eating deposit to keep keg??

[Andyoesq]

So, these local beer store charges a 30 deposit for 1/6 kegs filled with sam adams. I'm buying a couple of kegs for homebrew. But $30 is way less than I can get a reconditioned keg delivered here for. sooooooooo, is it ok to "forget" to timely return it, eat the $30 charge, and use it at home?
I know back in college we used to forget to return empties all the time, bring empties back to the wrong store and roll whatever deposit they gave into new kegs, etc.
But that was many years ago, and now I technically am a grown adult, eehhhhhhh I dunno.

 

[EJay]

No, its not OK. Its not your keg.

 

[abrix]

Maybe look at it from the other side? How would you feel if you were a brewery that had a keg stolen, recovered only the $30 deposit, and then had to go out and buy a new sixth barrel to replace it for $90-100?

 

[Pyg]

as long as you paid the deposit, what are they going to do send the heat to your house (do people still call cops "heat"?, "fuzz" maybe).

it is a dishonest transaction, but a transaction nonetheless.

As long as you can sleep well at night knowing what you have done, that is on you.

"I didn't say you were a bad guy. I said you were a criminal."
-mike ehrmantraut

 

[Homercidal]

Technically you do not own the keg, the brewery or distributor does. You are supposed to return the kegs in a timely manner. Keeping the kegs is considered theft by the owners.

Your state may have different laws regarding the handling of kegs and the process used to rent and return them. Check with the salesperson to see if there is a limit on how long you can keep them. In Michigan you have to sign for the kegs and I believe there is an expected return date, but I have not purchased keg beer, so I can't say for certain what is entailed.

HBT does not condone the illegal practice of keeping kegs. I would advise you to search your own heart on this matter. If you feel you are not bothered by the thought of foregoing the deposit and instead keeping the kegs for your own use, then it may be something you could do.

And may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[PlexVector]

If you walked by a parked car with the windows down and there was a purse setting in the seat---would you take it?

 

[k1ngl1ves]

When you pay for a rental car, is it ok to just keep it for no additional cost?

I put way too many miles on my car traveling to work. I'd like to find another option...

 

[Andyoesq]

yeah, thats the debate. It isn't illegal. Is it morally wrong?
I figure that charge you the deposit in the amount equal to the amount it would cost them to get a new one? They don't do it at a loss - they reserve the amount to make them whole if you don't bring it back.
You aren't stealing it - you are giving them the amount of collateral they requested.
Lets change it a bit - lets say you weren't using it at home, rather you just lost it. Or got lazy and decided not to return it. Or dropped it and broke it. In those cases, they take your deposit, they are made whole, no question on it. Is this different?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Maybe look at it from the other side? How would you feel if you were a brewery that had a keg stolen, recovered only the $30 deposit, and then had to go out and buy a new sixth barrel to replace it for $90-100?

I am not defending nor rationalizing theft but, in reality, wholesale pricing on kegs puts them MUCH closer to the deposit price. I have seen 1/2 barrel kegs on wholesale for $30 a piece.

 

[Andyoesq]

sorry, a bunch of people replied while I was typing my reply.
With the car, they take your credit card and license info. If you keep it, they charge you the amount to make you whole. here, they already have the amount which they determined makes them whole, and only give it back to you, if you return it.
A lot of states (and even some business, like diary barns etc.) charge deposits for bottles. Is this different from throwing out the bottle, and not getting your deposit back?

 

[Andyoesq]

I am not defending nor rationalizing theft but, in reality, wholesale pricing on kegs puts them MUCH closer to the deposit price. I have seen 1/2 barrel kegs on wholesale for $30 a piece.

I guess that it the heart of my question - they are, I think, holding the amount of cost to the of the keg. Isn't it just giving them the amount they determined the keg is worth.

 

[CA_Mouse]

yeah, thats the debate. It isn't illegal. Is it morally wrong?
I figure that charge you the deposit in the amount equal to the amount it would cost them to get a new one?

This is flat out wrong! The cost of a new keg, shipping the empties and shipping the full ones cost nearly $150 for a small brewery. A brewery can't just order one keg at a time either. Depending on the type of keg and the way the purchase is set up, minimum purchases are usually 36 to 90 kegs.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I guess that it the heart of my question - they are, I think, holding the amount of cost to the of the keg. Isn't it just giving them the amount they determined the keg is worth.

