Electric HERMS Control Panel

[stickyfinger]

What would you change about your current control panel if you had a chance to re-do it? I don't mean how would you make it the best thing on Earth, but if were starting over without going crazy, what features would you find most essential and convenient for a reasonable cost increase?

I'm currently thinking a PID-On switch, a single PID, two pump switches (illuminated) and a 3-way selector switch for HLT/off/BK selection with one light for both the HLT and BK when element is firing, oh and an emergency off button. I think that's all I'd ever really care about, but maybe I should put in something else?

 

[LandoLincoln]

1) PID on-off switch is nice / useful.
2) A single PID? For BIAB, sure, but if you have more than one element, you need more than one PID.
3) I started out with pump switches on my control panel, but I realized that pump switches located near the pumps mounted directly on the brew stand were much more useful.
4) I highly recommend building a system that allows one to fire both the BK and HLT elements at the same time, so no need for a selector switch between BK and HLT. I heat up my strike water in my BK while my sparge water is heating up in my HLT. Once my strike water is ready, I transfer that into the MLT and mash in, and by the time I'm done with that, the sparge water is at the right temperature to regulate the temperature of the HERMS coil, so I recirculate through my HERMS coil while recirculating the HLT water to prevent temp striation. When the mash is done, I transfer the wort out of the MLT while I transfer sparge water into the MLT from the HLT at the same rate (fly sparging). I end up with really clear wort in the BK and my mash temps stay nice and stable. I'm not exactly sure how people manage to do things without two elements firing simultaneously. I'm sure it takes longer.
5) I've never had a need for my e-stop button, but I'm glad it's there. Along with the contactor that shuts down power to (almost) the entire control panel.

Things I installed but don't really need and kinda wish I didn't waste the money:
1) Alarm switches and an alarm for the BK / HLT. I'm never really far away from my control panel, so I don't have to have my control panel yell at me telling me when I'm getting close to temp.
2) A main power switch. If the e-stop is connected to a contactor, then the e-stop will work fine as a main power switch. Or just unplug it / plug it in. That works too. But the illuminated button looks cool, so that's something.

Things I'm glad I didn't install:
1) A timer, especially considering how pricey they are. Who doesn't have at least three other ways to keep track of a boil or mash?
2) Volt / amp meter. This is some pretty useless info for brewing purposes.
3) A keyed main power switch. Seriously? We're not launching nukes, here.

Things that you didn't mention that I'm glad I installed:
1) Float switches for the HLT and BK. So very glad I installed these. These have saved my heating elements on a number of occasions. I get distracted during certain times of the brew day and I'm not always cognizant of leaving the heating element switches on accidentally.
2) Indicator lights for when the heating elements are firing. There's tiny indicator lights on the PIDs for when the elements are firing, sure, but they're small and aren't that easy to see from the other side of the room. Indicator lights are pretty cheap.

 

[stickyfinger]

I am basing a lot of my background thinking on Kal's build at theelectricbrewery.com, as it is a very awesome site.

1) PID on-off switch is nice / useful.

I suppose this is in effect what the "element selector" switch does on Kal's panel, where it is off in the middle and effectively turns on power to the element with selecting HLT or BK? In your case, you are saying that the PIDs would be dark until you turn them on and then they light up and start heating (if they are set higher than the actual temp?) You could do it that way or have them always lit up and then have a switch to have the heating element capable of heating up when you switch it.

2) A single PID? For BIAB, sure, but if you have more than one element, you need more than one PID.

The one-PID design seems to be pretty simple and elegant in my opinion (IF you choose to only use one element at a time for heating) as you simply use automatic mode when heating the HLT and manual mode when boiling the wort. This also eliminates the need for an RTD in the boil kettle, but prevents the use of an alarm buzzer in the BK when you are approaching boil temps (eg 208 or so) which seems like a cool idea.

3) I started out with pump switches on my control panel, but I realized that pump switches located near the pumps mounted directly on the brew stand were much more useful.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I hadn't thought of that. I'd probably want to adjust the flow rate a lot, so I'd be bending over to do that after going over to the panel. Why not just mount the switch on the stand, as you say.

4) I highly recommend building a system that allows one to fire both the BK and HLT elements at the same time, so no need for a selector switch between BK and HLT. I heat up my strike water in my BK while my sparge water is heating up in my HLT.

You can do this almost as quickly with a single element at a time system I am told. First, if you have a 20 gallon HLT for 6-12 gallon batches, you just fill up the HLT to full and will have enough strike and sparge water for most batches. If you don't have enough water in the HLT, you just recirc water through your HERMS coil from your mashtun as the HLT is heating to get the mashtun water and HLT water hot at the same time.

