Element On detection

[Merkur]

Hi - I am putting together a 240V system with a 5500W element. I have a 240V/60A outlet and intend to add a control box between that and a socket for a Brew Commander to control the brew, pumps etc. I know that the Brew Commander has an ‘Element On’ in the screen but I like the idea of a large red lamp as on the dedicated Electric Brewery, Spike or other PID based control panels. The control box will also have an ‘Emergency Stop’ button and maybe a power meter in it too.

So my question is, has anyone made a comparator circuit that will turn on an indicator lamp when the quiescent current jumps up above say 5 Amps. That would indicate that the element is on. I can design one myself using a current transformer but someone may know of something that is commercially available or have built one and has some past experience to share.

Paul

 

[doug293cz]

The easiest way to get an "element on" indication is just to wire an indicator lamp in parallel with the element. An example is in the control panel schematic below. I highly recommend having an element on indicator as SSR's can fail in the "on" mode, in which case the "firing" light on the PID, and the "firing" light on the SSR are both useless, since the SSR can be on when those are off.

Brew on

 

[mabrungard]

I agree, wiring a 240v LED in parallel into the switched circuited downstream of the SSR works well. All my elements have that feature so I know when the SSR is actually powering the element.

 

[Merkur]

I fully agree. I didn’t however want to ‘break into’ the Brew Commander box or the element connector to run the wires to a lamp. It’s another set of wires to clutter the brew-table and being 240V - albeit at negligible current - the wire will be thick. A separate circuit inline from the outlet (which I need to break into anyway to convert the outlet from a NEMA 14-50 to a 14-30 and add a mechanical ‘emergency stop’ contactor, is a cleaner and safer solution.

Paul

 

[doug293cz]

I'm not a fan of cobbling together multiple boxes from different sources to make a control panel. If the BrewCommander by itself doesn't meet your requirements, then you should find a pre-built controller that does, or DIY your own. Just my opinion. I'd also suggest you think hard about just what an E-stop switch gives you, if you already have a co-located main power off switch. In industrial situations, E-stops are usually located remotely from the control panel, in locations that equipment operators (who need to do an emergency shutdown) are likely to be during normal operations. You don't find E-stops on the main control panels.

Brew on

 

[Merkur]

The main power off switch is two rooms away from the outlet. Hence the feeling I needed an E-Stop rather than grabbing a big NEMA 240V 60 Amp switch and yanking it out of the wall - possibly with wet hands if something has gone wrong. Yes it’s GFCI protected but that is a last resort and should not be the primary mode of shutting the power off!

Paul

 

[doug293cz]

The main power off switch is two rooms away from the outlet. Hence the feeling I needed an E-Stop rather than grabbing a big NEMA 240V 60 Amp switch and yanking it out of the wall - possibly with wet hands if something has gone wrong. Yes it’s GFCI protected but that is a last resort and should not be the primary mode of shutting the power off!

Paul

Doesn't the BrewCommander have an "off" switch that disconnects power? If not, I wouldn't even consider using one.

Haven't seen a schematic of a BrewCommander, and don't even know if one is available.

Brew on

 

[Merkur]

Yes the Brew Commander does have an off switch and an icon on the small screen indicating the Element is ‘On’. I am unaware however if that switch just shits off the control logic and whether in the case of an SSR failure, the small switch would shut off the pumps and element outputs.

Paul

 

[doug293cz]

Yes the Brew Commander does have an off switch and an icon on the small screen indicating the Element is ‘On’. I am unaware however if that switch just poopys off the control logic and whether in the case of an SSR failure, the small switch would shut off the pumps and element outputs.

