Elevated pH for Brewing with Roasted Grains Confirmed Years Ago

[mabrungard]

It surprised me today when I read in my local newspaper that the Dutch discovered that alkalyzing their cocoa made it much better and that discovery occurred in the 1800's. That confirms what I've been saying for years, that brewing darker styles at slightly higher pH does result in smoother, milder, and less astringent roast flavors in beer.

The Dutch found that alkalyzing their cocoa to a pH between 7 and 8 results in darker color and smoother and milder chocolate flavor. Since we roast malt and grain for the same reasons in brewing as they do for chocolate and coffee, seeing that this process has been conducted for well over a hundred years helps add to the validity that I've espoused for brewing darker styles.

I wrote a bit more on the Bru'n Water facebook page.

 

[Hermit]

You've never heard of Dutch, or Dutched, chocolate before now? REALLY? I guess you youngsters just aren't educated by the ads us older folks used to see regularly on our televisions.

 

[mabrungard]

Yes, I'd heard of Dutch Chocolate before. Did you know the process and chemistry that that term represents before I mentioned it?

 

[ajdelange]

It surprised me today when I read in my local newspaper that the Dutch discovered that alkalyzing their cocoa made it much better and that discovery occurred in the 1800's. That confirms what I've been saying for years, that brewing darker styles at slightly higher pH does result in smoother, milder, and less astringent roast flavors in beer.

Surely you know more of the scientific method than to say something like this. Certainly you realize that correlation does not imply causation. You do have a hypothesis that the mechanism that mellows whatever it is in chocolate that gets neutralized is the same mechanism that mellows whatever it is in dark malt that gets mellower at higher pH but you do not have any evidence that this is the case - only evidence that it may be the case. It is now up to you to determine what that mechanism is and when you have done that you can legitimately state that there is a link. Until you do you have nothing more than an interesting observation.

The Dutch found that alkalyzing their cocoa to a pH between 7 and 8 results in darker color and smoother and milder chocolate flavor. Since we roast malt and grain for the same reasons in brewing as they do for chocolate and coffee, seeing that this process has been conducted for well over a hundred years helps add to the validity that I've espoused for brewing darker styles.

Does coffee taste better at higher pH too? How about chestnuts? And peanuts? And caramel? Do we sprinkle NaHCO3 over our creme brulee? (Probably not as production of 5 hydroxymethyl furfural (caramel flavor) is enchanced at low pH.)
[/QUOTE]

 

[Hermit]

Yes, I'd heard of Dutch Chocolate before. Did you know the process and chemistry that that term represents before I mentioned it?

I apologize for the snarkyness of my post, but yes I did. Comparatively recent though I guess. When mentions that dark chocolate may have health benefits I started researching what exactly dark chocolate meant. As a result I got an education on chocolate. Funny how little we know about some of the stuff we eat though.

I agree with AJ. There may or may not be a correlation. Beer is a relatively tightly controlled pH range compared to chocolate and the adjustment is well under what would be used for Dutching (sometimes referred to as 'Dutched') chocolate. With beer the only objectionable astringency I get is from black malts and moving to wheat or dehusked barley solves that. Also, my darks tend to be carbonated at a lower rate. I just don't see a need to try and get too fine with the pH in the brew process for a home brewer. It is more like a game of horse shoes usually anyhow. If I get between 5.4 and 5.6 I'm pretty happy on brew day and I get good conversion with satisfactory beer.

 

[ajdelange]

For the record I never noticed in any stout that I brewed the nastiness that normal mash pH is supposed to bring to such beers but taste perception is very much an individual thing. It's also worth noting, yet again, the incredible power of confirmation bias.

I know nothing about chocolate chemistry, of course, but am very curious as to what it is in it that is effected by pH. In nibs (from which, as I understand it) the butter has been removed I would first think it is the theobromine as that contributes the bitterness (and basic chocolate flavor):

Now I don't know enough chemistry to be able to see how this can be neutralized. Where is one going to get any H+ ions off it? There is one on the Nitrogen at the 9 position and another on the carbon at 4 so perhaps it's one of those. And there are 6 more hydrogens on the two methyl groups (3 and 7) but I'm of the impression that methyl hydrogens are pretty tightly bound. But I have seen it mentioned that theobromine is amphoteric (it is clearly basic - it is, after all, an alkaloid). Note that caffein is identical except for another methyl group on the Nitrogen at 5 so you might expect the same effect by adding alkali to coffee. More questions than answers.

 

[Hermit]

For the record I never noticed in any stout that I brewed the nastiness that normal mash pH is supposed to bring to such beers but taste perception is very much an individual thing. It's also worth noting, yet again, the incredible power of confirmation bias.

Now that you mention it, I can't say for sure if I moved to the debittered and/or dark wheat before I learned to control mash pH. Not sure I'd risk a batch and go back and try at this point as I'm happy with my current recipes.