The reasons I was thinking 2 independent elements might be better are the following:

1) You can heat up cleaning or sanitizing water in the HLT while the wort is boiling

2) You can keep sparge water at 168F while sparging while at the same time start heating up your wort in your BK to get a jump on the boil and save time. If you switch over to the BK element in a single element system, the sparge water will drop in temp as you are sparging (probably not a big deal if you do a mashout step.)

5) I've never had a need for my e-stop button, but I'm glad it's there. Along with the contactor that shuts down power to (almost) the entire control panel.

I was just reading on some Canadian homebrew forum where there was a guy bagging on the E-Stop button and saying how you shouldn't rely on GFI for system shutdown, you should use a panel on/off switch. I thought maybe a full panel on/off would be a good option instead of the e-stop. otherwise, I could just pull the plug, no big deal (if it's readily accessible.)

I don't really understand the contactor comment due to my ignorance of how your system works.

Things I installed but don't really need and kinda wish I didn't waste the money:
1) Alarm switches and an alarm for the BK / HLT. I'm never really far away from my control panel, so I don't have to have my control panel yell at me telling me when I'm getting close to temp.

That's funny. I thought it would be really cool to have the alarm scream at me when the HLT is at temp and when the BK is near boiling. I'm always screwing those two items up when I'm multi-tasking. Another option I thought of was to just get a cheap alarm thermometer that will beep as it reaches temperature.

2) A main power switch. If the e-stop is connected to a contactor, then the e-stop will work fine as a main power switch. Or just unplug it / plug it in. That works too. But the illuminated button looks cool, so that's something.

Why not just have a main power switch instead of an E-stop button? I don't see why the E-Stop is better than just shutting off power to the panel?

Things I'm glad I didn't install:
1) A timer, especially considering how pricey they are. Who doesn't have at least three other ways to keep track of a boil or mash?

I have to agree with that. I don't need that even if it seems kind of cool.

2) Volt / amp meter. This is some pretty useless info for brewing purposes.

what are those rectangular, digital units on your panel? they look like volt and amp meters.

3) A keyed main power switch. Seriously? We're not launching nukes, here.

yeah, that seems over the top

Things that you didn't mention that I'm glad I installed:
1) Float switches for the HLT and BK. So very glad I installed these. These have saved my heating elements on a number of occasions. I get distracted during certain times of the brew day and I'm not always cognizant of leaving the heating element switches on accidentally.

That's one advantage of shutting off the HLT element when you start sparging I think! I never would have thought they would be that useful. Do you just install them right above the level of the heating elements? Are they brass or stainless?

2) Indicator lights for when the heating elements are firing. There's tiny indicator lights on the PIDs for when the elements are firing, sure, but they're small and aren't that easy to see from the other side of the room. Indicator lights are pretty cheap.

I did mention them when I said "one light for...", but may have been confusing in my vocabulary. At first I thought it wasn't a big deal, but I want to see when the elements are firing I think!

 

[LandoLincoln]

I based a lot of my panel off of Kal's info too, so I know where you're coming from.

It's been a while since I studied his diagrams, but if I remember correctly, Kal's selector switch allows power to flow to either the HLT's SSR or to the BK's SSR or neither (via contactor) and doesn't affect the power flowing to the PID's. So the PID's could be sending signals to the SSR's telling the elements to fire, but that selector switch stops power flowing to the SSR's so nothing's going to happen.

Let me back up a little bit. You've got your PID's which are the mini-computers that monitor the temperature and rate of how fast the temperature is rising or dropping. They send out low-amperage signals to the solid state relay (SSR) which takes that low-amperage "go ahead" signal and allows a high-amperage circuit to flow through them and into the heating elements. Once that "go ahead" signal stops coming from the PID, the SSR stops the high-amperage electricity from flowing through it. SSR's are nice in this application because of the frequent on/off cycles required. If PID's were made a lot beefier and could handle the high amperage flowing through them, then you wouldn't even need the SSR's, but they don't make them that way, so you do.

Now you've got your contactors, which basically do the same thing that SSR's do, except that they are mechanical relays, and they make a nice satisfying clacking noise every time that the "go ahead" signal is passed to them. They're good for taking low-amperage flows from switches and turning them into high amperage flows of electricity. Again, if you had switches on your system that could handle 30 amps of power flowing through them then you wouldn't need contactors, but those switches are pretty pricey and so it's cheaper just to go with contactors controlling the high-amperage flow of power. Since contactors aren't designed to be turned on and off very much, they don't need to have heat sinks connected to them like SSR's do, so that's one advantage to using a contactor.

