Electric Question

[CodeRage]

You can go 6 to 10vdc for a power supply. Really strange though, considering everything uses 12vdc... I am guessing 6vdc is the drop out voltage of the 5v regulator they are using.

You could get a 12vdc and put 3 or 4 large zeiner diodes in series before it goes into the BCS. (I can't remember if its a .7 or .5v drop per). If it's .7 then they would dissipate about .35W of heat, .5V would be .25W, at the 6W power they quote for the wall wort. So you would need .5W diodes.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Updated drawing...

I could still use some help with the E-Stop.

CodeRage - I looked at the circuit in the PDF in your Electrical Primer thread but can't say I follow.

Anyone see any problems with this before I start sourcing parts?

Thanks,
Ed

View attachment Visio-Panel v2.5.pdf

 

[CodeRage]

Hey bud, having a night mare of a brew night so bare with me if I seem short.

Are you powering the BCS with the 5v power supply? thought it was a minimum of 6v?

If you are using the aux 5v out to power your controls they need to be on separate buses. Same goes for the DC- although they may be tied internally on the BCS

If you do need to separate the buses then the BCS power supply should have a fuse on it, U/L 508 derates it 50% but you could put the largest fuse under the current rating. Make sure it is a fast blow.

On the 5vdc control power from the BCS, you should put a 300 or 250ma fast blow fuse. Should it bump something it shouldnt, it wont cook the BCS.

I'll get back to yah in a bit

 

[tpgsr]

For your e-stop, you will want to place it before EVERYTHING on the control circuit. I can send you a 22.5mm e-stop with a normally closed contact block on it if it will help you to see what you are working with. I also have an enclosure if you want it outside of the main panel.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Hey bud, having a night mare of a brew night so bare with me if I seem short.

Are you powering the BCS with the 5v power supply? thought it was a minimum of 6v?

If you are using the aux 5v out to power your controls they need to be on separate buses. Same goes for the DC- although they may be tied internally on the BCS

If you do need to separate the buses then the BCS power supply should have a fuse on it, U/L 508 derates it 50% but you could put the largest fuse under the current rating. Make sure it is a fast blow.

On the 5vdc control power from the BCS, you should put a 300 or 250ma fast blow fuse. Should it bump something it shouldnt, it wont cook the BCS.

I'll get back to yah in a bit

First things First... Get the brew under control !!!

I screwed up the drawing! I plan to use a 6vdc power supply (worst case, I'll use the wall wort). All other control voltage will come from the BCS outputs or the BCS +5Vdc terminal.

Don't worry about looking at this tonight. I don't have visio on this PC, and I have shut the other one down already. I'll re-work the drawing tomorrow.

Nice catch on the drawing... thanks.

Good luck with the brew!

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

For your e-stop, you will want to place it before EVERYTHING on the control circuit. I can send you a 22.5mm e-stop with a normally closed contact block on it if it will help you to see what you are working with. I also have an enclosure if you want it outside of the main panel.

tpgsr,

I haven't forgotten your earlier input. Once I get the drawing straightened out, I thought I would contact you to see if you could help me source some stuff.

Off the top of my head, some things I know I need;
Switches, 50amp Double Pole Contactor, Terminal Strips, Pilot Lights, SSRs & Heatsinks for the heat elements, maybe Fuses & holders.

I have 2 enclosures, a 16" x 16" slant top, and a 10" x 12". Today I received six 8amp ssrs.

Thanks for taking a look...

Ed

 

[tpgsr]

I have lots of din rail and terminal blocks I can send you, the other stuff will ahve to be a bit more specific once you have it all locked down.

 

[CodeRage]

Thanks Ed,
You know it's deserving... I usually adjust my beersmith mash profile for a thin mash but tonight I decided to thick mash it like it suggests. Stuck mash, with a RIMS it's a real bitch on a 75 minute mash. Stirring with one hand, adjusting the element outputs in the other. draining to the BK now...

As far as the E-stop goes. You will need one NC contact on it. Run 120 from one on of your legs to one side of the contact, then run the other side of the contact to the coil of the contactor. Then run neutral to the other side of the coil. (Make sure you pick up L1 or L2 BEFORE it goes into the contactor, on the supply side.)

Then you will run the supply side of L1 and L2 into one side of each contact, then run the other sides to their respective distribution blocks.