 

[bierhaus15]

Aside, a few years ago at WBC, Ballast Point did a presentation where they said the alkalinity and sodium content of the brewing water had an impact on dark beer (porter) flavor; essentially higher ALK and Na content resulted in smoother, more chocolaty, and less roasty flavor. This was for beers brewed of the same mash/final pH (around 5.4). While this is no surprise, I would think the water ion concentrations would have more effect on smoothness/ect than mash pH alone, when using roasted malts.

Moreover, from my basic understanding of chocolate production, the crushed and de-husked nibs are washed in a potassium carbonate solution before roasting. It would be interesting to see what happens to malt when treated in the same way.

 

[Hermit]

Aside, a few years ago at WBC, Ballast Point did a presentation where they said the alkalinity and sodium content of the brewing water had an impact on dark beer (porter) flavor; essentially higher ALK and Na content resulted in smoother, more chocolaty, and less roasty flavor. This was for beers brewed of the same mash/final pH (around 5.4). While this is no surprise, I would think the water ion concentrations would have more effect on smoothness/ect than mash pH alone, when using roasted malts.

Sodium I would understand but choose not to go that route.
I'm not a whiz at water chemistry but are you saying that you raise the alkalinity and then neutralize it to get to a mash pH of around 5.4? If I remember this correctly something like calcium carbonate is alkaline but doesn't really affect pH that much because it doesn't dissolve well in the mash? Personally though, if I want less roast and more chocolate flavors I go with a lighter malt.

Moreover, from my basic understanding of chocolate production, the crushed and de-husked nibs are washed in a potassium carbonate solution before roasting. It would be interesting to see what happens to malt when treated in the same way.

One in four sites I looked at mention this process. Difference between "Dutched" and the rest?

 

[ajdelange]

Aside, a few years ago at WBC, Ballast Point did a presentation where they said the alkalinity and sodium content of the brewing water had an impact on dark beer (porter) flavor; essentially higher ALK and Na content resulted in smoother, more chocolaty, and less roasty flavor. This was for beers brewed of the same mash/final pH (around 5.4).

I don't get this. Evidently the bicarbonate is removed before or during mashing so that the grains are not subject either to the higher pH or the bicarbonate responsible for this.

While this is no surprise, I would think the water ion concentrations would have more effect on smoothness/ect than mash pH alone, when using roasted malts.

Think of pH as a control. When it is low protons are pushed onto malt components. When it is high they are pulled off. This charge redistribution can have profound effects from enhancing malt flavors when low (too much so for roast malts) to changing the digestibility of corn (nixtalization).

Moreover, from my basic understanding of chocolate production, the crushed and de-husked nibs are washed in a potassium carbonate solution before roasting. It would be interesting to see what happens to malt when treated in the same way.

Note that while calcium carbonate and potassium carbonate are both alkaline, potassium carbonate is much more soluble.

 

[bierhaus15]

I though about this for a minute and found my notes from the presentation; they started with de-ionized water and added CaOH2 with other salts for the tests. The lower alkalinity was attested to be harsher than that with higher amounts. Mash pH was nearly the same. Take that for what it is worth...

Per the cocoa bit, dutch processed is with the alkaline solution. The process can also be used on the finished cocoa powder and liquid.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I though about this for a minute and found my notes from the presentation; they started with de-ionized water and added CaOH2 with other salts for the tests. The lower alkalinity was attested to be harsher than that with higher amounts. Mash pH was nearly the same. Take that for what it is worth...

I'm trying to take it for what it's worth, but I'm failing to see how two otherwise identical stouts, one brewed in high alkalinity water, and one brewed in low alkalinity water, can both mash at nearly the same pH.

 

[Hermit]

I'm trying to take it for what it's worth, but I'm failing to see how two otherwise identical stouts, one brewed in high alkalinity water, and one brewed in low alkalinity water, can both mash at nearly the same pH.

The more I think about this the more I realize what isn't said. There is a hand full of people that I trust when it comes to 'palate'. I'd need a lot more information on the process used AND the people that were used to judge this.

 

[Vale71]

I'm trying to take it for what it's worth, but I'm failing to see how two otherwise identical stouts, one brewed in high alkalinity water, and one brewed in low alkalinity water, can both mash at nearly the same pH.

Buffering. With lots of roasted malts you have tons of buffering capacity.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Buffering. With lots of roasted malts you have tons of buffering capacity.

A whopping Kg. of 500-600L black malt will only yield roughly about 60 mEq of acidity. 160 ppm of alkalinity in 5 gallons of mash water (the equivalent of a pinch less than 5.1 grams of a very weak base called baking soda added to 5 gallons of DI water) would be sufficient to wipe out an entire Kg. worth of such a malts acidity. That to me does not appear to be tons of buffering capacity.

 

[rhys333]

I'll offer my 2 cents on the effects of elevated mash pH on darker beer styles. Particularly those with roasted grains. Empirical evidence only, of course.