SO. Where were we. Ah, yes.

So Kal's setup has a switch that allows a low-amperage circuit to flow to either the BK contactor that allows high-amperage power to flow to the BK SSR, or to the HLT contactor that allows high-amperage power to flow the the HLT SSR or to neither.

My setup has two switches instead of one selector switch, so I could energize both the BK and HLT contactors which would allow power to flow to both the BK and HLT SSR's at the same time. And I can get away with this because the main power flowing into my control panel is big enough (50 amps) to power two 5500w elements at the same time, along with 2 pumps and the PIDs and the lights in some of the buttons. If you're running new power lines to a place in your basement or garage, then I'd highly recommend just running 50 amp wiring instead of 30 amp wiring. It's not a big price differential and if you decide you need the extra power later on, it will save you money from having to rip out the old wiring and adding in larger gauge wiring.

Using one PID for two different temperature probes can be a problem. PIDs need to go through a learning program to understand how fast or slow your system heats up. So say you've got a temp probe inside your BK and you hook that up to your PID and you heat some water up using the PIDs learning program and the PID learns all it needs to and it's good to go. But then you hook that same PID up to a different probe on your HLT's output valve and now it has to deal with a different probe and different heat cycle of the HLT. It's probably going to be close to what it was with the BK, but it's probably not going to be the same heat cycle, so it's going to be a little wonky. In my opinion, it's worth the $35 for the extra PID to avoid the wonkiness.

Yes, you can avoid all of that by just not having a temp probe inside the BK at all and just run the BK heat process in manual mode and run the BK's SSR at 100% until you get to boiling and then drop it down a bit to avoid too vigorous a boil. My system wouldn't work with that since I heat my strike water up in my BK. But to each their own process.

Another good reason to have the strike and sparge water separated and heating up separately: mineral additions. The tap water at my house is ridiculously hard, so I usually have to use 50% distilled / 50% tap water for my strike water, and I have to usually add some lactic acid and some calcium chloride to boot. For very light colored beers I usually use 100% distilled and add various minerals accordingly. The sparge water pH isn't nearly as critical as the strike water is, so I just use 100% tap water for sparging purposes and I don't have to add any minerals to the sparge water. So if I had only my HLT to use for heating up both my strike and sparge water, I'd have to use a lot more distilled water, and I'd have to add the minerals directly into the mash tun, and in my personal experience I get better results when adding the minerals and especially the lactic acid into the strike water as opposed to adding them into the mash.

Yes, it definitely is a time-saver to start heating up your BK while the sparge is taking place. But honestly, that could be done with only power flowing to one element. You get your sparge water up to temp and then turn off the HLT element as soon as you want to start heating up the BK, just turn the HLT element off. By the time you're done sparging, the sparge water isn't going to cool off much. It's not going to affect the sparge efficiency, in my opinion.

There's two schools of thought on the e-stop wiring. 1) You can hook up the e-stop button to force the GFCI circuit to trip, killing all power to the system. 2) You can hook up the e-stop button to a contactor that allows power to flow to the rest of the control panel, so if you hit that e-stop button, the contactor will kill all power to the rest of the control panel, but there will still be electricity flowing to that one contactor, so the panel isn't 100% "dead."

I went with the second route. I wasn't crazy about forcing the GFCI to trip like that, but I did want to make sure that if I needed power to stop flowing to the heating elements/SSRs/other contactors/PIDs/pumps/all switches except for the e-stop switch, I'd be covered. My e-stop switch takes in some low amperage power from the main power supply and if the e-stop is not engaged it allows power to flow to my main on/off switch. If the main power switch is on, it allows power to flow to the main power contactor. If the main power contactor is on, it allows power to flow to the rest of the system. That's how mine works. So yeah, my main power switch is redundant, but oh well. It cost me $12 and it lights up a nice red color when it's on and makes me happy to hit that big red button and hear the main power contactor clacking on and I know that the brew day has officially begun, so it's $12 well spent, in my opinion.

