You guys would **** if you saw the carbon footprint here in Baghdad. Sorry to go OT but that's all I'm thinking about right now.
Environmental Impact of Homebrewing
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Bigsnake
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I don't think homebrewing is that bad in the first place. The two worst things we do would be using propane and wasting water. Saving water can be easily done by changing your cleaning methods and recirculating your chilling water.
I'd also say "yeast farts" are carbon neutral. The carbon positive stuff will use fossil fuels that are releasing carbon that has been trapped under the surface and not part of the current carban cycle.
$100,000 a day is noting compared to most chemical facilities and a lot of other manufacturing operations. They are the ones who can save lots of money from simple thinks. A failed steam trap can easily waste $8,000 a year of steam and many facilities have way more than 100 traps in operations. Every 10 feet of uninsulated steam pipe can waste $1000 a year in energy loss.
The $100,000 a day really does not mean anything unless you look at energy and water used per barrels brewed. Large scale operations are usually more efficient than small scale.
I'd also say "yeast farts" are carbon neutral. The carbon positive stuff will use fossil fuels that are releasing carbon that has been trapped under the surface and not part of the current carban cycle.
I read somewhere that a single AB brewery uses upwards of $100,000 in water and electricity for each day it is in operation. And that's not even considering the cost/ impact of growing and transporting the stuff that goes into a batch of beer.
Now, tell me why should I be concerned about using 8 gallons of water and $3.00 worth of propane for a batch of homebrew?
I dunno, but if we are all so worried about killing our planet by homebrewing, maybe we shouldn't be drinking beer.
$100,000 a day is noting compared to most chemical facilities and a lot of other manufacturing operations. They are the ones who can save lots of money from simple thinks. A failed steam trap can easily waste $8,000 a year of steam and many facilities have way more than 100 traps in operations. Every 10 feet of uninsulated steam pipe can waste $1000 a year in energy loss.
The $100,000 a day really does not mean anything unless you look at energy and water used per barrels brewed. Large scale operations are usually more efficient than small scale.
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Coprinus
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CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
Really? I mean really?
Provided you are going to drink the quantities of what you brew as commercial beer. You are having to ship 41 pounds of water weight per 5 gallon batch (2 cases). Shipping grain around for the same batch size is less than 25% of that. Think of it as beer tang.
My brewery is all electric so there is 99% efficiency in power transfer to the boil/mash (1% loss in system resistance).
All water used to cool the wort is reused to clean the system and then poured into the yard. returned to the local aquifers. Spent Grain is composted as well.
So in one purchase/shipment I have bought my beer and compost. Alone I have reduced the carbon burden of shipping the beer by more than 75%, factor in the burden of transporting the compost and the overall burden becomes smaller.
As for the case study.... I have a hard time digesting that (pun intended) with the half fact statements provided about waste water treatment. There are reasons why most municipalities use aerobic water treatment for the bulk of the process over anaerobic processes, and no it's not because it is cheaper but because it is more stable. Not to mention they completely missed the boat on the amount of time anaerobic processes take, they take much longer than aerobic (up to 4 weeks). Plus, they don't even mention what they do with their sludge.
Here's another thing to ponder, the amounts biosolid/sludge producing materials in the water 'wasted' of brewing is negligible. The bulk of them, though not much, is in the beer. Which you'll process first in your personal little bio-reactor.
I love how people wave a finger at methane and CO2 as eco-evil incarnate, but if we call it bio-gas it makes it okay. Even if you run biogas through a combustion system, CO2 is fairly inert so it's going to come out of that process as, hold your breath, CO2! Don't forget to add the additional 2 CO2 molecules per methane molecule.
Want a solution? PLANT MORE TREES.
Now I have read a few articles about a brewery using their fermentation tanks' co2 to feed algae tanks. Cool concept I thought, though the algae was used as a dietary supplement not fuel.
Reading that Zeri site again, it looks like the whole thing is set up as an elaborate way to deal with the spent grain, not so much the water. Selling compost would be a much cheaper and viable solution. Not to mention it's greener.
Provided you are going to drink the quantities of what you brew as commercial beer. You are having to ship 41 pounds of water weight per 5 gallon batch (2 cases). Shipping grain around for the same batch size is less than 25% of that. Think of it as beer tang.
My brewery is all electric so there is 99% efficiency in power transfer to the boil/mash (1% loss in system resistance).
