eHerms - low efficiency

[bornandraisedlv]

I am on my third batch now running my new eHerms set up and I’m having some efficiency issues that google searching is not helping me figure out.

I will use my most current brew as a baseline.

9lb 12oz Belgian 2 row Pilsner
2lb 4oz Munich Light Malt

Mashed in with 3.5 gals of water at 163° to hit my mash temp of 150°.

Recirced through my eherms for 75 mins. Pulled first runnings. Fly sparged with 168° water for about 65 mins until I had 7.5 gallons of wort.

Starting gravity was 1.040 and the target was 1.048, according to BeerSmith. That’s an 8 point difference, so not a small miss.

The only things I can think of is that my grain is not milled correctly. I’ve been purchasing and milling at the local NB shop and the crush looks fine to me.

Only other thing I can think is I have a profile setting wrong in BeerSmith and my water volume is off or??

I’m thinking I should have just stuck to the 1.25 qts of water per pound of grain which would have been another half gallon of water plus a tad.

Can being short 1/2 gallon of water effect efficiency that much? Plus there is about 1/2 a gallon of volume in my 50’ herms coil. So maybe actually closer to a gallon short?

It’s a noob question I know by my google skills are lacking today....

 

[cod3ck]

I had a similar issue not too long ago... I used to shop at a brew store by where I worked, I then switched jobs and shop at a place close to home.

At the old place I’d double crush (BIAB) and get mid 70’s easy. For this new shop I barely cleared 60% efficiency with the same double crush and brew process!

I was lucky enough to have a mill on hand that I never bothered to use when my efficiency was “decent”. I now crush my own (still buying from the new shop) and clear over 80% brew house efficiency no problems.

It’s been tested by lots of people, but the trick seems to be the tighter you can crush without getting a stuck mash, the better.

Not sure if it’s true, but I also remember hearing that brew shops generally set the gap on their mills wider since it increases the longevity of the mill. Another reason is for the average joe that wants to make their first batch of all grain, the user experience is WAY worse if they get a stuck mash instead of missing a few points on their expected ABV...

Hope this helps! [emoji482]

 

[harry_the_face]

Have you all grain brewed before using your eHERMS?
When you say "starting gravity" when did you take this measurement and how? Before or after the boil and did you use a hydrometer or something else?

What was your final batch volume supposed to be and did you hit that volume? Example: was this a 5 gal batch after boil or a 6 gal?

What temp did you mash at?

It could be the grain mill, could be water ph, or it could be your process. We need more details to help.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Have you all grain brewed before using your eHERMS? .

Yes but I am still new to all grain, about 10 batches. I have been doing partial grain/extract for about 2 years.

.

When you say "starting gravity" when did you take this measurement and how? Before or after the boil and did you use a hydrometer or something else?

This was taken after I sparged to get my full 7.5 starting volume, I used a hydrometer at 60°, so preboil full volume.

What was your final batch volume supposed to be and did you hit that volume? Example: was this a 5 gal batch after boil or a 6 gal? .

It was a 5.5 final volume and I about hit it perfectly at 5.45 gallons.

What temp did you mash at? .

150° controlled with a bayite controller. Probe was put into the fly arm. So I was measuring the temp of the wort coming out of the herms coil to control my element.

It could be the grain mill, could be water ph, or it could be your process. We need more details to help.

I am positive my process needs some work, but that’s the fun of it all. Learning and dialing in to get some consistency.

As for water, I don’t even want to start looking that that until I feel confident in my physical process. Once I feel good about that I will look into water chemistry.

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[Smellyglove]

For a constant recirculation system you need to pay good attention to your crush. You'd want as much intact husks as possible, but have a good crush of the kernel. And you want a good flow, and unobstructed flow. Not just slamming the pump and getting an obstructed flow. Compacting of the grainbed will in many cased yield lower numbers.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

For a constant recirculation system you need to pay good attention to your crush. You'd want as much intact husks as possible, but have a good crush of the kernel. And you want a good flow, and unobstructed flow. Not just slamming the pump and getting an obstructed flow. Compacting of the grainbed will in many cased yield lower numbers.