The alarm thing is a good idea, sure, but in my own practice it's not very helpful. I set my BK PID to the proper temperature for my strike water, I set my HLT PID for the proper temp for my sparge water, and then I got and grind up my grains. If I'm away from the control panel when either of them get to the right temp, it's no big deal since the PIDs just bring the waters up to the proper temp and keep them there. Having an alarm tell you when you're getting close to boiling is a good idea, I suppose. I usually keep the BK lid on until it starts to boil and then I take the lid off once it's boiling. If I don't catch it in time it starts to foam over and leak around the edge of the lid. I think the alarm light / buzzer was $10-$12 and the switches for the BK and HLT were $5 each, so for $17 you can prevent BK boil-overs if you're not paying attention. Not too bad, I guess.

Those rectangular things on my control panel are digital temp displays for my MLT and chiller. They're connected to temp probes on the MLT valve output and chiller valve output, respectively. I got them off of eBay for I think $17 each, shipped. Cheaper then dedicating a $35 PID just to monitor the temps and do nothing else. The displays are much larger than a PID display too, so they're easy to see when I'm chilling the wort and I'm away from the control panel.

My float valves are stainless steel and they're mounted about a gallon above the level of my heating elements. Sometimes I forget to turn off the power to the HLT element while sparging, and I also occasionally forget to turn off the power to the BK element while draining into the chiller. For forgetful people like me, I highly recommend them.

 

[Cioffi]

1) PID on-off switch is nice / useful.
2) A single PID? For BIAB, sure, but if you have more than one element, you need more than one PID.
3) I started out with pump switches on my control panel, but I realized that pump switches located near the pumps mounted directly on the brew stand were much more useful.
4) I highly recommend building a system that allows one to fire both the BK and HLT elements at the same time, so no need for a selector switch between BK and HLT. I heat up my strike water in my BK while my sparge water is heating up in my HLT. Once my strike water is ready, I transfer that into the MLT and mash in, and by the time I'm done with that, the sparge water is at the right temperature to regulate the temperature of the HERMS coil, so I recirculate through my HERMS coil while recirculating the HLT water to prevent temp striation. When the mash is done, I transfer the wort out of the MLT while I transfer sparge water into the MLT from the HLT at the same rate (fly sparging). I end up with really clear wort in the BK and my mash temps stay nice and stable. I'm not exactly sure how people manage to do things without two elements firing simultaneously. I'm sure it takes longer.
5) I've never had a need for my e-stop button, but I'm glad it's there. Along with the contactor that shuts down power to (almost) the entire control panel.

Things I installed but don't really need and kinda wish I didn't waste the money:
1) Alarm switches and an alarm for the BK / HLT. I'm never really far away from my control panel, so I don't have to have my control panel yell at me telling me when I'm getting close to temp.
2) A main power switch. If the e-stop is connected to a contactor, then the e-stop will work fine as a main power switch. Or just unplug it / plug it in. That works too. But the illuminated button looks cool, so that's something.

Things I'm glad I didn't install:
1) A timer, especially considering how pricey they are. Who doesn't have at least three other ways to keep track of a boil or mash?
2) Volt / amp meter. This is some pretty useless info for brewing purposes.
3) A keyed main power switch. Seriously? We're not launching nukes, here.

Things that you didn't mention that I'm glad I installed:
1) Float switches for the HLT and BK. So very glad I installed these. These have saved my heating elements on a number of occasions. I get distracted during certain times of the brew day and I'm not always cognizant of leaving the heating element switches on accidentally.
2) Indicator lights for when the heating elements are firing. There's tiny indicator lights on the PIDs for when the elements are firing, sure, but they're small and aren't that easy to see from the other side of the room. Indicator lights are pretty cheap.

I'm curious about the float switches. Any chance you could post pics? How'd you go about building, installing, etc., them?

 

[stickyfinger]

Thank you so much for all of the useful information, LoL!

Now you've got your contactors, which basically do the same thing that SSR's do, except that they are mechanical relays, and they make a nice satisfying clacking noise every time that the "go ahead" signal is passed to them. They're good for taking low-amperage flows from switches and turning them into high amperage flows of electricity. Again, if you had switches on your system that could handle 30 amps of power flowing through them then you wouldn't need contactors, but those switches are pretty pricey and so it's cheaper just to go with contactors controlling the high-amperage flow of power. Since contactors aren't designed to be turned on and off very much, they don't need to have heat sinks connected to them like SSR's do, so that's one advantage to using a contactor.

And, I've now come to realize that if you want to use a switch rated for 10ish amps or less (which most of the non-toggle,metal style ones seem to be) you have to have them switch a contactor, which then opens the gates for the SSR to send the voltage in response to the PID.

If you're running new power lines to a place in your basement or garage, then I'd highly recommend just running 50 amp wiring instead of 30 amp wiring. It's not a big price differential and if you decide you need the extra power later on, it will save you money from having to rip out the old wiring and adding in larger gauge wiring.