So when you hit the E-stop, the NC contact opens, causing the coil to denergize, opening the contactor, which kills everything attached to the distribution blocks.

Just started the boil... going to be a long night.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Thanks Ed,
You know it's deserving... I usually adjust my beersmith mash profile for a thin mash but tonight I decided to thick mash it like it suggests. Stuck mash, with a RIMS it's a real bitch on a 75 minute mash. Stirring with one hand, adjusting the element outputs in the other. draining to the BK now...

As far as the E-stop goes. You will need one NC contact on it. Run 120 from one on of your legs to one side of the contact, then run the other side of the contact to the coil of the contactor. Then run neutral to the other side of the coil. (Make sure you pick up L1 or L2 BEFORE it goes into the contactor, on the supply side.)

Then you will run the supply side of L1 and L2 into one side of each contact, then run the other sides to their respective distribution blocks.

So when you hit the E-stop, the NC contact opens, causing the coil to denergize, opening the contactor, which kills everything attached to the distribution blocks.

Just started the boil... going to be a long night.

Had a late meeting so I just got home... no work on beer related stuff tonight. But, I gotta ask... what the hell are you doing starting a boil at 11:45 pm?

Hope your night turned around last night and the brew finished well.

I'm gonna try to post my updated drawing tomorrow but had a thought... If I end up using SSR's on the 220 elements, should the 5Vdc control to the relays be in series, or parallel?

Thanks as always,
Ed

 

[CodeRage]

I'd say it was a late meeting.

Lol, if you haven't noticed Im a bit of a night owl. Usually the only time I get to brew is once the rug rat is in bed. We moved him from his crib to his toddler bed around Christmas. I think I have cut a groove in the hardwood floors from having to get up and bust him sneaking out of bed every 30 seconds. So I got a later start than usual, and I was in one of those come hell or high water moods. The new CFC saved me a ton of time though. Fermenter was full at 1:05 and the brewery was soaking in hot PBW 20 minutes later. It's going to be a DRY pale ale, spent a lot of time in the 140s. It is what it is.

Yeah, you got the control wiring right in the last drawing, parallel. If you wire them in series you start dividing the voltage up, so for 2 SSRs it would look like 2.5V at each coil.

Something I would like to add. Though it was sticking like mofo, the 4500W RIMs heater was nice! Pol, you're going to be happy. If you plan on doing any step mashes you may want to make provisions for a 240v element there. 1500W will do you just fine maintaining a single mash temp.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I'd say it was a late meeting.

Lol, if you haven't noticed Im a bit of a night owl. Usually the only time I get to brew is once the rug rat is in bed. We moved him from his crib to his toddler bed around Christmas. I think I have cut a groove in the hardwood floors from having to get up and bust him sneaking out of bed every 30 seconds. So I got a later start than usual, and I was in one of those come hell or high water moods. The new CFC saved me a ton of time though. Fermenter was full at 1:05 and the brewery was soaking in hot PBW 20 minutes later. It's going to be a DRY pale ale, spent a lot of time in the 140s. It is what it is.

Yeah, you got the control wiring right in the last drawing, parallel. If you wire them in series you start dividing the voltage up, so for 2 SSRs it would look like 2.5V at each coil.

Something I would like to add. Though it was sticking like mofo, the 4500W RIMs heater was nice! Pol, you're going to be happy. If you plan on doing any step mashes you may want to make provisions for a 240v element there. 1500W will do you just fine maintaining a single mash temp.

It wasn't a work related meeting so I can deal with it.

I did notice you seem to be on late... I just never thought about brewing that late. Started a brew after work (about 5pm) one time and that was enough. The brewing wasn't so bad, but the cleanup was like torture.

I updated the attached drawing to reflect the BCS power supply (nice catch, thanks). I also put in components for the e-stop but I have to say, I don't think it is right, and I really am having trouble getting my head around it.

I'm hoping it will be easier to wire than for me to draw?

My thoughts on the 1500watt rims heater;
The new rig is going to have a 50amp plug, therefore not very portable. Right now, I brew off site quite a bit. While I can't take the new rig with me... I'm thinking I could take the RIM's heater and continue to use my current PID setup for portablity. The elements in the HLT & BK are removeable so I can heat with propane if needed. I'd like to make sure I can still brew with a 15amp receptacle.

Ed

View attachment Visio-Panel v3.pdf

 

[CodeRage]

I either forgot or didn't know about that requirement but it makes perfect sense.