I feel this may have been an issue for about half my mash. I think I’m going to change my sparge arm set up so that I’m getting a good flow over the entire grain bed at a slower rate.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Did you only miss your gravity on this brew? It could also just be your new eherms setup isn't as efficient as your old setup. I would concentrate on consistency over efficiency

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Did you only miss your gravity on this brew? It could also just be your new eherms setup isn't as efficient as your old setup. I would concentrate on consistency over efficiency

Yeah for the most part. I think it might be that I was recircing too fast and that my sparge arm isn’t centered on my tun so was only spraying on about half to 2/3 the grain, at least at the top. Will start with sparge arm and go from there.

 

[Smellyglove]

I feel this may have been an issue for about half my mash. I think I’m going to change my sparge arm set up so that I’m getting a good flow over the entire grain bed at a slower rate.

you do have a restricting valve on the output of your pump?

 

[bornandraisedlv]

you do have a restricting valve on the output of your pump?

Yes and the in and out of my mash tun. I just used the valve on my pump return to slow the flow down.

 

[Smellyglove]

Yes and the in and out of my mash tun. I just used the valve on my pump return to slow the flow down.

Try dialing back your pump so the mash never will go above the feeling of stirring a pasta. And don't start the pump until 10-15 minutes in. Let the grain bed settle naturally as good as it can, before you start the pump. This will help a lot to get a good flow and clean wort.

 

[Jag75]

Try dialing back your pump so the mash never will go above the feeling of stirring a pasta. And don't start the pump until 10-15 minutes in. Let the grain bed settle naturally as good as it can, before you start the pump. This will help a lot to get a good flow and clean wort.

Wouldn't keeping the pump off for that long spike the temp too high?

 

[harry_the_face]

Yes but I am still new to all grain, about 10 batches. I have been doing partial grain/extract for about 2 years.

.

This was taken after I sparged to get my full 7.5 starting volume, I used a hydrometer at 60°, so preboil full volume.



It was a 5.5 final volume and I about hit it perfectly at 5.45 gallons.



150° controlled with a bayite controller. Probe was put into the fly arm. So I was measuring the temp of the wort coming out of the herms coil to control my element.



I am positive my process needs some work, but that’s the fun of it all. Learning and dialing in to get some consistency.

As for water, I don’t even want to start looking that that until I feel confident in my physical process. Once I feel good about that I will look into water chemistry.

Thanks for any suggestions!

So SG is taken at the start of Fermentation and FG at the end of Fermentation. So when you say your starting gravity was low I just want to make sure your recipe says 1.048 full boil gravity and not SG? If you are talking about SG then pre-boil gravity will be lower because it will boil off some water.

Also did you calculate the temperature correction for the temp of the wort when you got the 1.040 reading or did you chill the wort to 60 deg before taking the reading?

If you did not do temp correction then you way over shot because if the wort was at 170F deg then the gravity would be 1.067.

I hear you on the water thing I just started playing with water chemistry after 6 years. I would recommend at least taking the pH of your mash to make sure it is in the window.

Also I would take Temps of the mash not just the outlet of the hERMS. The mash may be much higher lower based on how insulated your mash tun is.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

So SG is taken at the start of Fermentation and FG at the end of Fermentation. So when you say your starting gravity was low I just want to make sure your recipe says 1.048 full boil gravity and not SG? If you are talking about SG then pre-boil gravity will be lower because it will boil off some water.

Sorry, yes 1.048 pre boil gravity was the target.

Also did you calculate the temperature correction for the temp of the wort when you got the 1.040 reading or did you chill the wort to 60 deg before taking the reading?

I chilled my wort down to 60° and then did the reading.

If you did not do temp correction then you way over shot because if the wort was at 170F deg then the gravity would be 1.067.

I hear you on the water thing I just started playing with water chemistry after 6 years. I would recommend at least taking the pH of your mash to make sure it is in the window.

Also I would take Temps of the mash not just the outlet of the hERMS. The mash may be much higher lower based on how insulated your mash tun is.

I think you might be onto something with my temp location. As I remember looking at my mash tun thermometer and t was at about 145° and not 150°. My mash tun is 10g megapot wrapped in reflectix. Hold temps pretty well.