I think that is an excellent point. I'm just going to go with 50A all the way up the receptacle that I'll plug the panel into. That makes the most sense for sure. Plus, I can later install a wind tunnel or small amusement park in my basement if I get tired of brewing!

Using one PID for two different temperature probes can be a problem. PIDs need to go through a learning program to understand how fast or slow your system heats up.

Can you even use one PID for two probes without unplugging the probe and plugging in a new one? I don't want to do that. In fact, after thinking about this more, I'm pretty sure I want 2 PIDS, maybe 3.

Yes, you can avoid all of that by just not having a temp probe inside the BK at all and just run the BK heat process in manual mode and run the BK's SSR at 100% until you get to boiling and then drop it down a bit to avoid too vigorous a boil. My system wouldn't work with that since I heat my strike water up in my BK. But to each their own process.

I had been stuck in the mindset of what Kal's 30A panel is doing. I think the extra flexibility of a 50A seems to make a lot of sense. It would be a pain to redo it all later or make a new panel again. At first, I thought I'd just throw together a smaller, cheaper one element, 1 pid panel, but maybe I'll go for the gusto a bit.

Another good reason to have the strike and sparge water separated and heating up separately: mineral additions.

You can do this if you just heat your mash water with the HERMS coil. The HLT should be able to get up to sparge temps by the time the mash is done I would hope! But, you can heat it all up faster with 2 elements at once I guess. I was interested in using the HLT to heat up some cleaning water or sanitize silicone tubing, etc. Otherwise, I'd have to install a little cooktop in my basement, which I may still do.

There's two schools of thought on the e-stop wiring. 1) You can hook up the e-stop button to force the GFCI circuit to trip, killing all power to the system. 2) You can hook up the e-stop button to a contactor that allows power to flow to the rest of the control panel, so if you hit that e-stop button, the contactor will kill all power to the rest of the control panel, but there will still be electricity flowing to that one contactor, so the panel isn't 100% "dead."

I went with the second route. I wasn't crazy about forcing the GFCI to trip like that, but I did want to make sure that if I needed power to stop flowing to the heating elements/SSRs/other contactors/PIDs/pumps/all switches except for the e-stop switch, I'd be covered.

I like the second design better too. I don't even know if I'll put an E-Stop though. Why not just use the main panel power button if you have one? I guess the E-Stop is a backup to that? you can always pull the plug too, which could take a bit more time of course.

The alarm thing is a good idea, sure, but in my own practice it's not very helpful. I set my BK PID to the proper temperature for my strike water, I set my HLT PID for the proper temp for my sparge water, and then I got and grind up my grains. If I'm away from the control panel when either of them get to the right temp, it's no big deal since the PIDs just bring the waters up to the proper temp and keep them there. Having an alarm tell you when you're getting close to boiling is a good idea, I suppose.

This seems like it would be a really nice feature. In fact, I think this is a big inspiration for me to use 2 pids, just so I can have the alarm beep in the BK when it is getting close to 208. I hate having to keep looking at the brew kettle to make sure its not boiling over now. It's a sticky mess to clean up too! I think it will be well worth it.

Those rectangular things on my control panel are digital temp displays for my MLT and chiller. They're connected to temp probes on the MLT valve output and chiller valve output, respectively. I got them off of eBay for I think $17 each, shipped. Cheaper then dedicating a $35 PID just to monitor the temps and do nothing else. The displays are much larger than a PID display too, so they're easy to see when I'm chilling the wort and I'm away from the control panel.

That is a really good idea. For chilling, you don't have to bend down and look at your panel-mounted CFC/plate, which would be good. I am on the fence about the mash. If it came with an alarm feature, that would be cool, as I could then set it to alert me when my mash is up to mashout temp or other temps. If I can't use an alarm feature on that type of monitor, it might just be worth getting another pid. It's overkill for sure, but I like not having to babysit things like that. it's low on my priority list though. the bigger display is good for sure.

My float valves are stainless steel and they're mounted about a gallon above the level of my heating elements. Sometimes I forget to turn off the power to the HLT element while sparging, and I also occasionally forget to turn off the power to the BK element while draining into the chiller. For forgetful people like me, I highly recommend them.

