Equalizing Pump Flow

[Elky]

I’ve brewed a couple times now on my 2 vessel system (K-RIMS) and I’m really struggling to equalize the flow rates between my two pumps. Both pumps are Riptides, the mash tun has an Autosparge on the inlet that frankly I’m not loving. I can get the pumps pretty close in flow where the levels look like they’re not changing, but I have to babysit it and check every few minutes otherwise one of the kettles starts to drain faster than the other. Ended up partially dry firing my boil coil over the weekend, but luckily it still works fine.

Any pointers on best practices for equalizing flow rates?

 

[Smellyglove]

I’ve brewed a couple times now on my 2 vessel system (K-RIMS) and I’m really struggling to equalize the flow rates between my two pumps. Both pumps are Riptides, the mash tun has an Autosparge on the inlet that frankly I’m not loving. I can get the pumps pretty close in flow where the levels look like they’re not changing, but I have to babysit it and check every few minutes otherwise one of the kettles starts to drain faster than the other. Ended up partially dry firing my boil coil over the weekend, but luckily it still works fine.

Any pointers on best practices for equalizing flow rates?

When do you use the two pumps in the process? For sparging? or? How's your setup?

 

[Elky]

When do you use the two pumps in the process? For sparging? or? How's your setup?

It’s a kettle RIMS so it’s a full volume mash split between the MLT and BK and the two pumps recirculating the brewing liquor. It’s like a single tier breweasy system with an additional pump instead of a gravity feed

 

[Smellyglove]

It’s a kettle RIMS so it’s a full volume mash split between the MLT and BK and the two pumps recirculating the brewing liquor. It’s like a single tier breweasy system with an additional pump instead of a gravity feed

Could you pls post a pic?

 

[Elky]

Could you pls post a pic?

Here you go!

 

[eric19312]

I don't think you should equalize the flow rates. Set the pump that returns the wort from the BK to the MLT at twice the flow rate of the other pump. Then let the Autosparge do its thing to keep the volumes balanced.

 

[Smellyglove]

Here you go!

Right! Now I'm with you. I don't see why there would be a big difference if the hydrostatic pressure in both would be the same (but I don't know much, someone pls enlighten me), and they are equally open. But I know that flow will be potentially greater the further into the mash you come, but that would only count for the one pump doing the job from the MT.Meaning that I guess the BK gets filled up more than your initial setpoint over time.

My first thought would be to get a level-sensor in the BK, which would start/stop the pump at a given level, leaving the pump in the MT as it is, just letting that MT pump do it's own thing and regulate in the BK.

I had a 3V setup some years ago and had to install a level sensor in the MT which I used during sparging since when I found a good flow of sparge water that would change when the water level in the HLT dropped due to less pressure. The level sensor in the MT triggered the pump in the HLT.

 

[Smellyglove]

I don't think you should equalize the flow rates. Set the pump that returns the wort from the BK to the MLT at twice the flow rate of the other pump. Then let the Autosparge do its thing to keep the volumes balanced.

If the autosparge is like it was a few years ago, it can't hold the pressure and would leak.

 

[Elky]

If the autosparge is like it was a few years ago, it can't hold the pressure and would leak.

That's exactly the issue, it leaks by like a siv. I got the system from High Gravity and the intent is that the autosparge regulates the BK to MT flow so you should only need to regulate the MT to BK but that appears to be fantasy

 

[Smellyglove]

That's exactly the issue, it leaks by like a siv. I got the system from High Gravity and the intent is that the autosparge regulates the BK to MT flow so you should only need to regulate the MT to BK but that appears to be fantasy

Then it's like before. I got rid of it the second I realized this and swapped it for a float-switch which triggered the pump. Gravity feeding is OK, pump feeding, not so much, that's where the design lacks, you can't use it with high pressure.

 

[augiedoggy]

I also used a float switch setup for a while (sparging) but it stuck a couple times from floating grain so I nixed the whole thing.

 

[postalbunny]

I can't believe the auto sparge leaks... can't find any standard stainless valves to create our own. That looked like a really elegant solution to the problem of equalizing flow. The only other alternative is to setup a float switch.

So far i've just been eyeballing it. If the flow on your sparge is a little high it doesn't matter much; the clear sparge water stays on "top" of the grain bed and the wort is drained away... it shouldn't be mixing and diluting.

 

[Elky]

I can't believe the auto sparge leaks... can't find any standard stainless valves to create our own. That looked like a really elegant solution to the problem of equalizing flow. The only other alternative is to setup a float switch.

So far i've just been eyeballing it. If the flow on your sparge is a little high it doesn't matter much; the clear sparge water stays on "top" of the grain bed and the wort is drained away... it shouldn't be mixing and diluting.