Now I see why you were getting confused about the E-stop. The circuit you used was a half stop start circuit with an E-stop. (The drawing you got it from, you need the rung blow it too.)

Where you have CR1 it should be a regular relay. When you press the momentary start button it allows R1 to energize. Because R1 is using a set of NO contacts to energize it self, it will stay on when you release the start button. This allows you to plug the brewery in and it not power up right away until you are ready. This is what is called a latch circuit.

Now you will wire from one of the Lines(Before the E-STOP disconnect) to the second set of NO contacts on R1. You will then run the other side of those contacts to the coil of your E-STOP CR coil. On the other side of the coil, wire it to Neutral.

Now when R1 energizes, it will energize the coil of the E-STOP CR causing it to close and powering up the brewery.

When you press the E-STOP button it break the power to R1 causing the R1 contacts to open. Which causes the E-STOP CR to open. The system will not start again until you unlock the E-STOP button and the press the start button again. The E-STOP is the reset portion of the latch.

You could just use the E-STOP button power the E-STOP CR directly. The reason why this isn't normally done is because some one may panic and repeatedly hit the E-STOP, possibly reset it, which would cause the brewery to power up again. The other is if something went wrong with the locking mechanism of the E-STOP the system would stay powered down, even if the E-STOP button resets it self.

for the relay, look for an octal based ice cube relay.
Like this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ALLEN-BRADLEY-7...aultDomain_0?hash=item563836b0f2#ht_500wt_956
and the base
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-RELAY-SOCKE...QQ_trkparmsZalgo=MW&its=C&itu=UCC&otn=5&ps=63

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I'm pretty sure that I'm stupid.
I "think", maybe with any luck, I finally have the E-Stop figured out. I had to draw boxes around the "components" so I could try to understand the pieces involved.

I read you description a dozen times and looked all over the net for examples, but until I drew it and followed it, it really didn't sink in. With any luck I have the logic and the components right.

Please take a look and see if I have the attached drawing correct.

I know it's not a proper ladder diagram, but hopefully you can follow my twisted logic.

Thanks

Ed

View attachment Visio-Panel v3.5.pdf

 

[CodeRage]

I'm pretty sure that I'm stupid.
I "think", maybe with any luck, I finally have the E-Stop figured out. I had to draw boxes around the "components" so I could try to understand the pieces involved.

I read you description a dozen times and looked all over the net for examples, but until I drew it and followed it, it really didn't sink in. With any luck I have the logic and the components right.

Please take a look and see if I have the attached drawing correct.

I know it's not a proper ladder diagram, but hopefully you can follow my twisted logic.

Thanks

Ed

It's a winner! pick a prize from the top shelf young man.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

It's a winner! pick a prize from the top shelf young man.

Getting this right is a reflection on you, more than me...
Thank you very much for your patience and help.

I really wanted to understand HOW this was going to work as opposed to be told something like "Run the blue wire from X to terminal 2 on Y". I may still need that when I get my hands on the physical components, but now I understand the logic behind it.

Next step is to identify & size components and try to source them.

Thanks again,

Ed

 

[Baron ken]

...
You could just use the E-STOP button power the E-STOP CR directly. The reason why this isn't normally done is because some one may panic and repeatedly hit the E-STOP, possibly reset it, which would cause the brewery to power up again. The other is if something went wrong with the locking mechanism of the E-STOP the system would stay powered down, even if the E-STOP button resets it self.
...

Given your caveats, this E-Stop w/ key should work connecting to the contactor directly, correct? Just tap the L2 line to the e-stop then to Contactor1 then to N (gnd) (and remove the PB and Relay1)? I would wire it so that the E-Stop would have to be pulled to provide power to the contactor and pushed to kill power.

 

[CodeRage]

Not a problem Ed. Once you fire it up and get to see it, it's all going to just click in your head.

Given your caveats, this E-Stop w/ key should work connecting to the contactor directly, correct? Just tap the L2 line to the e-stop then to Contactor1 then to N (gnd) (and remove the PB and Relay1)? I would wire it so that the E-Stop would have to be pulled to provide power to the contactor and pushed to kill power.

