Efficiency low unless I boil off - Any tips?

[RussPDX]

First let me take this opportunity on my first post to thank everyone for the wonderful information you give here. It has helped immensely as I have gotten into brewing over the past year.

Now for my question. I brew 10 gal AG batches in a pretty standard 3 sanke setup. I run a chugger pump during the mash. I dough in then mix every so often for about the first 15 minutes then let the grain bed set and recirc for about 45 min by putting my immersion chiller into the HLT and pumping the wort through that. It gives me really good temp control. I don't really mash out, but I bring the temp up into the 160's before I start to sparge with 168 deg water. I boil off at about 3/4 gph so I collect about 12.25 - 12.5 gallons for my preboil volume and I get about 65% efficiency everytime. This last time I added a cap full of lactic acid to the sparge water (Portland, OR water) and it made no change in the efficiency.

The runnings at that time are still pretty rich, and I could easily collect more and get up to a preboil volume of 13-14 gallons and increase my efficiency up into the 80's%, but this adds about 2 hours of boil off time to my brew day.

Any thoughts on getting a richer running so that I can avoid the long boil? Am I working from unrealistic expectations? Any additional information that would help I am happy to post if you ask for it. Thanks again and look forward to the insight.

-Russ

 

[opiate82]

1st thing I always tell someone to look at is grain crush.

Next thing is, you said that you tried adding some lactic acid to your sparge water, but have you actually tried measuring your PH (both for mashing and sparging)? I don't know about Portland, OR water, but I know using RO water and following the Water Chemistry Primer in the Brew Science section helped me out a lot.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Edit: Was typing this while opiate82 posted

One word. (And it's a guess, because your post is very thorough, but you didn't address this one thing: Crush.
-
Set your mill gap to .038, or have your LHBS double crush for you and see what happens. You can also decrease your mash water ratio to increase your sparge volume which might help. Your addition of lactic acid without a PH measurement is probably just shooting in the dark, and I've had beers come less then ideal by using too much acid. I use RO and add 1/2 drop per gallon of water, both mash and sparge, and it works great. However, I DO verify mash PH with a PH meter...

 

[johnsnownw]

I don't really have any experience with that type of set up. I will say that I am now getting about 87% efficiency consistently with my 5 gallon set-up. The increase has been due to, milling my own grain, fly sparging, and using BrewCipher. I have basically noticed a 5% increase at each of those three additions, as they were added piecemeal. So, that is, I've noticed a 15% increase in efficiency with those 3 changes.

 

[RussPDX]

Thanks for the quick responses.

PH - I have not been monitoring PH and I asked my LHBS about it and they sold me some strips. I tried testing the straight tap water to get a basline and there was no real color change which would seem to indicate that the water was in the 4.x range which is obviously impossible. I tested the mash as well with similar results....I think I will just buy a digital meter cause the strips seem to be garbage. As for the Lactic Acid, I added it at the recommendation of the LHBS and I figured it wouldn't hurt, but I agree that I would rather not shoot in the dark. If there is a recommendation on a particular inexpensive PH meter I am all ears.

Crush - I will check that out. I brew with a friend of mine and he typically sets up the crush. I will find out what he is setting the mill at (we use the one at the LHBS but it is adjustable).

Water:Grist - I am typically around 1.25 qts per lb of grain. Should I dry it out more?

 

[BryceL]

I've been brewing with a 3 tier sanke setup for about a year or so and also get a 65% efficiency. I can't quite figure out why I'm that low, but I'm fine with it as long as I'm consistent. I have my own mill and condition the grain and crush it pretty well. Fly sparge. One thing I'm going to try this weekend is to do a batch sparge instead of fly. I'll let you know if that makes any difference for me...

 

[acidrain]

3/4 of a gallon per hour is really low. Is it a good rolling boiling?
I boil off 2 gallons per hour, and that's kind of high, but most out there are in the 1 to 1-1/2 GPH range.

 

[RussPDX]

Acidrain - It is a good boil, but I leave the lid on and slid over as I have read that you don't want to just leave it off. I would think that if I tried to boil off pre hop schedule and removed the lid I would get closer to the 1 gal per hour. Also the burner is not the best, and we will be upgrading that soon.

opiate82 - Checked on that crush yesterday and the mill was set to .38 as you suggested. We don't double crush as I think our LHBS discourages it, but I will talk to them about it before we crush the next batch, although I think a future addition to the brew house will be our own mill.

