Electrian dad says GCFI is pointless?

[Randar]

and the frequency of the current become very close to your hearts frequency and stops it from beating.

AC electrocution causes convulsive muscle contractions and this is the violent shake of the electric chair you may have seen and can stress the heart into failure. This is true. It is the cyclical violent contraction that causes the damage, though, and the strength of this contraction is dependent on the power in the load flowing through the body. For 110v AC (we don't have true 120V) a 30 amp load will be roughly 3300W of power. At 220v this same 3300W of power is really just 15A. So while people say "amps is what kills ya" or "high voltage kills ya", it is the load (read watts of power) that kills ya.

For DC current this is slightly different. There is no peak-to-peak cycling of the voltage and therefore DC current will not cause the convulsive electrocution. You'll just be frozen with a permanent muscle contraction. Also, while you may survive a shock from DC current, it also cause electrolysis of the fluids in your body which will release toxic compounds and you may die several hours later from blood poisoning.



In the end, there are many old adages or saying that apply here and all should be equally heeded. If you're the kind of person that doesn't wear a seatbelt or a helmet on your motorcycle, by all means, you're welcome to do as you please.

But, if you have kids, pets, spouses, roomates that could possibly be affected, God forbid something happens to them that could have been prevented by a small dose of "cautious engineering"...

It's not scare tactics, it's reality.

 

[mhermetz]

It has nothing to do with being macho. It has everything to do with knowledge of the system I am working on.

This.


As far as I know everything close to the kettle will be completely sealed within a water proof box. From there we are running cable approx 15 to the panel... more than enough distance from the kettle to warrant any kind of spillage concern.

It kind of like boiling water in the kitchen and being afraid you'll splash someone in the next room over. Short of throwing it at him, it's impossible.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

AC electrocution causes convulsive muscle contractions and this is the violent shake of the electric chair you may have seen and can stress the heart into failure. This is true. It is the cyclical violent contraction that causes the damage, though, and the strength of this contraction is dependent on the power in the load flowing through the body. For 110v AC (we don't have true 120V) a 30 amp load will be roughly 3300W of power. At 220v this same 3300W of power is really just 15A. So while people say "amps is what kills ya" or "high voltage kills ya", it is the load (read watts of power) that kills ya.

Ahhh... I knew it was something like that but couldn't remember the specifics. It is 6 years now since I ran the numbers and learned the theory.

Your points are good. There is no good argument against putting in the interrupt, so why wouldn't you?

 

[Randar]

Do have electrical expertise? What is your job? I not looking for a pissing contest. I just wonder. All of my line voltage is in a sealed nema box. The only connections that could be exposed to water is my control panel. It only has 12v dc very low amperage draw. The 12v power supply 2.5 amps is in the sealed nema box. My elements are covered with drilled out plumbing caps and potted with jbweld.

As I said, if you wish to take chances on your design being impervious to any element of failure and take the responsibility on your shoulders, go right ahead. Nobody on here is going to stop you.

But the advice you seem to be giving is advice I would never give a single person. "Skip the tiny cost of peace of mind and protection against failure because there is no way anything can go wrong".

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about internet expertise. I could say I run the electrical engineering division of NASA and it wouldn't matter on the internet.

In the end, you're going to save what, $15 or even $30 by foregoing GFCI after spending hundreds, if not thousands on your brew equipment and setup?

Tell me that makes sense.

 

[Brewmoor]

As I said, if you wish to take chances on your design being impervious to any element of failure and take the responsibility on your shoulders, go right ahead. Nobody on here is going to stop you.

But the advice you seem to be giving is advice I would never give a single person. "Skip the tiny cost of peace of mind and protection against failure because there is no way anything can go wrong".

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about internet expertise. I could say I run the electrical engineering division of NASA and it wouldn't matter on the internet.

In the end, you're going to save what, $15 or even $30 by foregoing GFCI after spending hundreds, if not thousands on your brew equipment and setup?

Tell me that makes sense.

If that were the case we would not be having this conversation. GFCI breaker for my panel. 30amp is $89.

Also I never gave any advice. I just said I agree with others statements. I also stated that I have a GFCI circuit on my system.

 

[Randar]

This.


As far as I know everything close to the kettle will be completely sealed within a water proof box. From there we are running cable approx 15 to the panel... more than enough distance from the kettle to warrant any kind of spillage concern.

It kind of like boiling water in the kitchen and being afraid you'll splash someone in the next room over. Short of throwing it at him, it's impossible.

So nothing within the range of the kettle has the potential of failing? Corroded connection to the element and the shielding of element connection is also heat and water proof (boiling water, mind you)?

 

[Hermit]

It's not scare tactics, it's reality.

Reminded me of Edger Allen Poe's "Angel of the Odd". As I recall it was about people dying in all fashion of 'strange' ways. A long time ago a fireman told me that professional fire fighting was THE most dangerous line of work. Volunteers had a much lower mortality rate because they had more fear.