Yes it would work, and wouldn't be a bad one to use with the stop/start circuit either. You couldn't start the brewery until some one unlocked the E-stop button. You would use the NC contact to drive the start relay or contactor depending on the circuit you used. You could use the NO contact to tell the BCS or what not that the E-STOP button is active.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Another question for you guys...
On the fuses for the 5500 watt elements; since I am putting a fuse on each leg L1 & L2, will 20 amp fast acting fuses work? I have some 1/4" glass fuses and holders. If not can I use a 30 amp delay? (they are available in 1/4", but fast acting aren't).

Also, as drawn, I have the fuses in front of the SSR's, should they actually be between the SSRs and the elements & pumps?

Thanks
Ed

 

[CodeRage]

5500W is ~23 amps. So those 20A fuses wont work. You can get Bussman fuses in 30A FB. http://www.lowes.com/pd_286568-7369...catorDisplayView&selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=[com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean@47fb5e00,+com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean@47c41e00,+com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean@448b1e00,+com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean@44f41e00,+com.lowes.commerce.storelocator.beans.LocatorStoreBean@44d59e00]&NttParam=&Ntt=30+amp+fuse&isQvSearch=searchQV&URL=TopCategoriesDisplayView&langId=-1&langId=-1&mastheadURL=TopCategoriesDisplayView&storeId=10151&storeId=10151&Ntk=i_products&qvRedirect=/pd_286568-73694-BP%2525252FNON-30_0_%3FproductId%3D1269485%26Ntt%3D30+amp+fuse%26Ntk%3Di_products&ddkey=http:CategoryDisplay

I would put them before the SSR, preferably right after the power distribution. The element really isnt going to draw extra current unless it some how manages to conduct straight to the wort. In that case the element is dead any how. Other than that, what will pop the fuse is something causing a short in your wiring which will not burn up the element. In both scenarios you are likely to damage the SSR and or wire with out a fuse.

As for the pump, putting the fuse before the SSR would save the SSR too. Personally I put the fuse as far ahead of the load as possible.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

5500W is ~23 amps. So those 20A fuses wont work. You can get Bussman fuses in 30A FB.
I would put them before the SSR, preferably right after the power distribution. The element really isnt going to draw extra current unless it some how manages to conduct straight to the wort. In that case the element is dead any how. Other than that, what will pop the fuse is something causing a short in your wiring which will not burn up the element. In both scenarios you are likely to damage the SSR and or wire with out a fuse.

As for the pump, putting the fuse before the SSR would save the SSR too. Personally I put the fuse as far ahead of the load as possible.

Thanks for the quick response.

I was hoping I might be able to find a 30A FB, 1/4" glass fuse (automotive type) because I already have some fuse holders. McMaster has them in Delay but not FB.

A quick google search looks like they are out there...

I have some of the pieces and would love to get started as soon as possible.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Hey guys, I need some input/advise/recommendations on switches for my new rig. I've looked at several options but kinda settled on e-bay (cheap) or Automation Direct for a source. Automation Direct carries their own switches and Eaton switches. The price goes up starting with E-bay, then Automation Direct, then Eaton. I'm adding links below for the switches I'm looking at.
Any input, advise, experience or recommendations would sure be appreciated.

Also, I don't have any experience with these switches with the contact blocks. Can I setup a 2 position switch as a DPDT? What contact blocks would I need to order?

Thanks,
Ed

E-Bay switches;
E-Stop:
http://cgi.ebay.com/PBC-XB2BS545-RE...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad2698a92

Start:
http://cgi.ebay.com/PBC-P22XTMO1-EG...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1e57d3efc1

Selectors:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130307597426&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Automation Direct switches;
E-Stop:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ttons_Illuminated_-a-_Non-Illuminated/GCX1135

Start:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...inated_Pushbuttons_Flush_-a-_Extended/GCX1102

Selectors:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...a-_Non-Illuminated/Non-Illuminated/GCX1320-22

Eaton Switches;
E-Stop:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...-z-_Mushroom_Pushbuttons_-a-_Stations/E22LB2B

Start:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...eries)/Flush_-a-_Extended_Pushbuttons/E22PB3A

Selectors:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...22mm_(E22_Series)/Selector_Switches/E22XBG1RR

 

[CodeRage]

I was burned on E-bay once on switches. The mounting plates just crumbled like glass. So I get mine through AD now. Also, if you need extra contact blocks for the E-bay ones they may be hard to find.
Personally, I like the AD 22mm plastic switches. They're pretty good for the price.