All water used to cool the wort is reused to clean the system and then poured into the yard. returned to the local aquifers. Spent Grain is composted as well.
So in one purchase/shipment I have bought my beer and compost. Alone I have reduced the carbon burden of shipping the beer by more than 75%, factor in the burden of transporting the compost and the overall burden becomes smaller.
As for the case study.... I have a hard time digesting that (pun intended) with the half fact statements provided about waste water treatment. There are reasons why most municipalities use aerobic water treatment for the bulk of the process over anaerobic processes, and no it's not because it is cheaper but because it is more stable. Not to mention they completely missed the boat on the amount of time anaerobic processes take, they take much longer than aerobic (up to 4 weeks). Plus, they don't even mention what they do with their sludge.
Here's another thing to ponder, the amounts biosolid/sludge producing materials in the water 'wasted' of brewing is negligible. The bulk of them, though not much, is in the beer. Which you'll process first in your personal little bio-reactor.
I love how people wave a finger at methane and CO2 as eco-evil incarnate, but if we call it bio-gas it makes it okay. Even if you run biogas through a combustion system, CO2 is fairly inert so it's going to come out of that process as, hold your breath, CO2! Don't forget to add the additional 2 CO2 molecules per methane molecule.
Want a solution? PLANT MORE TREES.
Now I have read a few articles about a brewery using their fermentation tanks' co2 to feed algae tanks. Cool concept I thought, though the algae was used as a dietary supplement not fuel.
Reading that Zeri site again, it looks like the whole thing is set up as an elaborate way to deal with the spent grain, not so much the water. Selling compost would be a much cheaper and viable solution. Not to mention it's greener.
I've never quite understood the concerns about water usage or wasting water. Where I live, water falls from the sky. It's a renewable resource. Sewer systems and the treatment plants could not function without water entering the drains and diluting the waste. Treatment plants, both water and waste do consume power, so there is that aspect to consider, but our individual contribution is negligible. When you stay home and brew, you are not out cruising around doing whatever and burning fuel. Unless one lives in an arid region or where there are water shortages I just can't get overly excited about conserving water. I see vast quantities flowing down the Ohio river heading to the sea every day and as I said, more falls from the sky for free regularly around here.
IMO, it's much too late to do anything about global warming at this point anyway. We are doomed regardless. Yes, buy a bunch of those little spiral flourescent light bulbs if it will help you sleep better. Buy an ell electric car and ignore the coal fired power plant located about 100 miles away and all of the losses that occur along the way getting it to your little car. Brewing on such a small scale as we do, is extremely inefficient when compared to the big guys. It's simply an economy of scale and applies to almost anything of that nature. FWIW, I do try to conserve resources. I started composting long before it became stylish. I separate the recyclables from my trash and I do make an effort to conserve energy when and where I can. I'm not really that cynical, but from what I observe going on in the big picture, it looks a lot like we are screwed.
IMO, it's much too late to do anything about global warming at this point anyway. We are doomed regardless. Yes, buy a bunch of those little spiral flourescent light bulbs if it will help you sleep better. Buy an ell electric car and ignore the coal fired power plant located about 100 miles away and all of the losses that occur along the way getting it to your little car. Brewing on such a small scale as we do, is extremely inefficient when compared to the big guys. It's simply an economy of scale and applies to almost anything of that nature. FWIW, I do try to conserve resources. I started composting long before it became stylish. I separate the recyclables from my trash and I do make an effort to conserve energy when and where I can. I'm not really that cynical, but from what I observe going on in the big picture, it looks a lot like we are screwed.
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Coprinus
Active Member
CodeRage, thanks for the thorough and pointed analysis. It's a tricky thing, being truly green, but I think it's a goal worth attempting.
Your point about shipping grain instead of beer is an important one, as well as the clarification about CO2. I never even thought about global warming effects of yeast farts until I read through these posts.
Imagine if we tried to stop all the fermentation going on every minute in nature to "save the world". It would be disastrous.
I think the best steps I could take personally is to find a use for my spent grain and to adjust my cleaning technique in order to reduce the water I'm using.
Also I'm going to start wearing hemp clothes and become a fruititarian.
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
flyangler18
Well-Known Member
^^^^^^^^
THIS.
I've been maintaining a compost pile here for a while. Managing waste water can be challenging; collect it in a rain barrel or similar vessel to water the garden later.
CodeRage
Death by Magumba!