I was wondering if I would even leave the HLT element on when sparging. My concern is that the water recirculation will be effectively off during sparging, as the water pump will be pushing water out to the mashtun, and the wort pump will be pushing wort to the BK, so the HLT is just heating without mixing. I was concerned that maybe the temp of the actual water sparging the MT at that moment could get too hot somehow without mixing. Much more important is your point about leaving the element in the HLT on. I think I would either write it into my procedure to shut off the HLT on a timer or right when starting sparging, OR get a float valve like you have. I am assuming that on button for your HLT element has to derive its power through a float valve circuit, and if the float drops, it opens that circuit to shut off the HLT element even when the HLT power button is on. How much was the float valve? Does it fit with a weldless fitting?

Again, thanks so much for taking the time to respond with so much info.

 

[stickyfinger]

LoL, didn't you say you have a brew stand with a laminate top? Is it just an old cabinet set/counter, or did you buy a laminate countertop and put it onto a table? I am thinking about building a bench like Kal's and then put a laminate countertop on it. I really like the durability and waterproof nature of laminate. It doesn't look as nice as wood, but I also want to use it for drying stuff, so it will get a lot of water on it. I'm just going to make an 8' and 6' bench, so i want them to match.

 

[stickyfinger]

Looks like the Auber temperature controllers have an alarm, but they're not much cheaper than PIDs. Maybe I should just put in a PID for the mashtun, and then I also have it as a backup if one of my other, more essential, PIDs goes out on me.(i could just swap it in)

 

[LandoLincoln]

I did build a brew stand out of 2x4's and I installed a laminate top onto it. A certain amount of wort gets spilled on my countertop on a normal brew day, and I can't imagine how much that would suck if one had wort spilling through the slats down below to where the beer pumps were residing.

I'd recommend building the stand very low (not as low as possible, but...low) so you have a lot of space between the top of the pots and the bottom of the exhaust hood. You don't want to be whanging your exhaust hood with a mash paddle often.

Using a third PID as the mash tun temp gauge / alarm system / backup to one of the other PIDs in case of failure is a good idea, especially if you'd really like an alarm for your mash temps. Another good thing about using one of their PIDs for that application is that the PIDs can be calibrated whereas the cheap temperature displays cannot be, so in a critical application like mash temps this might be a real advantage. My mash temp display consistently reads 1.5° lower than what my stick thermometer tells me, so when I'm reading the mash temps I always have to add 1.5°. A minor annoyance.

I'll respond to the other stuff later tonight after I get home and take a few pictures of the float switches.

 

[stickyfinger]

Good point on the PID calibration.

Can you give me some pics of your brew stand too?

 

[LandoLincoln]

Pic of my brew stand in action. I think the tabletop is 24" off the ground. This was when I was still using a cooler for my mash tun. I've since upgraded to a third pot for a MLT along with a HERMS coil for the HLT. Everything's kinda dark, but I made the legs out of doubled-up 2x4's and everything else is a single 2x4 construction. There's a few 2x4's on the underside of the tabletop for added support. I keep meaning to add a bit of trim to the edge of the laminate so it will look nicer. You can also see my stand-mounted illuminated pump switches in this pic. The right pump is on and the left pump is off. I mounted the switches onto rectangles of sheet metal and then screwed the sheets to the stand. Not the prettiest, but it works.

Pic of my pumps. I mounted the pumps onto a piece of 1x6 and then ran a couple of pieces of 1x4s on the lower part of the stand so the 1x6 had something to sit onto. I put a couple of screws through the 1x6 / 1x4s to keep the whole thing stable. If I ever needed to remove the pumps I'd just remove the two screws and both pumps would come out of there.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I'm curious about the float switches. Any chance you could post pics? How'd you go about building, installing, etc., them?

Here you go. That's the inside of my BK. The thermo probe is the top middle and to the left of that is the stainless steel float switch I bought from Auber Instruments. It's a weldless setup. It comes with a silicon o-ring and a locknut. No leaks so far. To install it, I filled the inside of the BK with water until the heating element was completely covered, and then I made a mark with a grease pencil of the water line. Then I took a look at the Auber mechanical diagram of the float switch and determined that the hole for the switch should be about 70mm higher than the water line. Popped the hole and away I went. The float switch circuit is placed in between the PID out and the SSR in, so if the float switch doesn't want the SSR to fire, it will stop the SSR from firing. The early version of the float switch just had two wires sticking out of it (no quick disconnect), so I took a set of mono audio connectors from Radio Shack and made a quick disconnect for that circuit. Works good.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Why not just have a main power switch instead of an E-stop button? I don't see why the E-Stop is better than just shutting off power to the panel?