It is still theft. While they may be recouping the wholesale value of the keg via deposit, it is not their intent, nor is it your agreement to keep the keg.

Otherwise they would impose a margin of profit and sales tax, thus putting the value in line with retail.

 

[brew_ny]

good question. if you keep a deposit bottle and put home brew in it is it the same thing?

does the bottle you are keeping cost more then a nickel to make?

I am sure the keg cost more then 30 dollars

me I have 20 pinlock kegs that I bought from a soda/carbonic place for cheap

all the best

S_M

 

[Grannyknot]

those sam adams kegs are likely sanke kegs anyway. A pain in the butt to sanitize & fill with homebrew.
So it really isn't worth the legal or moral dilemma in my opinion.

But as a yes or no to your question....
In an attempt to stay clear of the hallowed moral high ground, I'll say that (in my opinion) its probably not a terrible thing to fill one with homebrew a time or 2 if you have the intention of eventually returning it. Cutting the top off a half barrel to use as brewing equipment on the other hand I wouldn't do. I believe that may actually be illegal in many states. This all being said, I wouldn't do either personally because I value the fact that we can buy commercially kegged beer and only have to pay a reasonable deposit. I would hope they never have to charge the true cost of the keg as the deposit.

 

[SnakeRidge]

I remember a thread a while back where a guy found a keg on the side of the road. A keg, laying on the side of the road, okay? This crowd on here wasn't happy until the guy tracked down the brewery, called them, and offered to bring the keg back. I don't think you're gonna win them over to the keep the keg argument.

It comes down to how you'll feel about it. If it will keep you up at night, nobody on here is going to make you feel any better.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

good question. if you keep a deposit bottle and put home brew in it is it the same thing?
S_M

That deposit does not go back to the maker of the bottle or its content nor are those bottles refilled (in the US) they are recycled.

 

[passedpawn]

The Brewer's Association certainly thinks it's theft.

"The Brewers Association led an effort with MicroStar Logistics and the Beer Institute today to request that eBay no longer allow the sale of used kegs without proof of sale. The letter on combined letterhead to eBay’s President John J. Donahoe starts: “On behalf of the members of the Brewers Association, the Beer Institute, and clients of MicroStar Logistics, we write to ask that eBay immediately stop facilitating the sale of stolen beer kegs by allowing unauthorized individuals to sell them using your service.” The letter references 27 CFR § 25.141, which requires that beer kegs are to be permanently marked with the name of the owner."​

http://www.brewersassociation.org/b...ebay-to-stop-selling-stolen-brewers-property/

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

those sam adams kegs are likely sanke kegs anyway. A pain in the butt to sanitize & fill with homebrew.
So it really isn't worth the legal or moral dilemma in my opinion.

Sanke kegs are easier to use and maintain than corny kegs.

 

[johngaltsmotor]

But they don't charge you what it costs them to replace it. They charge just enough deposit to make it painful to forget, but not so much that people avoid getting kegs of beer.

I know around here the AB distributor requires the original paperwork to get a deposit back. But when I asked what would happen if you returned a keg without the receipt they said you wouldn't get your money back. And when I asked "then why would I bring it back if I lost the receipt?" they just gave me a blank look. Granted once they get to the 20th century and keep track of your DL# and refuse to rent you another keg that will change.

 

[Grannyknot]

Sanke kegs are easier to use and maintain than corny kegs.

in your opinion.

 

[brew_ny]

That deposit does not go back to the maker of the bottle or its content nor are those bottles refilled (in the US) they are recycled.

that is indeed true since I was in the GBBA working in the glass industry for a bit

it costs more to recycle glass then to start with fresh glass

so much cheaper to wash and refill bottles, but we chose not to

all the best

S_M

EDIT: I would not keep the keg myself

 

[Andyoesq]

But .....

I love your forum name

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

That deposit does not go back to the maker of the bottle or its content nor are those bottles refilled (in the US) they are recycled.

This, I think. I've read twice and I am still not sure about contents.