CodeRage, thanks for the thorough and pointed analysis. It's a tricky thing, being truly green, but I think it's a goal worth attempting.
Your point about shipping grain instead of beer is an important one, as well as the clarification about CO2. I never even thought about global warming effects of yeast farts until I read through these posts.
Imagine if we tried to stop all the fermentation going on every minute in nature to "save the world". It would be disastrous.
I think the best steps I could take personally is to find a use for my spent grain and to adjust my cleaning technique in order to reduce the water I'm using.
Also I'm going to start wearing hemp clothes and become a fruititarian.
Yeah, sorry for the half awake ranting. Was thoroughly frustrated with some home work at the time. The notion of fermentation is a large contributor to green house gases still rubs me a bit wrong though. The co2 problems stems from carbon that was locked into the ground long long ago. We're pumping it out and reintroducing it to the atmosphere. To really address the co2 problem you need to get it out of the air and into the ground and leave it there.
bernerbrau
Well-Known Member
1. Water and CO2 from the environment are absorbed by the barley plant and converted into complex carbohydrate chains.
2. Complex carbohydrate chains are converted to simple carbohydrates in the mash.
3. Simple carbohydrates are converted to alcohol and CO2 by yeast.
4. Alcohol is converted in our stomachs and livers (eventually) to water and CO2.
CO2 from fermentation does not contribute to greenhouse gases. Period.
2. Complex carbohydrate chains are converted to simple carbohydrates in the mash.
3. Simple carbohydrates are converted to alcohol and CO2 by yeast.
4. Alcohol is converted in our stomachs and livers (eventually) to water and CO2.
CO2 from fermentation does not contribute to greenhouse gases. Period.
alexdagrate
Well-Known Member
By homebrewing with local water instead of using diesel to transport the water, bottles, and packaging for commercial beer, I'd say homebrewing is a very good way to cut down on carbon emissions.
Re-using bottles or kegs is far more efficient than buying beer in used-once bottles and then recycling them or throwing them away.
I also grow my own hops and compost my grains.
Also, it seems more efficient to have hops sent to me from the Yakima valley (a couple hours away) rather than have those same hops sent to Milwaukee and have that beer shipped back to me.
azscoob
Brewpub coming soon!
Start of Rant:
I switched to CFL in every light in my house, drive a car that gets 40mpg, keep my AC at 80 in the summer here in az, maintain a garden to grow my own food, use my IC water in my garden as well as the spent grains, I do all of this not for the environment but for my wallet, it saves me money, but when I see our senators and congressmen jetting all over, going to and from DC, keep them the hell home in their offices! they can use video conferencing and the internet for most of their work.. and keep them more accountable to us! we all do our part to cut back on waste and polluting in our own way and for our own reasons, but when the people telling us we need to cut back, tighten our belts, and be more responsible are the ones I see wasting the most, it makes me SICK! almost makes me want to burn a pile of old tires in protest!
OK, Rant over.. I feel better now
I switched to CFL in every light in my house, drive a car that gets 40mpg, keep my AC at 80 in the summer here in az, maintain a garden to grow my own food, use my IC water in my garden as well as the spent grains, I do all of this not for the environment but for my wallet, it saves me money, but when I see our senators and congressmen jetting all over, going to and from DC, keep them the hell home in their offices! they can use video conferencing and the internet for most of their work.. and keep them more accountable to us! we all do our part to cut back on waste and polluting in our own way and for our own reasons, but when the people telling us we need to cut back, tighten our belts, and be more responsible are the ones I see wasting the most, it makes me SICK! almost makes me want to burn a pile of old tires in protest!
OK, Rant over.. I feel better now
Leave it to a Spartan to think about the environment. Go Green!
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Don't forget, every time you exhale, you're releasing CO2 and H2O into the atmosphere.
I heard on the radio the other day about a guy who blames 99% of "global climate change" on the fact we eat meat.
I personally don't give a rat's arse about any of this crap. There's too many of us. Fortunately, no one in the current generation in my extended family (AFAIK) has, or plans to have, any children. My family will literally end in the next 50 years.
Anyway, I do recycle some. I use my chiller water on the lawn. Not because I should, but because it saves me $$$. And that's all I care about.
I kinda hope the Maya were right.
I heard on the radio the other day about a guy who blames 99% of "global climate change" on the fact we eat meat.