You can certainly go that route. The e-stop is a big mushroom button that's easy to smack in case there's ever trouble. If I did redo my control panel I would probably just go with an e-stop button for use as the main power button and forgo the illuminated push button. Save a little money that way. Those illuminated push buttons can be a bit of a pain to wire too.

 

[kal]

What would you change about your current control panel if you had a chance to re-do it?

I think about the only thing I'd do differently is build a 50A panel instead of my 30A panel so that I could have 2 heating elements in the HLT instead of one. I'd probably still use one in the BK as I don't plan on brewing larger than 10 gallon batches (and cleaning 1 heating element is easier than 2 in a 20 gallon kettle).

Having 2 heating elements in the HLT would simply save time when heating up the strike/sparge water. It would also step mash a bit faster (not as much as you think as the heat transfer to the MLT lags behind the HLT).

It's not so much to save me work (as I'm not doing anything when waiting for the water to heat) but would help get through the brew day a bit faster if I wanted to compress the time a bit.

When wired my new brewery I put in 6ga wire to the wall receptacle so that I could go 50A eventually...

Kal

 

[stickyfinger]

I think about the only thing I'd do differently is build a 50A panel instead of my 30A panel so that I could have 2 heating elements in the HLT instead of one. I'd probably still use one in the BK as I don't plan on brewing larger than 10 gallon batches (and cleaning 1 heating element is easier than 2 in a 20 gallon kettle).
it.

When wired my new brewery I put in 6ga wire to the wall receptacle so that I could go 50A eventually...
Kal

So, you'd put 2 elements into your HLT and 1 element into your BK and then have selector switch for either HLT or BK element(s) operation (ie only the HLT or BK could heat at the same time)?

I was wondering why you didn't make the 50a back-to-back system for your own use. Then, you could heat the mash water in the BK and the sparge water in the HLT to speed things up a bit. It seems like that would work well for most beers, as the water required for the mash-in would probably cover the BK element in most cases, and then you could also start heating up your wort while the last of it is still sparging, which saves me a ton of time for me usually if I time it right. You can plan it so that the wort is just starting to think about boiling as the last of the sparge is completed.

 

[kal]

So, you'd put 2 elements into your HLT and 1 element into your BK and then have selector switch for either HLT or BK element(s) operation (ie only the HLT or BK could heat at the same time)?

Correct. That's my 50A panel for 30+ gallon design - looks the same on the front as the 30A panel:

But has two extra heating element receptacles on the bottom:

I was wondering why you didn't make the 50a back-to-back system for your own use.

I never brew back to back batches.

Then, you could heat the mash water in the BK and the sparge water in the HLT to speed things up a bit.

It's simpler to just have two elements in the HLT and heat all the water at once.

...and then you could also start heating up your wort while the last of it is still sparging...

I can do that too with this panel (and my current panel) since I stop heating the sparge water the moment I start sparging. This is done by design/on purpose. My sparge water starts at 168F and slowly drops over the 60-90 min sparge to reduce the chance of tannin extraction as the mash pH goes up and the gravity goes down.

Kal

 

[stickyfinger]

Oh, ok! I forgot that you shut of your HLT element when you start sparging or sometime into sparging. I'd probably forget and leave it on anyway, without a float switch! That makes sense. The HLT could contain quite a lot of water at times, so it makes sense to beef up its heating capability a lot more than the BK.

 

[jeffmeh]

Of course, one could always get fancy and build a 50a panel with two elements in the HLT and two in the BK, so that you could switch between 4 off, 2 on in HLT, 2 on in BK, and 1 on in HLT and 1 on in BK.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Of course, one could always get fancy and build a 50a panel with two elements in the HLT and two in the BK, so that you could switch between 4 off, 2 on in HLT, 2 on in BK, and 1 on in HLT and 1 on in BK.

Hmm. Fitting two elements in one BK might be a bit of a challenge. But I like how you think.

 

[stickyfinger]

Of course, one could always get fancy and build a 50a panel with two elements in the HLT and two in the BK, so that you could switch between 4 off, 2 on in HLT, 2 on in BK, and 1 on in HLT and 1 on in BK.

I think you'd probably just set it up so it's 4 off, 2 on in HLT, 2 on in BK or 4 on. I don't see any reason to separate the ones inside of each vessel, unless you could only fit one high up and one down low so that you could only use one per kettle when the water/wort level was low. I guess that could happen.

Anyway, stop tempting me! I think Kal's idea of putting two in the HLT at least is a pretty good idea.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I think you'd probably just set it up so it's 4 off, 2 on in HLT, 2 on in BK or 4 on. I don't see any reason to separate the ones inside of each vessel, unless you could only fit one high up and one down low so that you could only use one per kettle when the water/wort level was low. I guess that could happen.