Again it might not help with temps if my sparge arm isn’t as effective as it should be. Being that half of what comes out goes down the wall of the kettle, just doesn’t seem even to me.

 

[Smellyglove]

Wouldn't keeping the pump off for that long spike the temp too high?

Don't use any heating for this period. With a well insulated mash tun and correct strike temp it shouldn't matter much.

 

[augiedoggy]

I feel this may have been an issue for about half my mash. I think I’m going to change my sparge arm set up so that I’m getting a good flow over the entire grain bed at a slower rate.

sparge arm shouldnt really matter, there should be a layer of liquid covering the top of your grainbed and the arm should be depositing into that. Many including myself have ditched the sparge arm in favor of a piece of silicone hose.
I'll second the lower flow comment, you get channeling when you try to push the flow too fast. I recirculate at 1.5-1.8 gpm on my flowmeter and get around 91% eff this way.

IMO the mash should catch up to the herms output. focusing on trying to adjust at the mash is impossible due to time delays and such.
if flow is too high it might not ever be even due to channeling. as smelly glove indicated the temp shouldnt be dropping that fast.

When you say you used a bayite temp controller, do you mean the hysterisis type for controlling fridges and such? if so did you change the compressor delay to switch quickly to be able to maintain the consistent temp? And you are aware this will very likely cause the mechanical contacts to fail in the controller right? For the quick on off switching required you ideally want SSR switching to prevent fused or burnt contacts in the relay.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

sparge arm shouldnt really matter, there should be a layer of liquid covering the top of your grainbed and the arm should be depositing into that. Many including myself have ditched the sparge arm in favor of a piece of silicone hose.
I'll second the lower flow comment, you get channeling when you try to push the flow too fast. I recirculate at 1.5-1.8 gpm on my flowmeter and get around 91% eff this way.

I might switch to the hose sparge, was my original plan and then I had an extra length of stainless with a 90° in it and put one the the little plastic sparge sprayers on it.

As for flow, any suggestions on a cheap flow meter? Everything I saw was right around the $100 mark.

IMO the mash should catch up to the herms output. focusing on trying to adjust at the mash is impossible due to time delays and such.
if flow is too high it might not ever be even due to channeling. as smelly glove indicated the temp shouldnt be dropping that fast.

This was my though process as well. Which is why I was measuring temp out of the herms. Maybe I will run my inkbird as a second source of temp in the mash and see what the difference is.

When you say you used a bayite temp controller, do you mean the hysterisis type for controlling fridges and such? if so did you change the compressor delay to switch quickly to be able to maintain the consistent temp? And you are aware this will very likely cause the mechanical contacts to fail in the controller right? For the quick on off switching required you ideally want SSR switching to prevent fused or burnt contacts in the relay.

It is the hysteresis type I think, it’s the BTC211. I don’t see it being a huge issue as it only had to kick on 5-6 times in a 75 min mash. I did not adjust the compressor delay at all as it was not needed.

 

[augiedoggy]

It is the hysteresis type I think, it’s the BTC211. I don’t see it being a huge issue as it only had to kick on 5-6 times in a 75 min mash. I did not adjust the compressor delay at all as it was not needed.

I dont see how it could keep a consistent mash temp only kicking on an off 5 or 6 times in 75 minutes unless you had it set to allow for a large swing in mash temp. My rims sometimes kicks on and off multiple times a second to maintain a steady temp. a few degree makes a large difference in the beer and attenuation. this very well could be part of your issue.

Just the beer traveling through the pump and hoses will cool it a couple degrees each pass without the herms reheating it to the exact desired output temp likewise the wort will bring down the herms water quicker and if you dont have a pump or something keeping the water in your herms kettle stired up and mixed temps will be all over the place possibly reading different around the coils than where the temp readout is which can cause swings also.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

I dont see how it could keep a consistent mash temp only kicking on an off 5 or 6 times in 75 minutes unless you had it set to allow for a large swing in mash temp my rims sometimes kicks on and off multiple times a second to maintain a steady temp.

[/QUOTE]

Was set to allow a 1° swing in temperature. Maybe it went on more than that but it was not excessive.