The E-stops you grabbed from AD and Eaton are momentary. You want to look for push on pull off or push on twist off.
AD
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ttons_Illuminated_-a-_Non-Illuminated/GCX1131

Eaton/Cutler Hammer
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...z-_Mushroom_Pushbuttons_-a-_Stations/E22LPB2B
This one is pretty $****
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc..._Mushroom_Pushbuttons_-a-_Stations/E22JLB2N8B

The contact blocks are pretty easy. You keep stacking them onto the back of switch for every additional contact needed.
A 2 position switch would need a NO and NC block to act as a SPDT, so 2 NOs and 2 NCs would make it a DPDT. I have to look at your drawings again but I think all you need is single NO contacts for each side of the switch (2 NOs for the 3 pos selector and 1 NA for the 2 Pos Selector.
The E-stops come with 1 NC usually, and thats all you would need. The momentary start needs one NO as well.

I've a whole box full of AD NC blocks if you need some, so don't order any extras of those.

I'll edit this post after I look at your drawings again.

 

[CodeRage]

Made a shopping list for you.

E-Stop $9.25
Start Button $4.75 (flush will avoid accidental starts)
2 Pos HLT/BK Selector $7.25
3 Pos HOA switch $14 x 5 (Of course these would be the most expensive)

You need one extra NC contact for the BK/HLT switch but you can take it from the ones that come with the 3 pos switches, you wont need them there.

A total of $91.25, $70 of that is the 3 pos boogers.

You can try to find the 3 pos cheaper elsewhere. FYI I did and wished I had bought them the first time from AD.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Made a shopping list for you.

E-Stop $9.25
Start Button $4.75 (flush will avoid accidental starts)
2 Pos HLT/BK Selector $7.25
3 Pos HOA switch $14 x 5 (Of course these would be the most expensive)

You need one extra NC contact for the BK/HLT switch but you can take it from the ones that come with the 3 pos switches, you wont need them there.

A total of $91.25, $70 of that is the 3 pos boogers.

You can try to find the 3 pos cheaper elsewhere. FYI I did and wished I had bought them the first time from AD.

WOW!!! Thank you so very much!

Very good input/advice. I was a bit worried about the e-bay stuff, so everything you say makes perfect sense.

Parts are coming together. I ordered the SSRs & Heat Sinks yesterday. I "won" a contactor on e-bay. I found the e-stop latching relay & socket ad AD (I'll order with the switches). I bought a some of THHN. I also bought 30amp twistlocs for the elements (I have 10awg SO cord).

I still need some terminal blocks (not real sure what I need and can use with the 6awg) and 30amp fuses and holders.

I'm hoping to have all the parts so I can start laying the panel out this week!

 

[CodeRage]

Not a problem at all. For the E-stop relay you don't need a special relay, this is all you would need.
Relay $4.25
Base $3.75

 

[Brewmoor]

I'm hoping to have all the parts so I can start laying the panel out this week!

Can't wait to see it all finished. I am getting to the same point in my project. I painted my stand over the weekend so now I just have to assemble all the parts. I don't know about you, but I am ready to be finished. Trying to source all the parts needed can keep you busy.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Can't wait to see it all finished. I am getting to the same point in my project. I painted my stand over the weekend so now I just have to assemble all the parts. I don't know about you, but I am ready to be finished. Trying to source all the parts needed can keep you busy.

You have a stand !?!?!?.. You are way ahead of me

I have my keggles welded and all the pieces. (Still need to clean em up and put em all together)

I have an electrical design and parts are arriving.

I still have to work out a plumbing plan. Right now I have a bunch of hoses and QDs so everything is "modular".

I will probably run several tests / batches before I put too much into the stand and plumbing. Being electric, I think there are lots of options.

I still have to learn how to take advantage of the BCS-460.

I'm having fun but you are right... sourcing parts is a pain.

Ed

 

[Baron ken]

CodeRage,
Thanks for that partslist (I'll be using some of that too)! How about a suggestion for the Contactor1 (for the incoming 220v lines, I need 30 Amp capacity)?

 

[CodeRage]

40 amp contactor
These are inexpensive and have worked well for me.

 

[pickles]

CodeRage - I'm assuming the wiring diagram drawn up by Ohio-Ed would work if the BCS was substituted with a Brewtroller. Do you know if thats the case?