Anyway, stop tempting me! I think Kal's idea of putting two in the HLT at least is a pretty good idea.

It might be a bit difficult to get two elements in there side by side. You definitely don't want one at a higher level than another one if you're doing HERMS, since that will just add more necessary water to the HLT to keep the HERMS coil covered. With a 50' 1/2" HERMS coil in my pot, I need about 18 gallons of water in there to keep the HERMS coil covered.

I guess it all matters on the size and shape of the elements and the size of the HLT vessel.

 

[Bensiff]

I didn't go 50amp to save money as there is definite cost increases in doing so. If I build another panel I will go 50 amp. I would also run the bk with an ssvr and pot as there is no need for the pid. I don't have an estop, just a main power button. I have an auber timer but I don't really ever use it, I use my phone instead as I'm often doing multiple things around the house while brewing and I don't like having to go to the garage to check the time. An alarm on the HLT and BK are good, again I do other things while brewing so knowing the strike water is to temp saves time and knowing I'm close to boil saves the boil over. I'm also looking at adding a float switch to my HLT as I have once dry fired the element while sparging, it's actually pretty easy to forget to flip the element switch.

 

[jeffmeh]

I think you'd probably just set it up so it's 4 off, 2 on in HLT, 2 on in BK or 4 on. I don't see any reason to separate the ones inside of each vessel, unless you could only fit one high up and one down low so that you could only use one per kettle when the water/wort level was low. I guess that could happen.

Anyway, stop tempting me! I think Kal's idea of putting two in the HLT at least is a pretty good idea.

The 1 on in each capability allows you do back-to-back batches as well.

 

[kal]

It might be a bit difficult to get two elements in there side by side.

Shouldn't be an issue. They're very bendy if you need to bend them.

I'm also looking at adding a float switch to my HLT as I have once dry fired the element while sparging, it's actually pretty easy to forget to flip the element switch.

Simply turn off the HLT element when you start sparging. Problem solved and it's actually BETTER as you'll reduce the chance of astringency because the temp will drop as the pH of the mash goes up and the SG goes down. (tannin extraction is caused by higher temp / higher pH / lower SG).

Kal

 

[Bensiff]

@kal I know it's simple in theory to remember. But I have done it just the same as I got distracted changing valves over. I don't drink when I brew so it was just a moment of inattention. I see it as similar in thought to having the safe start interlock. It's simple to make sure the switches are in the right position but the added protection is a nice feature to protect from a momentary lapse of attention.

 

[stickyfinger]

I would also run the bk with an ssvr and pot as there is no need for the pid. ... An alarm on the HLT and BK are good, again I do other things while brewing so knowing the strike water is to temp saves time and knowing I'm close to boil saves the boil over.

You need the PID to have a BK alarm, right? I doubt the SSVR setup would be much less than just getting a PID.

 

[stickyfinger]

The 1 on in each capability allows you do back-to-back batches as well.

True. I don't know if I could do that. I only have 3 fermentation chambers. The day starts getting kind of long and tiring doing back to back batches too. I've done a few with my natural gas setup, and I usually am asking myself why I wanted to do that.

 

[stickyfinger]

I guess it makes sense to just do 50A if possible, unless you know that you'll never do back to back batches and if you know that you have plenty of other stuff do do while a full pot of HLT water is heating. I guess you could put in higher amperage components and wiring into the 30A panel and adapt it over more easily to 50A later maybe? But, you'd have to replace all of the receptacles and breakers in the system, right?

Is there anyone who is satisfied with a 30A setup!

 

[LandoLincoln]

I guess it makes sense to just do 50A if possible, unless you know that you'll never do back to back batches and if you know that you have plenty of other stuff do do while a full pot of HLT water is heating. I guess you could put in higher amperage components and wiring into the 30A panel and adapt it over more easily to 50A later maybe? But, you'd have to replace all of the receptacles and breakers in the system, right?

Is there anyone who is satisfied with a 30A setup!

I can't comment on 30a panels, since I've never owned one.

If you have existing wiring that only allows a 30a system, then yeah, it would be prudent to take a serious look at a 30a system. But if you're starting fresh, the cost difference isn't that great between a 30a panel and a 50a panel, if you're building your own panel.

 

[LandoLincoln]

But to answer your question...

I could hook my control panel designed for 50a to a 30a receptacle and it would work fine, provided I didn't ever turn on both elements at the same time.