I will pay closer attention to this on my next brew.

 

[augiedoggy]

Was set to allow a 1° swing in temperature. Maybe it went on more than that but it was not excessive.

I will pay closer attention to this on my next brew.[/QUOTE]
I still think something is off here.. I used to use a cooler mash tun with a herms and even it turned on and off multiple times a minute to maintain temps.

 

[Mybuddypete]

I recirculate at 1.5-1.8 gpm on my flowmeter and get around 91% eff this way.

Would you mind sharing a link for that flow meter? Thanks in advance.

 

[augiedoggy]

Would you mind sharing a link for that flow meter? Thanks in advance.

I have one of these and a polycarbonate one which is better.. they both work fine but this one developed tiny microcracks in the acrylic which as just cosmetic really from the high cleaning temps
http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338413729&icep_item=161813217149

 

[BrewKaiser]

Getting back to grain crush: to help facilitate a finer crush while maintaining the integrity of the husk I recommend wetting your grains with 2% of the total grain weight with water just prior to milling.

I have temp sensors in both my MLT (about 1/3 way up from bottom) and on my HERMs coil MLT return (temp sensor after the ball valve). There is always a 2-3* difference between the two for the first 20-30 minutes of mash. Towards the end they differ by 1-2*. I shoot for the average of the two.

As said before, Mash PH is very important as well for efficiency.

I mash in with pump off. Once all dough balls are sorted, I crack the MLT return valve open and slowly open the MLT output. I then slowly open both up from there as needed watching flow and wort clarity. I never run either wide open.

 

[Smellyglove]

I don't fint mash pH to be very important to efficiency, but that might be me. I've not done way-off mashes (maybe before I didn't adjust?). I believe it's more "important" in a theoretical way, than in real life. If the numbers are wayy off, it's not just due to mash pH at least.

Wetting grains help, but it will also mess up the rollers to some point.

The key to getting a good crush (I've experimented a lot), is
#1 Know what a good crush for your system looks like
#2 If not wetting, you need to go slow, or on the mills where you can't choose the RPM, let as few grains onto the rollers as possible, it's the equivalent of going slow. The more you let on to the rollers, or go fast, you'll make powder. Then tighten the gap until you see a great majority of the husks are split way more than into half/half, if they are back off the gap.

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't fint mash pH to be very important to efficiency, but that might be me. I've not done way-off mashes (maybe before I didn't adjust?). I believe it's more "important" in a theoretical way, than in real life. If the numbers are wayy off, it's not just due to mash pH at least.

Wetting grains help, but it will also mess up the rollers to some point.

The key to getting a good crush (I've experimented a lot), is
#1 Know what a good crush for your system looks like
#2 If not wetting, you need to go slow, or on the mills where you can't choose the RPM, let as few grains onto the rollers as possible, it's the equivalent of going slow. The more you let on to the rollers, or go fast, you'll make powder. Then tighten the gap until you see a great majority of the husks are split way more than into half/half, if they are back off the gap.

I'll second this, Have two separate brewing systems (one at home and one at brewpub,) I realized quickly that different things work better with different setups.
due to the difference in false bottom systems, the fine .030 crush I use at home which works great and nets 91% avg eff wont work on the 3bbl system. we use a 3 roller mill at brewery and it needs a much wider gap for the 3/32 holes in the false bottom to work well with the re-circulation system I set up there. perhaps if I replace the false bottom which im working on I can increase efficiency from the 85% wee are averaging there. even then im getting a lot of grain pulling through the FB. we run the 3bbl recirc for example at 5gpm... my homebrew system never recircs higher than 1.8gpm with the small 15.5" false bottom to prevent channeling.

as far as wetting the grains, Ive never done it nor seen the need personally. but that doesnt mean it doesnt have merit for others.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Getting back to grain crush: to help facilitate a finer crush while maintaining the integrity of the husk I recommend wetting your grains with 2% of the total grain weight with water just prior to milling.

I have temp sensors in both my MLT (about 1/3 way up from bottom) and on my HERMs coil MLT return (temp sensor after the ball valve). There is always a 2-3* difference between the two for the first 20-30 minutes of mash. Towards the end they differ by 1-2*. I shoot for the average of the two.