Paul

If the small switch controls a contactor, then it could shut everything off, and that would be acceptable. If it just controls the logic, then that is unacceptable.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Just found a bunch of pics of the insides of a BrewCommander here. From what I can see, there is no main power disconnect at all. If the SSR fails, then there is no way to shut off power to the element (other than disconnecting the element.) I consider this design unfit for use.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

It does have a "line cord on/off"

 

[Merkur]

@doug293cz That was my point exactly. It has a lot of very nice features and a good user-friendly interface. However it lacks a couple of features which I would like to add in a power control box:
1) Power connector adaptor from the 14-60 wall outlet to the 14-30 that the Brew Commander uses.
2) Emergency disconnect pushbutton
3) Element ‘on’ indicator lamp

Paul

 

[doug293cz]

It does have a "line cord on/off"

Where? I don't see anything in the pics that looks like a switch or relay that could handle 30A.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

Sorry, was making a joke about simply unplugging the damned thing

 

[Merkur]

Where? I don't see anything in the pics that looks like a switch or relay that could handle 30A.

Brew on

The main on/off is in the bottom right as shown in the picture. This picture (from the Blichmann site) also shows the red ‘Heat’ icon which shows when the element is firing. Or rather when the control electronics is telling the SSR to turn the element on. The concern I have is that it is not as noticeable as a ‘traditional’ control panel 1” red lamp and can only be seen when looking at the screen.

I believe it’s a good device with a good UI and the Blichmann name behind it. Everyone’s brew space is different and I’m just trying to make this more useful in mine and safer. That switch will not protect the element or the wort if the SSR fails ‘on’ as the do.

Paul

 

[craigmw]

Just found a bunch of pics of the insides of a BrewCommander here. From what I can see, there is no main power disconnect at all. If the SSR fails, then there is no way to shut off power to the element (other than disconnecting the element.) I consider this design unfit for use.

Brew on

The lack of an element disconnect switch is precisely the reason I decided to build my own. I almost purchased a BrewCommander because it looks like a very nice controller, but the lack of an element disconnect switch was a deal breaker for me. The price to build my own was roughly the same as the Brew Commander, so it was a difficult choice.

 

[craigmw]

The lack of an element disconnect switch is precisely the reason I decided to build my own. I almost purchased a BrewCommander because it looks like a very nice controller, but the lack of an element disconnect switch was a deal breaker for me. The price to build my own was roughly the same as the Brew Commander, so it was a difficult choice.

Actually, it was a bit more expensive to build my own because I ended up using an Opto22 45A SSR. With that much voltage and current, I thought it best to purchase a quality SSR but maybe that's just me!

 

[kenack]

Actually, it was a bit more expensive to build my own because I ended up using an Opto22 45A SSR. With that much voltage and current, I thought it best to purchase a quality SSR but maybe that's just me!

What did you use as a guide to build your own? I'd like to try building a 240v herms controller that's waterproof so I can leave in on the wall in my brew area which is open on 2 sides.

 

[doug293cz]

What did you use as a guide to build your own? I'd like to try building a 240v herms controller that's waterproof so I can leave in on the wall in my brew area which is open on 2 sides.

Truly "waterproof" is going to jack up your panel costs, as every switch, lamp, power connector, signal connector, cable gland, and anything else that mounts or goes thru a hole in the enclosure also needs to be waterproof construction, and have waterproof sealing around the enclosure opening. I haven't seen a single homebrew level control panel that could be considered waterproof.

Brew on

 

[kenack]

Thanks Doug! I see your point, I guess a solid moisture resistant controller is what I need. I can take it into the house when I'm done brewing.

 

[mike neff]

Doug. I built a controller off this exact schematic. The only issue is the element firing lamp is reversed and lights up when element is off. It works so well (70 batches), surprisingly because I have no electrical background, that I don’t want to open the box to check and risk loosening any wires. I just labeled it my element off lamp but was just curious If u know what I did wrong.

 

[doug293cz]

Doug. I built a controller off this exact schematic. The only issue is the element firing lamp is reversed and lights up when element is off. It works so well , surprisingly because I have no electrical background, that I don’t want to open the box to check and risk loosing any wires. I just labeled it my element off lamp but was just curious if u had any idea

Sounds like you might have connected the LED lamp between the wrong two circuit points. If you connected the LED between the terminals of the SSR, you would get the behavior you describe.