At any rate, bottle deposits go to recyclers to offset cost.

 

[Gameface]

Sanke kegs are easier to use and maintain than corny kegs.

Is that true? Do they clean themselves?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

in your opinion.

that and a beer industry fact.

 

[Grannyknot]

a beer industry that has all the appropriate tools, fittings, and machinery to use them....yes.

 

[brew_ny]

Is that true? Do they clean themselves?

I am so down with self cleaning kegs

if you have a kickstarter I am in

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Is that true? Do they clean themselves?

They use the same chemicals used to clean a corny keg, have fewer points of failure, and fewer gaskets to replace.

The only difficult part about using a sanke for homebrew is getting the spear retainer ring out the first time.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

a beer industry that has all the appropriate tools, fittings, and machinery to use them....yes.

Are you genuinely unfamilar?

 

[Grannyknot]

no, I just happen to disagree with you.

 

[JonM]

yeah, thats the debate. It isn't illegal.

Hold the phone. It absolutely IS illegal in every state of the union. You are intentionally depriving the owner of its property. There are plenty of threads here where people have had the cops come to their house over this. There are plenty of threads where distributors have called the cops on people who didn't return kegs. There are plenty of stories about cops arresting scrapyard operators for "finding" kegs. It is illegal.

 

[LandoLincoln]

yeah, thats the debate. It isn't illegal. Is it morally wrong?
I figure that charge you the deposit in the amount equal to the amount it would cost them to get a new one? They don't do it at a loss - they reserve the amount to make them whole if you don't bring it back.
You aren't stealing it - you are giving them the amount of collateral they requested.
Lets change it a bit - lets say you weren't using it at home, rather you just lost it. Or got lazy and decided not to return it. Or dropped it and broke it. In those cases, they take your deposit, they are made whole, no question on it. Is this different?

Yes, it's morally wrong to make an agreement that you're going to return something and then not return it.

No, you are stealing it. You made an agreement to return it but you are reneging on that agreement and you're keeping it.

They charge $30 because nearly all beer drinkers have no need of an empty keg and the $30 is sufficient incentive to return the keg. $30 is not the actual value of the keg.

You're a thief if you keep it, so just come to terms with that fact. Don't try to weasel out of it.

 

[JonM]

The $30 deposit is also what the market will bear.

"One keg, please."
"That'll require a $150 deposit."
"Get @^*#ed! I'm buying cans!"

 

[brew_ny]

You're a thief if you keep it, so just come to terms with that fact. Don't try to weasel out of it.

that is about it

 

[MaxStout]

It's been a long time since I've bought beer in a keg, but I'll be willing to bet that the customer signs a sales agreement with language that clearly states who owns that keg. Given that the ownership has never been waived or otherwise transferred (despite the deposit), if the customer fails to return the keg, that is theft.

The analogy posed earlier to deposits on bottles and cans fails for two reasons:
1. When you buy canned/bottled beverages you immediately take ownership of those containers. The bottler doesn't want them back, and the containers are not reusable in their existing form, unlike kegs.
2. The purpose of can/bottle deposits (by state statute) isn't to encourage return to the bottler (you own those containers, remember?). The deposit is intended as an incentive to recycle and to not litter.

 

[MaxStout]

Lets change it a bit - lets say you weren't using it at home, rather you just lost it. Or got lazy and decided not to return it. Or dropped it and broke it. In those cases, they take your deposit, they are made whole, no question on it. Is this different?

Yes it is. There is intent when you purposefully keep a keg. Intent is what makes it a crime. There is no intent if you lost it or accidentally broke it.

Seriously, you can't tell the difference?

 

[Homercidal]

I believe the state sets the deposit amount, which is supposed to be, according to them, a reasonable amount to encourage people to buy the beer AND return the keg.

The deposit on a soda bottle is NOT the same as the deposit on a Keg. A soda bottle is actually owned when you purchase the soda. The deposit is to encourage you to return it to keep the sides of the roads free from litter and to get people to return the bottle for recycling. It has nothing at all to do with the cost of replacement.

It doesn't take much Googling to read stories from breweries, or their keg suppliers to see how much of a hardship non-returned kegs has been for them financially.