As said before, Mash PH is very important as well for efficiency.

I mash in with pump off. Once all dough balls are sorted, I crack the MLT return valve open and slowly open the MLT output. I then slowly open both up from there as needed watching flow and wort clarity. I never run either wide open.

Not that it really matters but fwiw if your like me that temp offset annoyed the crap out of me. I now mill slightly wider than typical and condition which allows me to run my pumps full speed without any vacuum created on the grain bed. If I run them at full speed it only takes a few minutes until the mash output matched the hlt temp and the offset is no longer required. I also find it advantages this way as you don't have to monitor the flow rates at all to avoid a compacted grain bed/stuck sparge. Just add the grains when the hlt reached the desired mash temp , dump the grains in and turn the pumps on full blast. Within 5 mins the mash output matches the hlt and i can head out to do shopping or upstairs to do chores etc. Cheers

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Thanks for all of the pointers from everyone.

My take away from this is the following:

Have a cereal killer milk coming in the mail soon. Will crush my own grain so can eliminate/adjust at that level.

Change from my sparge arm to a hose. From what I’ve been seeing it looks like most people are just taking a random length of hose and letting it’s kind of ride the sides of their tun? This seems to me like it might create channeling down the side of the tun?

Monitor mash temps both in the mash and the mash output. I think I’m still going to keep the output as the control method for my element but I might adjust on the fly during my next brew.

I would also like to find an inexpensive flow meter like the one that augiedoggie posted the link for. That one is only rated for up to 159° so not sure about it. But I think I would like to try and keep my flow to that 1.5 a 1.8 gpm. Though this brings me back to mash temp and measuring the output temp with a slower rate of flow might not give me an accurate reading of actual mash temp. So I might still be torn on where to actually get my mash temp from to control my element.

I’ve also adjusted my equipment profiles in BeerSmith. Though not sure they are correct they have to be a little more accurate then what I was using before.

Again thanks to all for their insight, it’s really helped me.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Too avoid Channeling ensure that the hose you select is at least as long to wrap around the whole kettle plus abit otherwise you can have it channel. Also while I've never tried it I don't think using your mash output to adjust your hlt temps will work that great if that's what you were describing. I'm imaging that your hlt temp will go higher than desired and you will overshoot your temps. Most people have a temp sensor in both the hlt and mlt and compensate for the slight difference in temps. you can also try what I suggested above and just mill at .045 that way you don't even need a temp sensor on the mash tun and also won't need to worry about flow rates, compacted grain bed or a stuck sparge. You may take a slight efficiency hit doing it this way but the few times I milled tighter and pumped slower I didn't notice any difference. Cheers

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Too avoid Channeling ensure that the hose you select is at least as long to wrap around the whole kettle plus abit otherwise you can have it channel. Also while I've never tried it I don't think using your mash output to adjust your hlt temps will work that great if that's what you were describing. I'm imaging that your hlt temp will go higher than desired and you will overshoot your temps. Most people have a temp sensor in both the hlt and mlt and compensate for the slight difference in temps. you can also try what I suggested above and just mill at .045 that way you don't even need a temp sensor on the mash tun and also won't need to worry about flow rates, compacted grain bed or a stuck sparge. You may take a slight efficiency hit doing it this way but the few times I milled tighter and pumped slower I didn't notice any difference. Cheers

Thanks for the tip on the hose that makes a little more sense to me.

Also reading back through I can see how I confused you regarding my element control probe. When I was saying mash output I meant mash out of herms coil, so in reality it’s mash in to tun. Basically I shove the prob into my sparge arm and use a binder clip to keep it in there. This way I am keeping the wort at my desired mash temp. The idea is that this will keep my mash at desired temps. I’m concerned that with a probe in my mash that I will overshoot temps due to having a cool spot in my mash, which I’ve experienced prior to moving to herms. The recirc might eliminate this problem though?

 

[Blazinlow86]

Thanks for the tip on the hose that makes a little more sense to me.