Brew on

 

[Cato1507]

Just found a bunch of pics of the insides of a BrewCommander here. From what I can see, there is no main power disconnect at all. If the SSR fails, then there is no way to shut off power to the element (other than disconnecting the element.) I consider this design unfit for use.

Brew on

I have the Brew Commander and really enjoy using it. It's connected to the wall outlet through an inline GFCI with a manual reset/trip button.

Are you saying that if I stopped my boil and shut off the BC power on/off rocker switch the SSR could still power the element?

If so, I need to contact Blichmann about this potential flaw.

 

[doug293cz]

I have the Brew Commander and really enjoy using it. It's connected to the wall outlet through an inline GFCI with a manual reset/trip button.

Are you saying that if I stopped my boil and shut off the BC power on/off rocker switch the SSR could still power the element? Yes. If the SSR fails completely (permanent), or latches in the "on" state due to excessive temperature (temporary.)

If so, I need to contact Blichmann about this potential flaw.

If you are close to the GFCI, you could use the "Test" button on the GFCI to shut off power to the BC.

Brew on

 

[craigmw]

What did you use as a guide to build your own? I'd like to try building a 240v herms controller that's waterproof so I can leave in on the wall in my brew area which is open on 2 sides.

Kenack:

I followed some of Short Circuited Brewers (Highland Brewer I believe here on HBT). He had some very helpful posts on building control panels, including an eBIAB panel. I've also followed many of the posts here and viewed many of the circuits put together by doug293cz and others here on HBT (Thanks Doug!). I'm pretty comfortable working with electronics and electrical circuits, so I didn't have too much trouble figuring it all out. My panel might be considered a "rat's nest" in comparison with some of the very neat ones shown on HBT, but it complies with electrical code, includes both a main power contactor and heating element contactor, is fed from a nearby panel with a dedicated 30A GFCI breaker, and includes an element power indicator so I know when it is actually firing. So far, no sparks or blue smoke!

 

[Bobby_M]

I have the Brew Commander and really enjoy using it. It's connected to the wall outlet through an inline GFCI with a manual reset/trip button.

Are you saying that if I stopped my boil and shut off the BC power on/off rocker switch the SSR could still power the element?

If so, I need to contact Blichmann about this potential flaw.

Well, I'm sure they know. An SSR would likely fail in the middle of operation and then you'd realize that the boil continued after you shut the heat off. That would prompt you to unplug the controller or hit the breaker to shut the circuit down. It's hard to put a figure on how often SSRs fail because the quality between a true trusted industrial controls company like Omron and the cheapest of Aliexpress knock offs is immense. In my 6 years of brewing electric (about 100 batches), none of my SSRs have ever failed in the "current on" state and haven't failed in any way for that matter.

 

[Bobby_M]

Doug. I built a controller off this exact schematic. The only issue is the element firing lamp is reversed and lights up when element is off. It works so well (70 batches), surprisingly because I have no electrical background, that I don’t want to open the box to check and risk loosening any wires. I just labeled it my element off lamp but was just curious If u know what I did wrong.

Does it light up even when the element is plugged in to the controller or are you seeing it light up when the element is not plugged in. If the latter, that's totally normal. You need the load in place.

 

[Cato1507]

Well, I'm sure they know. An SSR would likely fail in the middle of operation and then you'd realize that the boil continued after you shut the heat off. That would prompt you to unplug the controller or hit the breaker to shut the circuit down. It's hard to put a figure on how often SSRs fail because the quality between a true trusted industrial controls company like Omron and the cheapest of Aliexpress knock offs is immense. In my 6 years of brewing electric (about 100 batches), none of my SSRs have ever failed in the "current on" state and haven't failed in any way for that matter.

@Bobby_M and @doug293cz , here is the reply I got back from Blichmann support. I agree its probably a rarity for that failure, and even if it were to happen in my brewing steps I would likely notice it visually and could trip my reset on the inline gfci, which is right by the controller.

"Yes, that is correct if that were to happen it could stick in the ON mode.
There is no way to indicate it is still on. We do not recommend that the system is left connected to a power supply when not in use."