I personally don't give a rat's arse about any of this crap. There's too many of us. Fortunately, no one in the current generation in my extended family (AFAIK) has, or plans to have, any children. My family will literally end in the next 50 years.
Anyway, I do recycle some. I use my chiller water on the lawn. Not because I should, but because it saves me $$$. And that's all I care about.
I kinda hope the Maya were right.
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what kind of goats do you have? My roommate's goats love my spent grain!
I have thought about this a bit. I am working on trying to reduce my footprint a bit with the hobby. I work in IT so electricity reduction is what I have been focusing on at work and has made me think about things a home.
Right now I only do extract brewing. So I started buying starsan so I do not have to rinse. I purchased a 12volt pump so i can recirculate my cooling water over a few blocks of ice. We have been upgrading all of our UPS units at work so I have acquired a good grip of batteries. I built a battery array to run my pump. It is overkill for my little pump but I built it with the idea of me building a two pump HERMS system in the future. The battery array will be getting a solar panel to keep the charge in the batteries.
When I do finally built my HERMS system it too will be electric. I have not figured out the amount of batteries and solar panel I would need for that yet but I was thinking I could figure out a way to make most of it solar. Maybe just plug the boil kettle into the house. I will be working on that project over the winter. Depends on how many batteries I can get my hands on.
I figure the least I could do is try!! Can't hurt to at least be aware of ways to be efficient.
Right now I only do extract brewing. So I started buying starsan so I do not have to rinse. I purchased a 12volt pump so i can recirculate my cooling water over a few blocks of ice. We have been upgrading all of our UPS units at work so I have acquired a good grip of batteries. I built a battery array to run my pump. It is overkill for my little pump but I built it with the idea of me building a two pump HERMS system in the future. The battery array will be getting a solar panel to keep the charge in the batteries.
When I do finally built my HERMS system it too will be electric. I have not figured out the amount of batteries and solar panel I would need for that yet but I was thinking I could figure out a way to make most of it solar. Maybe just plug the boil kettle into the house. I will be working on that project over the winter. Depends on how many batteries I can get my hands on.
I figure the least I could do is try!! Can't hurt to at least be aware of ways to be efficient.
Don't forget, every time you exhale, you're releasing CO2 and H2O into the atmosphere.
I heard on the radio the other day about a guy who blames 99% of "global climate change" on the fact we eat meat.
I personally don't give a rat's arse about any of this crap. There's too many of us. Fortunately, no one in the current generation in my extended family (AFAIK) has, or plans to have, any children. My family will literally end in the next 50 years.
Anyway, I do recycle some. I use my chiller water on the lawn. Not because I should, but because it saves me $$$. And that's all I care about.
I kinda hope the Maya were right.
Wow! There's someone else here who feels the same as I do. Rock on dude! I'm one of the last in my line also and you are absolutely right about there being too many of us. That is the root of the problem and the elephant in the room that everyone ignores. It's all due to overpopulation and sooner or later, nature will make a correction although it's beginning to look like we may beat her to the punch.
There is only kind of goat: Stupid.
Heineken
Well-Known Member
Rdwhahb...
zodeseeker
Active Member
mitch171
Well-Known Member
Actually I think they don't call it global warming anymore because it has been proven to not actually be the case. It is now called climate change. My dad was telling me about when he was younger the whole hype was that we were causing another ice age. The earth cycles and the overall temp changes. That is just what happens. I guess within the next few thousand years a pole change is supposed to happen. I am going to blame that on people reading books...
We think we have control, we don't. Be smart and not wasteful because that just makes sense.
As for wasting water I really can't wrap my head around that. Maybe that is because I get my water from a well and it doesn't have to be "treated." When I dump water on the lawn it seeps back into the well eventually. Not to mention the water isn't contaminated through the brewing process, at least mine isn't. I would drink any of the run off water with no worry about getting sick.
We think we have control, we don't. Be smart and not wasteful because that just makes sense.
As for wasting water I really can't wrap my head around that. Maybe that is because I get my water from a well and it doesn't have to be "treated." When I dump water on the lawn it seeps back into the well eventually. Not to mention the water isn't contaminated through the brewing process, at least mine isn't. I would drink any of the run off water with no worry about getting sick.
Heineken
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+1 on everything you said..
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you forgot about the two my roommate has: ornery and mean
seanybubbles
Well-Known Member
I think homebrewing is pretty green. If you want to talk about waste, think about all the beer cups used only once at the last baseball game you went to. Each beer you had you used one cup and then you threw it away. I've been using the same 5 cases of bottles for the last 2 years. I've made at least ten batches with these bottles. Sounds pretty environmentally friendly to me.