 

[shortyjacobs]

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

What Randar is saying is that you cannot control what is out of your control. He is right, even if his delivery was a bit grating.

 

[Brewmoor]

I get that. I just know first hand from jobs I worked on that there are not GFCI in the likely places you would think.

Commercial kitchens, boiler rooms, snow melt systems, and few others I have seen around here. The ideas are sound. Be Safe. The delivery is like putting a hockey uniform on to play tennis. It is just not always needed.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I thought current NEC was gfci for any kitchen or bathroom, including range and oven connections (but not on fridges)???

 

[Randar]

What Randar is saying is that you cannot control what is out of your control. He is right, even if his delivery was a bit grating.

Did not mean to be grating, but sometimes the people most confident in their abilities believe that Murphy's Law doesn't apply to them or that the components of their build are impervious to failure.

I've watched union electricians zap themselves good and have met too many carpenters and contractors missing fingertips to read this kind of stuff and let it pass. I watched a guy get half his scalp ripped off because he had worked with a certain machine for 20 years with no issue, but he left his pony tail out of his hair net and guess what, sucked into rollers flying by at 10,000 rpm.

It is kind of second nature, though, to believe that you have done something 10,000 times and never had any failure or reason to believe that something bad would happen the 10,001st time you do something.

Love the firefighter analogy in the previous post.

 

[Hermit]

I thought current NEC was gfci for any kitchen or bathroom, including range and oven connections (but not on fridges)???

I had to tell a guy that had a gas range plugged into one to ditch the thing. It kept blowing when he tried to use the oven but it worked fine on a regular outlet. Brand new range, no sign of any leakage current. It just would blow after the bake igniter was on for about 5 minutes. I've never seen an electric range on one.

I've been surprised to not see more people talking about problems with them because they have caused me grief as an appliance repairman. Same with a washing machine. Of course their the motor might have tripped it while it built up a field as it started. More going in than coming out?

 

[Randar]

I thought current NEC was gfci for any kitchen or bathroom, including range and oven connections (but not on fridges)???

It is absolutely a code requirement for commercial kitchen installations. I believe it only came into being in the last 10 years or so, though...

yep, here is a link saying 2002 is when the code changed...
http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/electric_code_basics_3/

 

[Randar]

I had to tell a guy that had a gas range plugged into one to ditch the thing. It kept blowing when he tried to use the oven but it worked fine on a regular outlet. Brand new range, no sign of any leakage current. It just would blow after the bake igniter was on for about 5 minutes. I've never seen an electric range on one.

I've been surprised to not see more people talking about problems with them because they have caused me grief as an appliance repairman. Same with a washing machine. Of course their the motor might have tripped it while it built up a field as it started. More going in than coming out?

Are you certain the GCFI was properly installed? Otherwise your manufacturer has a design defect. Also, GFCI outlet itself could have been damaged or faulty. I have seen that happen if it was wired incorrectly at first or the ground path is not correctly installed.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

OK. I am not an electrician but I was pretty sure about that and surprised to hear the contrary.

 

[Randar]

OK. I am not an electrician but I was pretty sure about that and surprised to hear the contrary.

I don't want to mislead anyone here, so I will make it clear that I am not a licensed electrical contractor either. But, I have a degree in EE and have done enough to know better than to bypass safety measures for the reasons being given in this thread.

And the bottom line is you should ask yourself if you're willing to bet yours and others lives on it. If not, spend the few bucks and move on.

 

[Hermit]

Are you certain the GCFI was properly installed? Otherwise your manufacturer has a design defect. Also, GFCI outlet itself could have been damaged or faulty. I have seen that happen if it was wired incorrectly at first or the ground path is not correctly installed.

My duties ended at the end of the cord on the unit. The guy with the stove claimed it was the second one. Of course customers lied all the time so who knows. Those and some kind of energy saver that reduced voltage to 70% claiming once a motor was started it didn't need as much power. Well, yeah, that is why most major appliance motors have start windings..... You can't just arbitrarily reduce the running voltage 70% once it is running. Well, you can but that is another story.......

 

[Photopilot]

I am sure as a lifelong electrician your dad has been zapped a time or two and thinks nothing of it. So why bother with a GFCI anyways.

 

[Brewmoor]

You do for small apliance circuits and recepticles. Dedicated appliances like a range does not need one. Well at least when I a was still a working electrician.

Hard wired appliances like water heaters and other wet location hard wired devices usually are not required to.

 

[Randar]

I am sure as a lifelong electrician your dad has been zapped a time or two and thinks nothing of it. So why bother with a GFCI anyways.

Yep, and lucky for him he was never standing in a puddle of spilled wort, chilling water, or stirring his wort with a metal spoon!