My system is a no-sparge. The mash is constantly recirculated between the mash Tun with the temp probe on the outlet and the boil kettle where the heating element is, hence Kettle-RIMS. In this case equalizing the flow is pretty important or else you end up with a dry/thick mash or a dry kettle/element over the course of the mash

 

[augiedoggy]

I can't believe the auto sparge leaks... can't find any standard stainless valves to create our own. That looked like a really elegant solution to the problem of equalizing flow. The only other alternative is to setup a float switch.

So far i've just been eyeballing it. If the flow on your sparge is a little high it doesn't matter much; the clear sparge water stays on "top" of the grain bed and the wort is drained away... it shouldn't be mixing and diluting.

the last time I looked, there were stainless autosparge type valves on aliexpress, fairly cheap too.
I found since I use the pwm control on my dc pumps I can dial in my flow rates fairly easily so if anything the sparge pump pumps ever so slightly faster because like you said more water on top doesnt hurt.

 

[postalbunny]

the last time I looked, there were stainless autosparge type valves on aliexpress, fairly cheap too.
I found since I use the pwm control on my dc pumps I can dial in my flow rates fairly easily so if anything the sparge pump pumps ever so slightly faster because like you said more water on top doesnt hurt.

Hm... i'll have to go check, i had always pondered using a float auto sparge but didn't want to mess with the expense of the blichman, couldn't find any ss versions on ebay/mccaster. Didn't think to try ali... will give that a shot. Or not,i guess if they problematically leak then it's not worth the effort.

 

[day_trippr]

Jeeze, I've been using the Blichmann autosparge valve for a few years now and swear by it. It turned fly sparging into a total set-and-forget deal, I leave the sparge pump wide open and control everything from the boil pump. And I've never seen it leak wort - if it even drips I've never noticed it...

Cheers!

 

[LeeH]

Can somebody link up one from Ali? No results from a sparge search.

 

[Elky]

Jeeze, I've been using the Blichmann autosparge valve for a few years now and swear by it. It turned fly sparging into a total set-and-forget deal, I leave the sparge pump wide open and control everything from the boil pump. And I've never seen it leak wort - if it even drips I've never noticed it...

Cheers!

What kind of pump are you using?

 

[day_trippr]

A pair of March 815PLs...

Cheers!

 

[BrunDog]

The AS should be able to hold pump pressure. It would be useless without.

I could recommend several other solutions but they are all electronic. For a while I used capacitive liquid level switches on the sight glass to serve as an electronic AS. That would take a bunch of wiring and modified sight glass.

 

[Genuine]

I'm running a similiar system however I gravity drain the mash into the kettle and use one pump to bring it to the top of the mash tun.

I usually keep 4 gallons in my kettle and in about 5 minutes and slight adjustments, I can equalize the flow well. I check it every once in a while. Yesterday I didn't pay attention to my flow rate and ended up with way more in the mash and it started to compact it and reducing flow back to the kettle. That has been the only downfall of the 10 gallon HD Cooler's so far that I've noticed.

 

[swimIan]

I do 2 vessel no sparge with 2 pumps similiar to KRIMS but 2 pumps. My auto sparge has no problem equalizing flow between the vessels. I set it up on slow and then leave it. The autosparge sprays a little bit but the manual says to choke the BK pump down until the spray stops. This is an optional step part that I ignore because the float system would still prevent too much liquid passing into the MLT. How far open up the valve on the MLT pump drives my recirculation rate and the autosparge adjusts the BK pump on its own.

 

[eric19312]

Because of this thread I ran two vessel no sparge yesterday. Autosparge had no issue handling pump feed using center inlet chugger. Kept flow at about 2 GPM from mash tun to kettle held temps well. Sadly took significant efficiency hit and going to need to fine tune this to see if it really saves time vs three vessel. Yesterday it did not as I increased mash time to two hours hoping to reach target gravity. I may have made error measuring grain.

But bottom line AS worked as advertised and my mash tun level was rock solid.

 

[Bobby_M]

It sounds like you are not setting up the auto sparge correctly. It shouldn't leak. Actually looking at the picture, it's obvious that you need the longer float rod. The AS works best with a float angle of 45 degrees or less.

That being said, I never understood this type of system. It's almost the same complexity and cleanup of a 3 vessel but about 25% less efficient. Single vessel is the way to go.

 

[Elky]

It sounds like you are not setting up the auto sparge correctly. It shouldn't leak. Actually looking at the picture, it's obvious that you need the longer float rod. The AS works best with a float angle of 45 degrees or less.

That being said, I never understood this type of system. It's almost the same complexity and cleanup of a 3 vessel but about 25% less efficient. Single vessel is the way to go.

Regarding the autosparge, I closed the valve manually and the wort was still flying by.

What do you mean by 25% less efficient? I've only brewed twice on it so far but I'm overshooting my estimated 75% brewhouse efficiency. I went with this setup for flexibility, I can easily do 10 gallon batches from 1.040 up or I can use just the BK with a bag if I want to do a 5 gallon single vessel. Then if i want to upgrade a a full 3 vessel down the line all I need is a kettle and HERMS coil. Also, I didn't want to deal with a massive 20+ gallon kettle for 10 gallon batches of larger beers. The 15s are plenty big for me.

