Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
I thought current NEC was gfci for any kitchen or bathroom, including range and oven connections (but not on fridges)???
What Randar is saying is that you cannot control what is out of your control. He is right, even if his delivery was a bit grating.
I thought current NEC was gfci for any kitchen or bathroom, including range and oven connections (but not on fridges)???
I thought current NEC was gfci for any kitchen or bathroom, including range and oven connections (but not on fridges)???
I had to tell a guy that had a gas range plugged into one to ditch the thing. It kept blowing when he tried to use the oven but it worked fine on a regular outlet. Brand new range, no sign of any leakage current. It just would blow after the bake igniter was on for about 5 minutes. I've never seen an electric range on one.
I've been surprised to not see more people talking about problems with them because they have caused me grief as an appliance repairman. Same with a washing machine. Of course their the motor might have tripped it while it built up a field as it started. More going in than coming out?
OK. I am not an electrician but I was pretty sure about that and surprised to hear the contrary.
Are you certain the GCFI was properly installed? Otherwise your manufacturer has a design defect. Also, GFCI outlet itself could have been damaged or faulty. I have seen that happen if it was wired incorrectly at first or the ground path is not correctly installed.
I am sure as a lifelong electrician your dad has been zapped a time or two and thinks nothing of it. So why bother with a GFCI anyways.
It is absolutely a code requirement for commercial kitchen installations. I believe it only came into being in the last 10 years or so, though...
yep, here is a link saying 2002 is when the code changed...
http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/electric_code_basics_3/
I wired my own house in 07 and it was code then. At least in Wyoming, which is not exactly cutting edge. Example: they let me wire my own house, with just a copy of electrical work for dummies as my only source.
You do for small apliance circuits and recepticles. Dedicated appliances like a range does not need one. Well at least when I a was still a working electrician.
Hard wired appliances like water heaters and other wet location hard wired devices usually are not required to.
A home owner by law has to be given a permit to do his own work. Though he still has to pass code inspections. That is a national rule.
07 code had you put a GFCI on your stove?
It's actually his father taken his own and his sons lives. The OP wanted the protection. His father doing the work doesn't.IMO you're taking your life into your (or in the case of this thread, your father's) hand's to bypass a simple and inexpensive safety measure.
Permits are by municipality, but "ve personally never been in an area that didn't require a permit and inspection for plumbing and electrical work.
Not sure the official interpretation, but is a stove a "countertop surface?" Seems to indicate it has to be GFCI on that basis. Seems overkill for a gas powered stove with only the ignition being electric, for example.
A home owner by law has to be given a permit to do his own work. Though he still has to pass code inspections. That is a national rule.
07 code had you put a GFCI on your stove?
It's actually his father taken his own and his sons lives. The OP wanted the protection. His father doing the work doesn't.
welp.... this whole debate was a waste of time.
I talked with him when I got home from work. The reason he said it's,"Unnecessary" and "pointless" is because ,"we already have one sitting in the garage"... lol. He thought I was asking whether we needed to buy one or not... not whether it was required for the setup.
<-- appalled at how many jumped on the "f*** the safety crap" bandwagon. Turns out the wagon didn't have wheels. Nice.
welp.... this whole debate was a waste of time.
I talked with him when I got home from work. The reason he said it's,"Unnecessary" and "pointless" is because ,"we already have one sitting in the garage"... lol. He thought I was asking whether we needed to buy one or not... not whether it was required for the setup.
yeah my dad, the mad scientist, tends to think he explains things fully in his head but then doesn't actually mention it. He reminds me of that scientist from Fringe...kind of look alike too.
when I explained the mix up, he did state the likely hood of something going wrong was very unlikely. He then explained the house fire he inspected 5 years ago was unexpected but try explaining that to the parents that lost 2 kids.
so yeah... In GOOD news! I came home to my Blingmann sitting in the living room! a whole 2 weeks early!! Go homebrew-supplies.com!
Really hoping I have this ready for my next brew this weekend! So pumped.
If you are feeling brave (you have the GFCI now, afterall) reach down in the cold water and touch your element while it is on. I've done this with my 5500W without a trip to the hospital.
uuuh... C'est What?
that just seems mad....mad like starting a topic about not using a GFCI when you just misunderstood someone....craziness.
the bracket idea is good....actually I just had an idea... Use a couple 3/8 copper 90's to create a sort of hook so i can hang over the lip of the kettle.
From Wescoatt, Mike <[email protected]>
A book that has become a sort of GFCI bible to us in our workplace and training is "Overcurrents and Undercurrents" by Earl W Roberts, Mystic Publications, 10 Mason's Island Road, CT, 1996, 860.536.2616. This book has allowed us to use Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) devices in the best way possible in our wet theatrical/pool/commercial/industrial/special applications environment that we work in that the NEC has not covered in some cases. This book has allowed us to see the theory behind GFCI devices and adopt rules and regulations that lead to the safest environment possible for our technicians, artists, scuba divers, and the general public.
I agree with your dad on the 240v elements. You need a neutral to trip a GFCI and your elements don't have one!
welp.... this whole debate was a waste of time.
I talked with him when I got home from work. The reason he said it's,"Unnecessary" and "pointless" is because ,"we already have one sitting in the garage"... lol. He thought I was asking whether we needed to buy one or not... not whether it was required for the setup.
yeah my dad, the mad scientist, tends to think he explains things fully in his head but then doesn't actually mention it. He reminds me of that scientist from Fringe...kind of look alike too.
when I explained the mix up, he did state the likely hood of something going wrong was very unlikely. He then explained the house fire he inspected 5 years ago was unexpected but try explaining that to the parents that lost 2 kids.
so yeah... In GOOD news! I came home to my Blingmann sitting in the living room! a whole 2 weeks early!! Go homebrew-supplies.com!
Really hoping I have this ready for my next brew this weekend! So pumped.
Well that solves your moral dilemma. I would not say the thread was a waste of time. It brought a bunch of good info on both sides of the argument.
Him saying that, does not definitively put an end to the debate. We are building...well... essentially commercial appliances with these rigs. Do they absolutely need a GFCI? Would NEC cover something like this? What would the UL want if this were a commercial product? I am not convinced a rule or code would require it. I am sure it would be required to have a disconnect within a certain distance from the unit. Like a air conditioning unit. But maybe it would require a disconnect and a GFCI like a hottub.
Excellent point for commercial and professional electricians. IMO, for the majority of the readers and weekend warriors on boards like this the threshold should be lower to the "how much money and effort are you looking to save if the tradeoff is risking your life?"
Maybe I am giving some people too much credit in some cases and too little in others, but I just feel in a place like this filled with hackers and slashers it is extremely dangerous to have a professional-level discussion, as only a fraction of the work is going to be "professional quality" in all likelihood and overkill is probably the best recommendation.
Hell, guys here build brew stands out of 2"x2"x.120" stainless steel! WTF are we doing talking about cutting the cost of a GFCI?
Father, the electrician, seems to think it will take a long time to boil. In either case he also seems to think using a GCFI is pointless.
Disagree. There are many situations where the operator completes a circuit from the hot 240VAC to earth gnd.
I've never run across a 240VAC single phase leg to ground before please explain this one it's new to me being a 29 year IBEW member? Possible with 480 VAC single phase with one or the other legs going to ground yes then you would have a 240VAC voltage potential to ground.
L1 & L2 thru your body with single phase I can agree with having a 240 VAC shock potential but not to ground.
Not to start a pissing war just a statement and a correction added, i'm out of here on this thread.
Hell, guys here build brew stands out of 2"x2"x.120" stainless steel! WTF are we doing talking about cutting the cost of a GFCI?
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