 

[dyqik]

What thickness are you using for the mash? Could you use a thicker mash so you can use more sparge water to get to your preboil volume?

A thicker mash would also mean you could alternatively include a proper mash-out step by adding near boiling water to get your grain bed temperature higher before sparging.

EDIT: Oops, I see you already mentioned that - missed it first time. I don't think you should go thicker than 1.25 quart/lb. A proper mash out step should still help though.

Oh, and AIUI, you should leave the lid off once boiling to help boil off DMS from your kettle. Leaving the lid on traps DMS in the wort.

 

[Tombstone0]

Acidrain - It is a good boil, but I leave the lid on and slid over as I have read that you don't want to just leave it off.

You're actually backwards. Some people leave the lid partially on if they have trouble achieving and sustaining a boil, but you don't want to boil with the lid ON.
This can cause the DMS precursor to drip back into your beer instead boiling away. Or so the conventional wisdom says anyway.


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[dobe12]

.
opiate82 - Checked on that crush yesterday and the mill was set to .38 as you suggested. We don't double crush as I think our LHBS discourages it, but I will talk to them about it before we crush the next batch, although I think a future addition to the brew house will be our own mill.

They discourage a double crush? Why? You're the customer. Tell him you want a double crush or go somewhere else. I've read time and time again and know from personal experience, crush is the biggest reason for efficiency issues. Not saying there aren't other factors, there are, but crush is #1 and the easiest to fix.

Get a double crush next time or try to get it crushed somewhere else, a little finer. Better yet, buy your own mill. I did and couldn't be happier. Cereal Killer is $100 + free shipping.

As you mentioned before, you could mash a little thinner too. IMO, 1.25 is on the average to thicker side. I like to mash around 1.5 - 1.75qt/lb and will sometimes even go up to 2qt/lb. That with a finer crush has got my efficiency from 70-75% range up to 80-85%.

 

[GotPushrods]

Acidrain - It is a good boil, but I leave the lid on and slid over as I have read that you don't want to just leave it off.

That is actually the opposite of what you want to do. The ONLY reason to leave the lid (partially) on is to help maintain a boil if you're brewing on the stovetop without enough BTUs to keep a boil. I can't imagine someone giving any advice other than that.

We need SMM to convert to DMS and escape during boil. If you aren't using a lot of Pils malt, you might not notice DMS as much. But it's flavor threshold is very low. You want it boiling off, not dripping back into your wort. You'll only make that mistake once if you get a DMS bomb.

Checked on that crush yesterday and the mill was set to .38 as you suggested. We don't double crush as I think our LHBS discourages it, but I will talk to them about it before we crush the next batch, although I think a future addition to the brew house will be our own mill.

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again. People do lots of crazy things chasing down efficiency issues. There is CRUSH, and everything else. Second place is not close. Crush is by far the determining factor.

I consistently get 80-85% efficiency by single batch-sparging, draining as quickly as possible, and not mashing-out and/or not worrying about the time/temp of the mashout .... you get the point. However, I crush at 0.032" and have a good CPVC manifold that allows good lautering.j

Every mill is different, so 0.038" is not necessarily comparable to my 0.032", but it's the best place to start.


Now a question: Have you ever taken a gravity of your mash? This should be very predictable, and may indicate problems with your sparge technique or manifold design. Is there a particular reason you fly and not batch sparge?

 

[RussPDX]

Ok. So I will definitely crush a bit finer. That is definitely a major takeaway from this.

Lid on/off - I thought (and I could be mistaken) that I had read that you don't want to leave the lid off for fear of driving off too much good stuff. As I reevaluate this rather than just doing it out of habit, I would ask should I leave the lid partially on post flavor/aroma hop additions in order to avoid driving off those volatile oils? I could see lid off for the first 40-45 minutes of the up schedule. Does that make sense? Or am I overthinking it and just leave it off the whole time?

Fly/batch sparge - I fly sparge mainly because I enjoy the interactivity of it to be honest. I have also read that you get better efficiency fly sparging (although at 65% who knows).

Gravity of the mash - I have/do take the gravity of the mash although I don't know how to figure where it should be. Should I be looking for the total gravity points that I want in the wort? Do I adjust the volume on that calc for grain absorption? I track it but more with an uneducated guess than an understanding of what I am shooting for. I have started to keep some notes on it thinking that if I cross referenced a few batches with my efficiencies I could figure it out. Any guidance is appreciated.


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[BBL_Brewer]

Just out of curiosity, how high are your OG's?

