went into the Ferm Fridge though, see how it turns out in 2 weeks. Was slightly over the planned OG aswel it came out at 1.058.

 

[mtom1991]

invested in some glasses and bottles of the original aswel so will be able to see what it’s like side by side

 

[deuc224]

Ill run my batch this weekend as well. Ill run up some wlp 320 and multiply it out and run my test batch as well. Will have to hit the up the $pecs for some erdinger to compare it to.

Mine is gonna be the :

4 lbs pils
4 lbs wheat
6 oz chocolate
1 lb melanoidin

Leaving out the munich and subbing the melanoidin to give the fake decoction a try.

 

[mtom1991]

Was worried about the fermentation after pitching the yeast too hot, especially as there was some serious smell of banana throughout fermentation. However seem to have dodged the bullet dosnt seem to have any off tastes and hit 1.016 final gravity.

Bottling this weekend but won’t get to have a proper taste once it’s conditioned as I’m also due to go away for work for 7 weeks

 

[mtom1991]

 

[deuc224]

Looks the part, im getting mine done his weekend after the NEIPA comes out the fermenter.

 

[deuc224]

Finally getting around to this one tomorrow night, i have to conquer this beer. Any news on those who have done it?

 

[mtom1991]

Finally getting around to this one tomorrow night, i have to conquer this beer. Any news on those who have done it?

I havnt tried it yet still working away, but the feedback Iv had from my dad is that it’s spot on for an Erdinger dunkel a hint more chocolate’y could maybe dial that back abit on the next batch as will definitely be brewing it again.

 

[deuc224]

My grains are grinded and yeast grown and water fixed for the brewday. Im going all in tomorrow and i pray this is the one, I would love to get close to the famous erdinger, it really is my favorite beer ive tried to date. Wish me luck yall.

 

[deuc224]

Fermentation seems to be done so ill give it a couple days at higher temp for the yeast to finish up the D. Ill put it on carbonation for 10 days to condition like i do with the other hefe and ill try it. So 12 days from now is the day! Im excited!

 

[deuc224]

Got around last night to kegging this up and placing it on carbonation and will let it condition for 10 days, keeping my fingers crossed for this one.

 

[deuc224]

Tried the dunkel and its only about 60% there, missing the sweetness and breadiness of the original. This one is closer than ive been before so ill keep trying it until i get it but this isnt it, the chocolate malt is spot on with the flavor instead of the carafa 2 i used, maybe some caramel malt 120 would give it a little help. Onward with the journey.

 

[mtom1991]

Tried the dunkel and its only about 60% there, missing the sweetness and breadiness of the original. This one is closer than ive been before so ill keep trying it until i get it but this isnt it, the chocolate malt is spot on with the flavor instead of the carafa 2 i used, maybe some caramel malt 120 would give it a little help. Onward with the journey.

I have tried mine after it’s had 8 weeks bottle conditioning and it seems pretty good. I have ordered some Erdinger to try it side by side (drank all the ones I ordered when I brewed it )

 

[mtom1991]

Had chance for my first proper sample and think it is close.

There’s a hint of a flavour that I can’t put my finger on but I suspect this was from the initial fermentation temp f**k up, it’s not unpleasant though.

Will be brewing this again at some point this year but substituting the Malt Extract out as I now have the equipment for All Grain.

 

[deuc224]

Mtom, at day 10 the beer was really really good. But its off of erdinger a bit. I will brew this with a few mods next time and post them up, im definitely gonna kick this keg soon lol.

 

[mtom1991]

Mtom, at day 10 the beer was really really good. But its off of erdinger a bit. I will brew this with a few mods next time and post them up, im definitely gonna kick this keg soon lol.

What changes are you going to make next time ?

Im going to start looking at converting my recipe to all grain soon, but got a few beers planned before i do the Dunkel again

 

[deuc224]

What changes are you going to make next time ?

Im going to start looking at converting my recipe to all grain soon, but got a few beers planned before i do the Dunkel again

Getting back to this, im gonna use some dark wheat I have and some caramel 120, maybe mash at higher temps to give it some more body. Im not giving up on this one just yet lol.

 

[mashpaddled]

Not an expert on this beer but I would be surprised if American malts are used in the recipe. It is probable that they are using German malts in this beer. I would guess the recipe to be pilsner, wheat, munich, one of the caramunich and a little carafa for color. You also need more wheat. Carafa in small amounts will add fruit flavors along with caramunich. Munich and more wheat will help with the breadiness you seem to lack.

 

[deuc224]

Not an expert on this beer but I would be surprised if American malts are used in the recipe. It is probable that they are using German malts in this beer. I would guess the recipe to be pilsner, wheat, munich, one of the caramunich and a little carafa for color. You also need more wheat. Carafa in small amounts will add fruit flavors along with caramunich. Munich and more wheat will help with the breadiness you seem to lack.

After all this time , its time for this to be conquered. Im subbing out the pils for munich. Going to be:

4 lbs munich
4 lbs Wheat
1 lb melanoidin
5 oz chocolate

Mashed at 154 and using wlp 320 or 380 yeast. Havent decided yet but ill do it this weekend cuz erdinger dunkel is impossible to find now.

 

[HM-2]

Use a different yeast to lower attenuation?
WB-06 is 86-90% attenuation. Something like Lallemand Munich Classic is more like 75% and will land you right in the middle of the target FG.

-Edit

Okay just saw the date on the OP...ignore me

 

[AlexKay]

I don't think it's traditional, but I've had some good luck with Xweizens (hefeweizen, dunkelweizen, roggenbier, weizenbock, roggenbock) using a mixture of malted and unmalted wheat (or rye). My last dunkelweizen was ~40% wheat malt, ~20% pils, ~20% Munich, ~10% wheat flakes, and the rest Carafa and chocolate.