Electric Question

[CodeRage]

WOW... THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE!!! It will take me a bit of time to read through and I'm sure even more to understand:cross:

I actually have AutomationDirect and digikey catalogs (I requested them when I started down this path) and the switches confuse the bejesus out of me. I know I need contactors or relays, but the lists just go on and on... I will read through the responses and try again to get my head around it.

Ed

Yeah, I almost did a drawing for you but thought. "You can give a man a beer, or teach him how to brew...."

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Yeah, I almost did a drawing for you but thought. "You can give a man a beer, or teach him how to brew...."

LOL... You know... I often drink WHILE I brew!

Thanks again for the direction... I'm lovin all I'm learning.

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Alright, you guys gave me a ton of input to think about. I'm gonna try to eat this elephant one bite at a time... So here goes.

Let's start with the output relays:

I understand the benefit of the DSSR recommendation. The only ones I have seen seem to be very expensive. Can I use 2 separate SSR's? Or do you have a source for less pricey DSSRs?

I understand I can use mechanical relays for the pumps. The reason I thought of SSRs is because they appear to have a wide range for control voltage 3-32vdc.
Keep in mind I am not 100% sure what I will use for control (BCS460, Brewtroller, or PID)
I know the BCS460 output is 5vdc (300mA max for all outputs), and it appears the Brewtroller and PIDs output is 12vdc.
So, can I get a mechanical relay that I can switch with 5-12vdc? Any specific brand/model?

That's a start for now... any input is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[passedpawn]

Alright, you guys gave me a ton of input to think about. I'm gonna try to eat this elephant one bite at a time... So here goes.

Let's start with the output relays:

I understand the benefit of the DSSR recommendation. The only ones I have seen seem to be very expensive. Can I use 2 separate SSR's? Or do you have a source for less pricey DSSRs?

I understand I can use mechanical relays for the pumps. The reason I thought of SSRs is because they appear to have a wide range for control voltage 3-32vdc.
Keep in mind I am not 100% sure what I will use for control (BCS460, Brewtroller, or PID)
I know the BCS460 output is 5vdc (300mA max for all outputs), and it appears the Brewtroller and PIDs output is 12vdc.
So, can I get a mechanical relay that I can switch with 5-12vdc? Any specific brand/model?

That's a start for now... any input is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ed

Yes, you can get relays with a coil voltage of 12VDC. search digikey for relay, then drill down to what you want.

I think the cheapest place to buy SSRs is ebay. That is where I bought my DSSRs.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Yes, you can get relays with a coil voltage of 12VDC. search digikey for relay, then drill down to what you want.

I think the cheapest place to buy SSRs is ebay. That is where I bought my DSSRs.

Any specific links?

I'm not being lazy... I just don't know what I am looking at.

I went to digikey and looked for a 5vdc coil relay and got almost 1000 hits.
I went to ebay and found nothing under dssr, and nothing under dual ssr.

Thanks for any direction you can offer.

Ed

 

[Fingers]

I have a couple of 40 amp SSRs with heat sinks coming from Hong Kong. I'm not really confident of Chinese goods, so I over rated them 100% in anticipation of substandard quality. I'll let you know what I wind up getting.

 

[passedpawn]

Any specific links?

I'm not being lazy... I just don't know what I am looking at.

I went to digikey and looked for a 5vdc coil relay and got almost 1000 hits.
I went to ebay and found nothing under dssr, and nothing under dual ssr.

Thanks for any direction you can offer.

Ed

Here is a "sold state relay" search on ebay.

I didn't see any duals on there either, but I did buy mine on there (Crydom D2425D)

Digikey didn't stock what you are looking for. Try here at mouser. That is a nice panel-mount relay that will work for you (I think). $2.50.

 

[CodeRage]

Hey Ed, I missed your post some how. I'm having a hard time finding the too. Here is a spec sheet for one to prove that they use to exist any how
http://documents.tycoelectronics.co...rtrv&DocNm=1308242_SSRD&DocType=DS&DocLang=EN

If you can't find an SSRD then you can just pair up to SSRs on the same control line. No biggie.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Hey Ed, I missed your post some how. I'm having a hard time finding the too. Here is a spec sheet for one to prove that they use to exist any how
http://documents.tycoelectronics.co...rtrv&DocNm=1308242_SSRD&DocType=DS&DocLang=EN

If you can't find an SSRD then you can just pair up to SSRs on the same control line. No biggie.