I find that lower pH levels around 5.35 to 5.45ish produce a harsher beer, even on amberish styles like red ale with just 1-1.5% roasted barley inclusion. The roasted grain character seems sharper and tends to dominate. 5.5 or a little higher is the sweet spot for me. My porters with higher mash pH are smooth from the get-go, and the same is true for the stout I brewed recently. A few months ago I brewed the same red ale back-to-back. One for me and the other for family members. I deliberately mashed theirs at just over 5.5 and mine just under 5.4. Theirs was smooth and balanced while mine was not. At least not as smooth as I would have liked. I have repeated these results across quite a few batches.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'll offer my 2 cents on the effects of elevated mash pH on darker beer styles. Particularly those with roasted grains. Empirical evidence only, of course.

I find that lower pH levels around 5.35 to 5.45ish produce a harsher beer, even on amberish styles like red ale with just 1-1.5% roasted barley inclusion. The roasted grain character seems sharper and tends to dominate. 5.5 or a little higher is the sweet spot for me. My porters with higher mash pH are smooth from the get-go, and the same is true for the stout I brewed recently. A few months ago I brewed the same red ale back-to-back. One for me and the other for family members. I deliberately mashed theirs at just over 5.5 and mine just under 5.4. Theirs was smooth and balanced while mine was not. At least not as smooth as I would have liked. I have repeated these results across quite a few batches.

Good to know! How much baking soda (or other) do you typically find is necessary to be added in order to mash at between 5.5 and 5.6 pH for a given batch size?

 

[rhys333]

Good to know! How much baking soda (or other) do you typically find is necessary to be added in order to mash at between 5.5 and 5.6 pH for a given batch size?

Well, I just posted my results earlier today on a stout I brewed with low mineral water. I did this because I wanted to reduce the amount of baking soda required, which ended up being 1.0g in this case. I do need to check my notes at home before confirming for sure.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/mash-ph-with-stouts-porters.526566/

 

[stz]

I'm not sure if to dip a toe into what is clearly a potentially contentious issue, I might not be understanding what is being said .. but I thought it was common knowledge and has been my experience that dark beers are generally better brewed with water with a correct mash pH, everything in typical range really, which is usually achieved by me with the addition of some sodium carbonate or bicarbonate if needed?

 

[dmtaylor]

Good to know! How much baking soda (or other) do you typically find is necessary to be added in order to mash at between 5.5 and 5.6 pH for a given batch size?

It sure doesn't take much. I measure my baking soda in eighths of a teaspoon. Use a calculator and/or add just a tiny bit at a time until it hits the higher pH that you desire.

 

[rhys333]

Good to know! How much baking soda (or other) do you typically find is necessary to be added in order to mash at between 5.5 and 5.6 pH for a given batch size?

I just checked my notes and it was actually 1.2g baking soda in a 6 gallon batch. Also my pH was 5.49 in this case.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just checked my notes and it was actually 1.2g baking soda in a 6 gallon batch. Also my pH was 5.49 in this case.

Have you shared the recipe and your water analyticals and volumes anywhere on the forum?

 

[ajdelange]

I'm not sure if to dip a toe into what is clearly a potentially contentious issue, I might not be understanding what is being said .. but I thought it was common knowledge and has been my experience that dark beers are generally better brewed with water with a correct mash pH, everything in typical range really, which is usually achieved by me with the addition of some sodium carbonate or bicarbonate if needed?

The question is "What is the correct pH?" As pointed out in No. 10 moving the pH a couple of tenths can have pronounced effect on the flavors in the beer. The correct pH is the pH that gives you and your "customers" the flavors they prefer. There should be no contention. It should be recognized that some people prefer things one way and others another. The contention arises when the self proclaimed experts lapse into that all too human tendency to proselytize. As I am human I have to recognize that if I'm not careful I'll do that too (and doubtless have done).

 

[rhys333]

Have you shared the recipe and your water analyticals and volumes anywhere on the forum?

Not yet, but here it is. Weights in metric:

OATMEAL STOUT 23L / 6 gal
72.5% 4.1kg 2 Row
10% 0.565kg C80
7.5% 0.42kg Rolled oats
5% 0.28kg Black Patent
5% 0.28kg Chocolate

Mashed in 3.25 US gal RO, then sparged in same volume. Added:
- 0.6g each gypsum and Epsom to both mash and sparge;
- 1.2g baking soda to mash only;
- 0.26ml lactic acid to sparge only;
- 5g CaCl2 to kettle only.

Adjusted water estimate (pre top-up):
Ca: 67, Mg: 5, Na: 22, Cl: 100, SO4: 48
Collected ~6 US gallons in BK. Topped up to 8 US gallons pre-boil volume with ~2 US gallons local tap water. Boiled off 1.5 US gallons for final volume of 6.5 gal.