 

[Photopilot]

It is absolutely a code requirement for commercial kitchen installations. I believe it only came into being in the last 10 years or so, though...

yep, here is a link saying 2002 is when the code changed...
http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/electric_code_basics_3/

I wired my own house in 97 and it was code then. At least in Wyoming, which is not exactly cutting edge. Example: they let me wire my own house, with just a copy of electrical work for dummies as my only source.

 

[Brewmoor]

I wired my own house in 07 and it was code then. At least in Wyoming, which is not exactly cutting edge. Example: they let me wire my own house, with just a copy of electrical work for dummies as my only source.

A home owner by law has to be given a permit to do his own work. Though he still has to pass code inspections. That is a national rule.

07 code had you put a GFCI on your stove?

 

[Randar]

You do for small apliance circuits and recepticles. Dedicated appliances like a range does not need one. Well at least when I a was still a working electrician.

Hard wired appliances like water heaters and other wet location hard wired devices usually are not required to.

Correct. see below for residential kitchen:

Per 210.8(A)(6), GFCI protection is required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles that serve kitchen countertop surfaces in a dwelling unit (Fig. 1 on page 54). GFCI protection is not required for receptacles serving appliances like dishwashers, or convenience receptacles that do not supply countertop surfaces. Receptacles installed within 6 ft of the outside edge of a wet bar sink must also be GFCI-protected [210.8(A)(7)]. However, GFCI protection is not required for receptacles not intended to serve wet bar countertop surfaces, such as refrigerators, ice makers, water heaters, or convenience receptacles that do not supply counter-top surfaces.



in my interpretation, the intent of the code in both residential and commercial settings is to protect people that will come in contact or dynamically use outlets within cord range of water sources and also to allow you to keep cost down by not going to those lengths in areas that are not usually accessible or are not at risk of being a wet area (crawl spaces and garages are required to be GFCI, for example)...

But to run up to 3000-7000W through an electric heating element with intend of dealing with gallons of water and risk of spillage, IMO you're taking your life into your (or in the case of this thread, your father's) hand's to bypass a simple and inexpensive safety measure.

 

[Randar]

A home owner by law has to be given a permit to do his own work. Though he still has to pass code inspections. That is a national rule.

07 code had you put a GFCI on your stove?

Permits are by municipality, but "ve personally never been in an area that didn't require a permit and inspection for plumbing and electrical work.

Not sure the official interpretation, but is a stove a "countertop surface?" Seems to indicate it has to be GFCI on that basis. Seems overkill for a gas powered stove with only the ignition being electric, for example.

 

[IrregularPulse]

IMO you're taking your life into your (or in the case of this thread, your father's) hand's to bypass a simple and inexpensive safety measure.

It's actually his father taken his own and his sons lives. The OP wanted the protection. His father doing the work doesn't.

Permits are by municipality, but "ve personally never been in an area that didn't require a permit and inspection for plumbing and electrical work.

Not sure the official interpretation, but is a stove a "countertop surface?" Seems to indicate it has to be GFCI on that basis. Seems overkill for a gas powered stove with only the ignition being electric, for example.

I understood it as basically, any outlet that is mounted above a counter top for appliances needs the GFCI protection.

 

[Photopilot]

A home owner by law has to be given a permit to do his own work. Though he still has to pass code inspections. That is a national rule.

07 code had you put a GFCI on your stove?

Woops I meant the other 7. I wired my house in 97. GFCIs were required in Kitchen and bathroom outlets only then.

 

[mhermetz]

welp.... this whole debate was a waste of time.

I talked with him when I got home from work. The reason he said it's,"Unnecessary" and "pointless" is because ,"we already have one sitting in the garage"... lol. He thought I was asking whether we needed to buy one or not... not whether it was required for the setup.

yeah my dad, the mad scientist, tends to think he explains things fully in his head but then doesn't actually mention it. He reminds me of that scientist from Fringe...kind of look alike too.

when I explained the mix up, he did state the likely hood of something going wrong was very unlikely. He then explained the house fire he inspected 5 years ago was unexpected but try explaining that to the parents that lost 2 kids.

so yeah... In GOOD news! I came home to my Blingmann sitting in the living room! a whole 2 weeks early!! Go homebrew-supplies.com!

Really hoping I have this ready for my next brew this weekend! So pumped.

 

[Photopilot]

It's actually his father taken his own and his sons lives. The OP wanted the protection. His father doing the work doesn't.

Maybe the father is the benificiary of his life insurance.

"Dad, why do you wipe your fingerprints off your work?"

 

[shortyjacobs]

welp.... this whole debate was a waste of time.

I talked with him when I got home from work. The reason he said it's,"Unnecessary" and "pointless" is because ,"we already have one sitting in the garage"... lol. He thought I was asking whether we needed to buy one or not... not whether it was required for the setup.

LOL! 6 pages of wiener measuring and name calling, and it all ends in "oops".

Kind of anticlimactic...I wanted your dad to come in hurling lightning bolts and beating down naysayers...