Thanks for the input.

Yea... I know they are out there. They just appear to be pricey. The dssr's I have seen appear to be $50+. I guess one advantage over doubling up sss's is fewer heat sinks.

I'm struggling with how to configure an element to be controlled by a 3 way selector switch that is not high current. I've been looking for a picture/drawing but not having a whole lot of luck.

Also... any specific ideas on a mechanical relay I can use with 5vdc?
Would you suggest panel mount or using some kind of socket?

Since I have a bcs460 and it's output voltage is 5vdc... does it make sense to use 5vdc for control through out the whole panel? Should I be looking for a 5vdc power supply for relay coils etc (or is another voltage more common and therefore more readily available?)

Dang, I have a lot of questions... The lists just seem to go on and on...


Ed

 

[CodeRage]

Thanks for the input.

Yea... I know they are out there. They just appear to be pricey. The dssr's I have seen appear to be $50+. I guess one advantage over doubling up sss's is fewer heat sinks.

I'm struggling with how to configure an element to be controlled by a 3 way selector switch that is not high current. I've been looking for a picture/drawing but not having a whole lot of luck.

Also... any specific ideas on a mechanical relay I can use with 5vdc?
Would you suggest panel mount or using some kind of socket?

Since I have a bcs460 and it's output voltage is 5vdc... does it make sense to use 5vdc for control through out the whole panel? Should I be looking for a 5vdc power supply for relay coils etc (or is another voltage more common and therefore more readily available?)

Dang, I have a lot of questions... The lists just seem to go on and on...


Ed

5vdc relays aren't cheap, mechanicals any ways. Thats why I wish the BCS outputs were at least 12VDC. Or worst case an open drain output...

Regardless, I found these guys on ebay super cheap. I'd snatch them up for the outputs that don't need an SSR.
http://cgi.ebay.com/SMALL-CRYDOM-SS...ultDomain_0?hash=item53dc1a9aed#ht_646wt_1165

Then use one of those to drive an auber contactor for the high current stuff. They can drive a march pump on their own.

If you are still having trouble figuring it out I'll draw yah up something this weekend. Can you point me to some kind of interface schematic to the BCS?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

5vdc relays aren't cheap, mechanicals any ways. Thats why I wish the BCS outputs were at least 12VDC. Or worst case an open drain output...

Regardless, I found these guys on ebay super cheap. I'd snatch them up for the outputs that don't need an SSR.
http://cgi.ebay.com/SMALL-CRYDOM-SS...ultDomain_0?hash=item53dc1a9aed#ht_646wt_1165

Then use one of those to drive an auber contactor for the high current stuff. They can drive a march pump on their own.

If you are still having trouble figuring it out I'll draw yah up something this weekend. Can you point me to some kind of interface schematic to the BCS?

Not a schematic but some info (if you haven't seen it)... I will continue to see what I can find:

http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page#Technical_Specifications

http://www.embeddedcontrolconcepts.com/wiki/index.php?title=Technical_Specifications

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

5vdc relays aren't cheap, mechanicals any ways. Thats why I wish the BCS outputs were at least 12VDC. Or worst case an open drain output...

Regardless, I found these guys on ebay super cheap. I'd snatch them up for the outputs that don't need an SSR.
http://cgi.ebay.com/SMALL-CRYDOM-SS...ultDomain_0?hash=item53dc1a9aed#ht_646wt_1165

Then use one of those to drive an auber contactor for the high current stuff. They can drive a march pump on their own.

If you are still having trouble figuring it out I'll draw yah up something this weekend. Can you point me to some kind of interface schematic to the BCS?

I think I may have just had an epiphany, here is my thought:
I have been thinking that I need to apply current directly (not through the ssr) to the heat elements when in manual mode AND disconnect the AC current taking the ssr completely out of the circuit when in the OFF position.

Can I just put a selector switch in the 5vdc control line to the ssr instead?
So I would have something like this:
Position 1 - BCS Output to SSR
Position 2 - Open to SSR
Position 3 - 5vdc to SSR (assuming I bought a 5vdc power supply for control voltage)

Do I NEED a contactor in the AC line to the SSR, or will switching the control line be enough?

(btw... Unless I'm missing something, the link you posted for the relay above is for an SSR)

Thanks,
Ed

 

[CodeRage]

Yes, that would work brilliantly. You'll have to be sure that the BCS and the +5v power supply you use have their commons bonded.