Also reading back through I can see how I confused you regarding my element control probe. When I was saying mash output I meant mash out of herms coil, so in reality it’s mash in to tun. Basically I shove the prob into my sparge arm and use a binder clip to keep it in there. This way I am keeping the wort at my desired mash temp. The idea is that this will keep my mash at desired temps. I’m concerned that with a probe in my mash that I will overshoot temps due to having a cool spot in my mash, which I’ve experienced prior to moving to herms. The recirc might eliminate this problem though?

It's possible it will work but I do feel it won't hold at a consistent temp. I would recommend you stick with the traditional method of just controlling the hlt temp. You can just set the hlt higher than desired mash temp to compensate for slower flow or if you have a shorter herms coil. Although I can't say for certain as I have mine setup to avoid all that stuff I imagine the offset required is generally the same so after a few tries you should be dialed in and never have to fiddle again. cheers

 

[bornandraisedlv]

It's possible it will work but I do feel it won't hold at a consistent temp. I would recommend you stick with the traditional method of just controlling the hlt temp. You can just set the hlt higher than desired mash temp to compensate for slower flow or if you have a shorter herms coil. Although I can't say for certain as I have mine setup to avoid all that stuff I imagine the offset required is generally the same so after a few tries you should be dialed in and never have to fiddle again. cheers

I will just give that a go then. It seems that in general it’s a 3°-5° offset.

Thanks again.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

So here is an update:

Brewed this last night:
11lb 12oz pale malt
1 lb 2 oz Munich 10L
8oz carafoam
8oz crystal 60L
8oz melanoiden

Crushed in my new mill at .35
What a difference in crush compared to my lhbs!


Put 4.75 gallons of hot, from the tap, water into my mash tun and filled my hlt with hot, from the tap, water. Then ran my pump until I was at my strike temp and mashed in.

Then brought the controller temp down to 154° in order to keep the mash at 150°. Ran the control probe for my element in my HLT. I had to overshoot the temp by 4° but was able to maintain the 150° throughout the 1 hour mash.

At the end of mash, instead of draining the first runnings like I had been doing I sparged on top of the mash.

Ended up with a 78% mash efficiency with an estimated 81% according to Beersmith. I did take a refractometer reading of the first running and it was at 1.076. I finished at 1.054 instead of the estimated 1.057. So I have made some progress here.

I also took a reading of the wort coming out of my tun at the end of the sparge, which took about 45 mins to collect just under 7.5 gallons, and it was 1.015 so very small amounts of sugar left.

Not sure where in my process I can improve or tweak to squeeze a little more out but I’m happy with those results.

 

[bornandraisedlv]

Just kind of reflecting back on my last brew day process and my mash/recirc process has me wondering.

My wort level was never over my grain bed, more like right at the top of it or even just below, this has been the case with all of my mashed since moving to this herms set up.

I had a total of 14.25 lbs of grain and mashed in with 4.75 gallons, 1.33 qt per pound of grain. I’m using a Tall Boy 10gal kettle that is 16.75” tall with an ID of 13.75.

Not sure if I should just increase my mash in volume to adjust for the take up of my herms coil and hoses and then sparge the same amount and adjust boil time. Or am I over complicating the process?

Also rethinking my false bottom set up specifically with fly sparging. My current false is one of the convex style ones out there and leaves about 3” in diameter between the outer most edge of the false and the inner wall of my tun. That leave a fair amount of grain that’s not directly draining through the false and might leave me open to channeling even at a slow rate. Thinking of changing to something that will cover the entire bottom of my tun with minimal dead space.

 

[Blazinlow86]

One thing I'll add. Don't chase efficiency as it's the least important thing imho. Repeatability is key . Its been a really long time since I had to setup my equipment profile but you need to make sure you have your boiloff and dead space all sorted. Then if you're always coming up short on your gravity you adjust your Brewhouse eff lower until you hit your numbers. Took me a few brews but I always hit my numbers now. Again it's been a long time so someone may correct me. Cheers

 

[bornandraisedlv]

One thing I'll add. Don't chase efficiency as it's the least important thing imho. Repeatability is key . Its been a really long time since I had to setup my equipment profile but you need to make sure you have your boiloff and dead space all sorted. Then if you're always coming up short on your gravity you adjust your Brewhouse eff lower until you hit your numbers. Took me a few brews but I always hit my numbers now. Again it's been a long time so someone may correct me. Cheers

Thanks for the input, and agreed on chasing efficiency. But also want to make sure I’ve set myself up for success.