 

[max384]

I started off with efficiencies in the 50% range. Fixing my crush was the MAJOR fix, but going from batch to fly sparging helped as well. I now average 80-85% brewhouse efficiency, and over 90% mash efficiency.

The only time I leave the lid on is when I'm heating water or mash, since speeds it up a bit. As soon as it starts boiling, the lid comes off. I've never heard of someone leaving it on unless they had trouble keeping a boil going. Besides, this way you'll be able to increase your preboil volume, which will mean more sugars extracted from the grain.

 

[Yooper]

Acidrain - It is a good boil, but I leave the lid on and slid over as I have read that you don't want to just leave it off. I would think that if I tried to boil off pre hop schedule and removed the lid I would get closer to the 1 gal per hour. Also the burner is not the best, and we will be upgrading that soon.

opiate82 - Checked on that crush yesterday and the mill was set to .38 as you suggested. We don't double crush as I think our LHBS discourages it, but I will talk to them about it before we crush the next batch, although I think a future addition to the brew house will be our own mill.

Lid OFF! Always. You want the volatiles to leave the beer, you want to condense the wort, you want to have a nice rolling boil, and you want to get a good hot break.

I boil off about 1.5 gallons in the summer, and 2 gallons per hour in the winter. (I live in a pretty dry climate relatively). You want to have a nice rolling boil with no lid at all on the kettle.

 

[MindenMan]

I use 16 quarts of water to 12 pounds of grain in my mash tun if I remember correctly. I realize pre boil volume is important, and since I haven't seen it mentioned get, what are the tail running O.G.? I am trying to say, I used to hit my volume and calculated efficiencies, and stopped sparging. I read somewhere do not stop sparging until the sparge hits 1.015 or so. I didn't always use my hydrometer when sparging, but I thought, "what the heck"?, and found out there was another gallon of 1.030 wort waiting to get out of the grain, so if I needed to add or not to the boil, and If I didn't need it in the boil, I put it aside for making starters.

 

[acidrain]

I use 16 quarts of water to 12 pounds of grain in my mash tun if I remember correctly. I realize pre boil volume is important, and since I haven't seen it mentioned get, what are the tail running O.G.? I am trying to say, I used to hit my volume and calculated efficiencies, and stopped sparging. I read somewhere do not stop sparging until the sparge hits 1.015 or so. I didn't always use my hydrometer when sparging, but I thought, "what the heck"?, and found out there was another gallon of 1.030 wort waiting to get out of the grain, so if I needed to add or not to the boil, and If I didn't need it in the boil, I put it aside for making starters.

Then there is a lot of your problem... You're leaving valuable sugar behind.
Your low-boil off has prevented you from collecting that extra gallon. Add that to the boil, raise your boil off rate, and you will gain a little efficiency.
A thicker mash and more sparge will scavenge more sugar too.

So, double crush, mash thicker, sparge more, and boil off more is my suggestion.

 

[GotPushrods]

Gravity of the mash - I have/do take the gravity of the mash although I don't know how to figure where it should be. Should I be looking for the total gravity points that I want in the wort? Do I adjust the volume on that calc for grain absorption? I track it but more with an uneducated guess than an understanding of what I am shooting for. I have started to keep some notes on it thinking that if I cross referenced a few batches with my efficiencies I could figure it out. Any guidance is appreciated.

This is just a check that you're converting and dissolving all the sugars possible. I like to see at least 95% of theoretical max by the end of the mash.

Example:
10 lbs of 2-row @ 36 PPG = 360
1 lb of Crystal @ 34 PPG = 34

Total of 394 points in, say 4 gallons of water. 394 / 4 = 98.5, or a target of ~ 1.099. If you're mash gravity is at least 1.093, you're in good shape. You're getting conversion and it is dissolving into the mash water.

Once you achieve this, it comes down to getting all that out of the tun and into the kettle.

 

[dobe12]

Then there is a lot of your problem... You're leaving valuable sugar behind.
Your low-boil off has prevented you from collecting that extra gallon. Add that to the boil, raise your boil off rate, and you will gain a little efficiency.
A thicker mash and more sparge will scavenge more sugar too.

So, double crush, mash thicker, sparge more, and boil off more is my suggestion.

I've found that a thinner mash along with a close to equal sparge (after loss to grain) has helped my efficiency. But I'm sure different systems yield different results.

 

[prohl84]

I find I get better extraction with a much thinner mash because more of the sugar is caught up in the first runnings. I am usually around 1.5-1.6 qt/ lb.