Yes, those are indeed SSRs and they are a much cheaper alternative than mechanical relays for the small loads needed to be controlled by the BCS. One could easily operate 2 march pumps, or larger contactors.

If you ARE going to use a 5v control system I would suggest using those.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Yes, that would work brilliantly. You'll have to be sure that the BCS and the +5v power supply you use have their commons bonded.

Yes, those are indeed SSRs and they are a much cheaper alternative than mechanical relays for the small loads needed to be controlled by the BCS. One could easily operate 2 march pumps, or larger contactors.

If you ARE going to use a 5v control system I would suggest using those.

I have been a bit afraid of SSR's... The first time I connected one it kind of "bled" ac voltage. If I tested the ac output with a meter, there was AC voltage present regardless of the control voltage (on or off). Once I put a load on the ssr, it appeared to work fine. Is this normal?

So, I'm thinking I'd still like to have a double pole contactor on the incoming 240... Can my "Main Power On/Off" also double as an E-Stop?

Thanks again,
Ed

 

[passedpawn]

Thanks for the input.

Yea... I know they are out there. They just appear to be pricey. The dssr's I have seen appear to be $50+. I guess one advantage over doubling up sss's is fewer heat sinks.

I'm struggling with how to configure an element to be controlled by a 3 way selector switch that is not high current. I've been looking for a picture/drawing but not having a whole lot of luck.

Also... any specific ideas on a mechanical relay I can use with 5vdc?
Would you suggest panel mount or using some kind of socket?

Since I have a bcs460 and it's output voltage is 5vdc... does it make sense to use 5vdc for control through out the whole panel? Should I be looking for a 5vdc power supply for relay coils etc (or is another voltage more common and therefore more readily available?)

Dang, I have a lot of questions... The lists just seem to go on and on...


Ed

What are you trying to do? I can probably help you. I do schematic design all day long. I'd much rather be drawing brewing gadgets than medical equipment! (and I'm my own boss).

 

[CodeRage]

I have been a bit afraid of SSR's... The first time I connected one it kind of "bled" ac voltage. If I tested the ac output with a meter, there was AC voltage present regardless of the control voltage (on or off). Once I put a load on the ssr, it appeared to work fine. Is this normal?

So, I'm thinking I'd still like to have a double pole contactor on the incoming 240... Can my "Main Power On/Off" also double as an E-Stop?

Thanks again,
Ed

Yeah, an SSR needs a load to appear off.

I would strongly advise that you use a two poll contactor with an E Stop. You could also put a system on/off latch circuit in there too.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

What are you trying to do? I can probably help you. I do schematic design all day long. I'd much rather be drawing brewing gadgets than medical equipment! (and I'm my own boss).

Basically, I have a BCS-460. I am in the process of building a 5500 watt HLT and a 5500 watt BK. I have a 1500 watt RIMs heater, 2 march pumps and 4 Temp Probes for the BCS460. I also have a 50 amp GFCI breaker.

If you look at post #11 in this thread you can see where I am/was...
I think I had a revelation today when I realized I can switch the control voltage and therefore not need high current selector switches. I was trying to think of how to do a 3 way double pole selection using power relays. Because the BCS outputs are 5vdc, I think I am going to locate a 5v power supply to use for additional/manual control.

I can kinda follow a simple schematic. But defining and sourcing specific components is a whole new problem.

I am still pretty early in the process so any input is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[passedpawn]

Basically, I have a BCS-460. I am in the process of building a 5500 watt HLT and a 5500 watt BK. I have a 1500 watt RIMs heater, 2 march pumps and 4 Temp Probes for the BCS460. I also have a 50 amp GFCI breaker.

If you look at post #11 in this thread you can see where I am/was...
I think I had a revelation today when I realized I can switch the control voltage and therefore not need high current selector switches. I was trying to think of how to do a 3 way double pole selection using power relays. Because the BCS outputs are 5vdc, I think I am going to locate a 5v power supply to use for additional/manual control.

I can kinda follow a simple schematic. But defining and sourcing specific components is a whole new problem.

I am still pretty early in the process so any input is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ed

I built my system with 1 PID and 2 elements. I use a selector switch as shown in this drawing to select which element, and which thermocouple, returns to the PID.

Maybe you can get something out of it. I used the selector switch to switch the control input of one of the SSRs .