This has kind of moved off topic of my original post and probably out of the scope of what this forum is intended for.

Thanks again for the info

 

[Blazinlow86]

Cheers and good luck in your future brews

 

[boilerbrad]

My wort level was never over my grain bed, more like right at the top of it or even just below, this has been the case with all of my mashed since moving to this herms set up.

I had a total of 14.25 lbs of grain and mashed in with 4.75 gallons, 1.33 qt per pound of grain. I’m using a Tall Boy 10gal kettle that is 16.75” tall with an ID of 13.75.

Not sure if I should just increase my mash in volume to adjust for the take up of my herms coil and hoses and then sparge the same amount and adjust boil time. Or am I over complicating the process?

I'm in the same boat as you regarding low efficiency on a new e-herms system. Thanks for posting and the follow-ups. They really helped me brainstorm ways that I might be screwing it up. Regarding your wort level, I've been told you want at least an inch of wort on top of the grain bed. I'd be willing to bet your mash tun dead space, hoses, coil, and pump are to blame for the lack of wort on top of the bed. If you can measure the volume of water in your kettle, you can use your pump and valves to easily figure the volume in your hose, pump, and coil. The volume in the false bottom is a different story and may require algebra or an educated guess to determine. Take the number you get from these calculations and add it to your 1.33 qt/lb volume. Or, enter it in your profile in beersmith and let it tell you what to do.

Anecdotally, I used distilled water in my last brew and adjusted with salts per the new water profile tools in beersmith 3. Not sure if it was the water, but my efficiency increased to something a little more reasonable. I was using softened water with only acidic ph adjustments previously. I sent the softened water to Ward and found that it is still as hard as a rock. My bicarbonate levels are way too high to brew anything light. I'll be lugging distilled water downstairs until I can get an RO system and a large storage tank. $$$

 

[augiedoggy]

Just kind of reflecting back on my last brew day process and my mash/recirc process has me wondering.

My wort level was never over my grain bed, more like right at the top of it or even just below, this has been the case with all of my mashed since moving to this herms set up.

I had a total of 14.25 lbs of grain and mashed in with 4.75 gallons, 1.33 qt per pound of grain. I’m using a Tall Boy 10gal kettle that is 16.75” tall with an ID of 13.75.

Not sure if I should just increase my mash in volume to adjust for the take up of my herms coil and hoses and then sparge the same amount and adjust boil time. Or am I over complicating the process?

Also rethinking my false bottom set up specifically with fly sparging. My current false is one of the convex style ones out there and leaves about 3” in diameter between the outer most edge of the false and the inner wall of my tun. That leave a fair amount of grain that’s not directly draining through the false and might leave me open to channeling even at a slow rate. Thinking of changing to something that will cover the entire bottom of my tun with minimal dead space.

you are overthinking it... as long as theres enough water to cover the grainbed, go with the normally recommended amount... if the grainbed is not covered add more water to do so. this is what I do with my 3 vessel rims and average 91% efficiency regardless of the extra quart or 2 and if its needed.

 

[sicktght311]

As i've come to realize over the year and a half with my system, water volumes during mashing and sparging have little effect on efficiency. Just as long as you keep the grain bed covered, and never let it dry out, and your flow throught he grainbed is good, you shouldnt see any major drops in efficiency. No matter how much water i use as strike water, whether its thick or thin mash, (and i just adjust it really by eye at this point), i always get the exact repeatable efficiency every time.

 

[augiedoggy]

I feel like a broken record bringing it up over and over but the biggest obstacle I see causing lower efficiency on a recirculating system is channeling... Which is remedied by recirculating at a lower flow rate. too often I hear of people trying to recirculate as fast as possible or way too fast thinking its somehow going to improve the temp regulation. with a herms you can set the flow as little as 1-2gpm and still hold temps as well as stepmash fine and your going to get higher efficiency due to less compacting of the grainbed.