Also with the lid off you will boil off faster and a bigger sparge won't add too much to your time.

When fly sparging I thought it was important to mashout since it takes longer and you "lock in" the sugar profile... batch sparging will knock more time off brewday that you could use to boil off sparge water. What temperature are you fly sparging at any possibility of the wort channeling? Uneven runoff will negatively affect efficiency too.

 

[opiate82]

Ok. So I will definitely crush a bit finer. That is definitely a major takeaway from this.

Lid on/off - I thought (and I could be mistaken) that I had read that you don't want to leave the lid off for fear of driving off too much good stuff. As I reevaluate this rather than just doing it out of habit, I would ask should I leave the lid partially on post flavor/aroma hop additions in order to avoid driving off those volatile oils? I could see lid off for the first 40-45 minutes of the up schedule. Does that make sense? Or am I overthinking it and just leave it off the whole time?

You are overthinking it. Leave the lid off the whole time.

Fly/batch sparge - I fly sparge mainly because I enjoy the interactivity of it to be honest. I have also read that you get better efficiency fly sparging (although at 65% who knows).

I believe with fly sparging, monitoring your sparge PH is even more important (I know we covered measuring PH earlier). Try a good old fashion single batch sparge next brew. Not only will you save a ton a time, but you should still be able to get great efficiencies. I crush my own grain and single batch sparge and so far this brew year I am averaging 84% efficiency, with very little deviation from that number from brew-to-brew.

If you want to fly sparge because you enjoy the process, do a little more homework on monitoring and adjusting your PH during your sparge and also ensure you aren't getting any channeling in your mash tun.

 

[dobe12]

I find I get better extraction with a much thinner mash because more of the sugar is caught up in the first runnings. I am usually around 1.5-1.6 qt/ lb.

Also with the lid off you will boil off faster and a bigger sparge won't add too much to your time.

When fly sparging I thought it was important to mashout since it takes longer and you "lock in" the sugar profile... batch sparging will knock more time off brewday that you could use to boil off sparge water. What temperature are you fly sparging at any possibility of the wort channeling? Uneven runoff will negatively affect efficiency too.

+1. I mash between 1.5 - 2.0qt/lb depending on the grain bill. I also shoot to get close to equal runnings between my mash and batch sparge. I BIAB, so I can crush my grain a bit finer which helps efficiency. I'm right around 80-85%.

 

[Spartan1979]

How long do you take to collect your wort? I fly sparge and I've found that if I sparge slower, my efficiency goes up. It's a tradeoff between time and a little extra grain.

 

[MindenMan]

I would think a slower sparge ( to a point) should increase efficiency. I use a Zapap tun, and slow is the only speed available. Once again, a crush discussion. I have two LHBS to get supplies from: one is ten minutes away, and the other is 40 minutes away. I recently brewed an ESB, and followed the recipe I had to the letter, and my O.G. was short, and I was perplexed. So, I ran another gallon of water through the grain bed and got 1 gallon of 1.030 wort, added it, and all was well. Here is my point; the grain I used was from the local store, and I had to work to get a proper O.G.. If I had used the 40 minutes away grain, the O.G. problem wouldn't have happened. The only difference HAD to be the crush difference. Same recipe, same home equipment, same process, and a different outcome, could only be the crush.

 

[Bamsdealer]

One thing I see is that you recalculate for 45 min. I use gravity for my brew process so I dont know If this is common. Maybe try stirring just before you sparge and circulate just a gallon or so until clear. Recirculating for such a long time may compact the grain bed and you might not be getting a good rinse.

 

[Bamsdealer]

Oh... and off with the lid. I boil off about 20% in an hour and leave a couple quarts in tbe pot which gets me a brewhouse efficiency right around 80% on 1050 beers

 

[RussPDX]

I do take about an hour to sparge so I don't think that is an issues. What I am hearing, is that I should make sure I better monitor my ph and try a finer crush. I also realize that due to the lid, I boil off slower and therefore collect less than others, which was part of my original question. I was looking for a way to get the sugar put faster, but part of it is boiling off faster so that it doesn't add so much time.

I will report back after next brew day which unfortunately will be another week or two.


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[prohl84]

Oh... and off with the lid. I boil off about 20% in an hour and leave a couple quarts in tbe pot which gets me a brewhouse efficiency right around 80% on 1050 beers

Please tell me you use those couple quarts for yeast starters/ speise. Speise is my jam yo! A couple quarts is all you need.