Those cups could be recycled if they wanted to. It would be nice to have someone sort them out and ship them to a grinder who could then sell the regrind back to a parts company who uses that material in filler applications.
I think brewing it pretty green. I don't conserve water, but I live in Michigan and everything that hits the ground ends up in the water table again. I *could* use that water to fill the washer, but I never think about it at brew time. I'm too busy concentrating on the brewing.
I'm as green as I can be when I brew because it saves me money. I'd like to move towards electric brewing because that would be a huge money saver based on cost of buying used tires to fire my HLT.
ThickHead
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The thing that I ALWAYS do FIRST when considering how I can reduce environmental impact, increase sustainability, and generally "grean-up" any endeavor in which I persue, I repeat in my head the following: "Local, Local, Local."
Softening the environmental impact of your brewing activity would certainly be best served by initially reducing your dependency on goods that are transported long distances. Additionally, increasing the efficiency of your equipment, recycling your waste and developing as much self-sufficiency as possible are the next steps. Being "green" is a journey, not a destination. I commend you for any efforts you make in reducing your personal impact on the environment.
I don't see this as a "Global Warming" issue, its an issue of conservation.
We all do what we can to conserve resources, and it helps with being frugal, as it applies directly to the bottom line and our walets!
I drive a car that gets 54mpg and no it's not a hybrid, I live frugaly in every aspect I can, and I can say it helps being still single and not having kids.
But to say we are "Saving the planet" .... well that just ain't happening. Sorry, Al Gore... even though he was given a Nobel Prize, is a phoney! He buy's carbon offsetts so he can live his life as the LIFE OF RILEY! That is not saving the plannet!
If all these tree huggers realy tried to save the plannet and were frugal in their consumption, the GLOBAL economy would shrink by 10 fold! And the overproduction and subsequent job losses would be catostrophic to the economies of the world.
The World is Over populated, and it's an exponential equasion that defines the consumption needed to support this ever increasing population. Without a GLOBAL Catastrophy that wipes out 1/2 of the current population, there is no turning back the clock in saving the world. It just will not happen. We will consume it and we will force our ansesstors to look for a new one in time.
I say brew to your hearts content and live life with frugality in mind, but don't claim you are saveing anyone, just that you are doing what you feel is your part to stem the tide.
Cheers and drink up.
We all do what we can to conserve resources, and it helps with being frugal, as it applies directly to the bottom line and our walets!
I drive a car that gets 54mpg and no it's not a hybrid, I live frugaly in every aspect I can, and I can say it helps being still single and not having kids.
But to say we are "Saving the planet" .... well that just ain't happening. Sorry, Al Gore... even though he was given a Nobel Prize, is a phoney! He buy's carbon offsetts so he can live his life as the LIFE OF RILEY! That is not saving the plannet!
If all these tree huggers realy tried to save the plannet and were frugal in their consumption, the GLOBAL economy would shrink by 10 fold! And the overproduction and subsequent job losses would be catostrophic to the economies of the world.
The World is Over populated, and it's an exponential equasion that defines the consumption needed to support this ever increasing population. Without a GLOBAL Catastrophy that wipes out 1/2 of the current population, there is no turning back the clock in saving the world. It just will not happen. We will consume it and we will force our ansesstors to look for a new one in time.
I say brew to your hearts content and live life with frugality in mind, but don't claim you are saveing anyone, just that you are doing what you feel is your part to stem the tide.
Cheers and drink up.
ThickHead
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But what happens to that exponential equasion when more people practice similar habits to your own? It changes. We have the potential to have a tremendous impact, but the momentum that has been gathering over time appears to many to be insurmountable. I don't believe it is. We will live and learn or destroy ourselves in the process. But to think that we can do nothing but watch is a defeatest attitude.
One day the words "environmental impact" will extend beyond the rivers, the oceans, the fields, the horizon, the air, the o-zone, the atmosphere, near earth orbit, etc. The benefit from lessons learned today about our habits truly do matter, maybe not as much today as in the future. "Tree huggers" have their usefulness, if for nothing else than to be the opposite extreme.
I'm trying to convert my equipment to run on crushed baby seals. If you are really concerned, just send me all your equipment and I'll print and send you a whole bunch of "carbon credits".
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