Sincerely,
Doug Granlund
Customer Service
Blichmann Engineering

 

[mike neff]

It li

Does it light up even when the element is plugged in to the controller or are you seeing it light up when the element is not plugged in. If the latter, that's totally normal. You need the load in place.

It lights up when element is off and plugged in. Basically opposite of the little light on easy boil. Im thinking that I wired it wrong like Doug said. Works fine though so I’ll just leave it. Thanks

 

[craigmw]

It li

It lights up when element is off and plugged in. Basically opposite of the little light on easy boil. Im thinking that I wired it wrong like Doug said. Works fine though so I’ll just leave it. Thanks

I have a couple ideas of what might have gone wrong. If you accidentally wired the indicator light to terminal 1 (power input) of the SSR as shown in Doug's schematic instead of terminal 2 (power output), the indicator would be on when the SSR is switched off, and possibly the load of the element dims the indicator, making it appear to be off. A more likely scenario is that the indicator is wired between terminals 1 and 2. In this case, the indicator would light when the element is plugged in and the SSR is off, and then the indicator shuts off when the SSR fires because the voltage difference between terminals 1 and 2 would be zero. An easy way to check this is to see if the indicator turns off when the SSR is off and the element is unplugged. Seems like a simple fix to me.

 

[doug293cz]

I have a couple ideas of what might have gone wrong. If you accidentally wired the indicator light to terminal 1 (power input) of the SSR as shown in Doug's schematic instead of terminal 2 (power output), the indicator would be on when the SSR is switched off, and possibly the load of the element dims the indicator, making it appear to be off. A more likely scenario is that the indicator is wired between terminals 1 and 2. In this case, the indicator would light when the element is plugged in and the SSR is off, and then the indicator shuts off when the SSR fires because the voltage difference between terminals 1 and 2 would be zero. An easy way to check this is to see if the indicator turns off when the SSR is off and the element is unplugged. Seems like a simple fix to me.

If the indicator light was wired between SSR terminal 1 and the black hot line, the light would be on whenever the element power enable switch (Leviton 3032) was on. To get Mike's behavior, you have to wire the indicator between terminals 1 and 2 of the SSR.

Brew on

 

[craigmw]

If the indicator light was wired between SSR terminal 1 and the black hot line, the light would be on whenever the element power enable switch (Leviton 3032) was on. To get Mike's behavior, you have to wire the indicator between terminals 1 and 2 of the SSR.

Brew on

Agreed. It should be a pretty simple fix to move the indicator lead from terminal 1 on the SSR to the opposite line power lead and get the appropriate function from the indicator.

 

[mike neff]

I added a light that shows when the element power switch is on and that works fine. Not sure if that would effect firing light as it wasn't in original plan. U guys have me curious I’m gonna have to open it up and check this weekend. Thanks for the replies

 

[craigmw]

This is the drawing I went off of. I added a light that shows when the element power switch is on and that works fine. Not sure if that would effect firing light as it wasn't in original plan. U guys have me curious I’m gonna have to open it up and check this weekend. Thanks for the repliesView attachment 676822

I'm not sure if the indicator attached through a neutral would do this. More likely is that the line feeding the element firing lamp runs to the switch contact that is connected to terminal 1 of the SSR. I can see how that could easily be miswired and result in that indicator behavior.

 

[doug293cz]

The added "Element Power Enable" indicator lamp will not affect the other indicator lamp. The new lamp was added correctly (if wired as drawn.)

Brew on

 

[Islandboy85]

I fully agree. I didn’t however want to ‘break into’ the Brew Commander box or the element connector to run the wires to a lamp. It’s another set of wires to clutter the brew-table and being 240V - albeit at negligible current - the wire will be thick. A separate circuit inline from the outlet (which I need to break into anyway to convert the outlet from a NEMA 14-50 to a 14-30 and add a mechanical ‘emergency stop’ contactor, is a cleaner and safer solution.

Paul

Wire gauge is dependent on the circuit current not voltage. You could use an inline fuse and 22 AWG wire if you wanted to.