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Yeah, an SSR needs a load to appear off.

I would strongly advise that you use a two poll contactor with an E Stop. You could also put a system on/off latch circuit in there too.

I reworked the drawing based on switching control instead of current. I also made it a bit more like a ladder diagram.

I still have details to add... (E-Stop, Indicators, etc) but wanted to know what you think so far? I know it may not be complete, but do you see anything wrong?

Thanks for your help so far,
Ed

View attachment Visio-Panel v2.0.pdf

 

[CodeRage]

Bravo Ed! Not a bad job at all!

Only two bits of correction.

Current sources should be on the left. Both L1 and L2 would be to the left of the loads.

The E stop disconnects should be at the top.

May make a controls engineer out of you yet Add the elements you think you are missing and it should be good.

If you are going to use panel switches and such the symbols you are using are incorrect. But that is okay, you don't know what the right way is. We'll see if we can fix that tonight

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Bravo Ed! Not a bad job at all!

Only two bits of correction.

Current sources should be on the left. Both L1 and L2 would be to the left of the loads.

The E stop disconnects should be at the top.

May make a controls engineer out of you yet Add the elements you think you are missing and it should be good.

If you are going to use panel switches and such the symbols you are using are incorrect. But that is okay, you don't know what the right way is. We'll see if we can fix that tonight

OK... so what order should the "rails" be in left to right?
Does L1, L2, +5vdc, -dc, N work?
Then should my outputs be between the +5vdc and -dc rails?

 

[CodeRage]

Usually it looks something like

L1,L2, +DC, control logic, load, -DC, N

Your outputs from the BCS would look like normally Open contacts with the appropriate label and pin numbers placed between the +5VDC and 0VDC.

+5VDC -> BCS outputs contact -> SSR Coil -> 0VDC.

I like the BCS, I think it is a pretty clean looking package. The only thing that bugs me about it is the Digital Outputs, for all the different equipment that can be used, a set of dry contacts would have been great. 2 or more 0-5VDC Analog outputs would be great too. Im guessing the Analog inputs are 0to 5 as well. Oh well.. Wish in one hand and ... in the other.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I found this contactor, but can't find any other details. Does the coil voltage refer to the voltage required to close/open the contacts? I don't even know if this is NO or NC? Any thought if this may work for my Main Power / E-Stop?

http://www.spaandpoolsource.com/contactordoublepole240vcoil50amp.aspx

I looked at the contactors at Aubers... they are 40amp. I know that's more than I would draw as things are currently layed out, but just thought, if possible I should design for all I can get out of the 50amp GFCI and 6/4 SO cord I bought.

 

[CodeRage]

Contactors are Normally Open. Yes, 240VAC is required to energize the contactor. Mechanical relays and contactors use an electromagnet (the coil) to cause the contacts to open or close. So thats why they give a coil rating. It'll work for yah.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

CodeRage - I had another thought...
The BCS requires 6 - 10vdc to operate. The outputs are 5vdc.
Can I use a single 6vdc power supply to run the BCS AND provide ancillary control as I had drawn instead of a 5vdc power supply?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[CodeRage]

The SSRs wont have a problem with it. You'll have to make sure that the 6vdc doesn't back feed into the outputs just to be safe.

Double checked your drawing. Yeah, wiring it that way you'll be fine.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Crap... So, I've spent the last 3 hours looking for a chassis mount 6vdc power supply. Looks like "wall worts" are available. Any idea if and where I might find a chassis mount version?

Update:

Just realized the BCS has a separate +5Vdc connector that is rated at 300mA output. I'm thinking I should be able to use this for separate manual cotrol, right?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Updated previous post.

 

[CodeRage]

Crap... So, I've spent the last 3 hours looking for a chassis mount 6vdc power supply. Looks like "wall worts" are available. Any idea if and where I might find a chassis mount version?

Update:

Just realized the BCS has a separate +5Vdc connector that is rated at 300mA output. I'm thinking I should be able to use this for separate manual cotrol, right?

Yup! That would be the best option period!

Don't use it for anything other than signal voltage for DIs and control lines to SSRs. Don't want to put a whole lot of load on it.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Gettin darn close... I hate the idea of building a "wall wort" into a panel. If I can find a 6Vdc "Brick" with an AC cord, I guess I could cut the plug and wire it into a terminal strip to power the BCS? If I found a 12v Power supply, would it be tough to convert it to 6v?

Ed