Also thanks for all you do Bobby, your site has been a great resource for me while I've been putting this whole thing together.

 

[augiedoggy]

Regarding the autosparge, I closed the valve manually and the wort was still flying by.

What do you mean by 25% less efficient? I've only brewed twice on it so far but I'm overshooting my estimated 75% brewhouse efficiency. I went with this setup for flexibility, I can easily do 10 gallon batches from 1.040 up or I can use just the BK with a bag if I want to do a 5 gallon single vessel. Then if i want to upgrade a a full 3 vessel down the line all I need is a kettle and HERMS coil. Also, I didn't want to deal with a massive 20+ gallon kettle for 10 gallon batches of larger beers. The 15s are plenty big for me.

Also thanks for all you do Bobby, your site has been a great resource for me while I've been putting this whole thing together.

Just pointing out theres no need for 20g kettles for 10g batches with electric... I average 91% Eff with an electric 15 gallon 3 vessel /rims setup but thats certainly not 25% higher than the +75% your getting.. I do brew a mix of 6 and 11 gallon brews myself.

Also sounds like somethings wrong with the autosparge you have.

 

[augiedoggy]

Can somebody link up one from Ali? No results from a sparge search.

just search stainless float valve? thats all it is but they are usually made of brass for other purposes until blichmann found a good use for them in brewing.
they average $10 with shipping.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-2...b60d-48e8-a7ca-03f1c9d17f84&priceBeautifyAB=0

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Sil...b60d-48e8-a7ca-03f1c9d17f84&priceBeautifyAB=0

 

[Smellyglove]

Maybe some are leaking and others not? If they are not supposed to leak then maybe my old one was bad, and TS also has a bad one. Mine couldn't hold the pressure from one of those small solar pumps even.

If it's supposed to not leak under pressure, then maybe take it back and get a new one, as it would do it's job perfectly in this setup, if it wouldn't leak.

Only thing with the links posted above is that I can't see any simple way to attach a hose to them.

 

[Elky]

Just pointing out theres no need for 20g kettles for 10g batches with electric... I average 91% Eff with an electric 15 gallon 3 vessel /rims setup but thats certainly not 25% higher than the +75% your getting.. I do brew a mix of 6 and 11 gallon brews myself.

Also sounds like somethings wrong with the autosparge you have.

My reference to a 20 gallon kettle was in response to Bobby's comment about single vessel brewing.

 

[augiedoggy]

[QUOTE="Smellyglove, post: 8406695, member: 158903"

Only thing with the links posted above is that I can't see any simple way to attach a hose to them.[/QUOTE]




a barbed fitting would thread into or onto both ends.

 

[postalbunny]

hm... for $8, i think i'm going to order one of these and see how well it works. Would be nice to not have to watch the water level, if it can be easily adjusted and snap on with a camlock that'd be an easy win.

 

[ae4853t]

You need a grant. I use a grant to gravity feed from the math tunnel without pulling on the grain bed with a pump. In the grant is a double float. The bottom float shuts the pump off for 30 sec, the top float shuts the valve to the mach tun. I turn it on and walk away.

 

[postalbunny]

Don't get me wrong, a grant with a float switch is great but i'd like the $8 setup with a manual valve and float that doesn't require any wiring or anymore hardware. That is, if it doesn't leak like mentioned earlier.

I had toyed with a grant a while back to prevent compacting the grain bed, and even wired up a echo sensor from a car bumper with an arduino and relay to toggle the pumps on/off as the grant got full/empty as well as one watching the grainbed to maintain an inch of water. But I don't think those chugger pumps really like being toggled that much. Flipping them on/off every 15-30 seconds seemed like it was going to shorten the life.

I also used one of these jobs as a float switch, seemed to work easy enough if you don't mind cleaning it:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FLL6BVN/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[postalbunny]

[QUOTE="Smellyglove, post: 8406695, member: 158903"

Only thing with the links posted above is that I can't see any simple way to attach a hose to them.

a barbed fitting would thread into or onto both ends.[/QUOTE]

We'll see...i ordered one to see how hard it would be to setup. If i can pop a cam-lock fitting on one side and a silicon hose with a float on the other and it doesn't leak then it'll be worth keeping around imo.

 

[gnef]

As a dream solution (by far the most expensive), a dual head peristaltic pump is perfect for this kind of use. I've seen some brewers that found used ones, because new they are atrociously expensive.

The dual head means that the flow rates are perfectly in sync though, and they are self-priming!

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I did a batch today and observed the Blichmann autosparge valve through a few cycles where it was closed against max pump pressure and it really doesn't even drip when closed. I'm using the optional long arm on a 20 gallon kettle as the valve is as high as the kettle rim allowed and I'm betting the extra length provides the leverage to fully close the valve...

Cheers!