Dupont Vielle Provision Replication Troubles

[Dennisj]

Regarded by many to be the classic Saison, I'm surprised that I haven't seen more recipes or replication attempts out there. I've attempted a few times to either replicate this beer or make something similar but haven't come really even close.

Given that the yeast is the primary flavor component for this beer, I'd imagine that should be the focus. And my understanding is that the White Labs WLP565 is the Dupont yeast strain (?) so it should pretty much get me close. Instead, I get a fruitier, more ester-based flavor than the one I taste in the Dupont. The Dupont seems pretty restrained in regards to the esters. I've tried fermenting cold and very hot and I generally always get more or less the same flavor profile. Perhaps I should try the Wyeast 3724? Anyone have better luck with that one?

Upon having a bottle of the real Vielle Provision tonight I also detected much stronger hops presence than I expected. I always hear how classic Saisons are supposed to be fairly minimally hopped but when I opened that bottle I got a very strong hop aroma - almost Pilsner Urquell-like. This wasn't as present in the tasting - the hops were moderately restrained and there was a nice background sweetness coming through - absolutely blissful mouthfeel underneath a very strong head. What a sublime beer!

Anyhow - I really wish I could find the secret to replicating this one. Am interested in anyone else's experiences.

 

[Jonkl]

Are you corking/aging it? Folks claim that some of the character comes from that.

Barring that, longer boil times, maybe?

 

[giraffe]

Have you tried open fermentation? They have open square fermenters from what I remember, and open fermentation does significantly change the esters produced in many strains. I havent tried it with the dupont strain personally, I hate working with that strain.

 

[dtwhite]

Post the recipe you used. It's kind of hard to figure out what might be different without that information.

I believe it should be 100% Belgian pilsner malt and Styrian Goldings hops, and fermented hot. Try this recipe: http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/saison_dupont_clone_-_040.pdf

 

[kingwood-kid]

Pretty sure Dupont is multi-strain. Culture some yeast from the bottle and you'll get the flavor and attenuation you want. Dupont ferments at "blood-warm" temps, so as hot as you can go is best. I've used bottle dregs at about 95 degrees and it worked great, so don't be scared.

 

[Dennisj]

I didn't post my recipe as it's pretty straightforward - basically the one published in Farmhouse Ales (Dingemann's Pilsner, East Kent Goldings, Styrian Goldings). Also, the primary flavor character comes from the yeast - this is the area where I think the flavor is diverging. I have not tried open fermentation - I think that would likely send me in the wrong direction with highly unpredictable results.

As I said, I've tried very hot - but my limit was probably 85 or so - I suppose I could try pushing that upwards of 90. And I like the suggestion of adding some bottle dregs. I assume it's best to mix that with the WLP565?

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[kingwood-kid]

The 565/3724 is definitely in the bottle dregs. Used alone it has a tendency to stall out. Wyeast claims that 3724 is all that's in the bottle. White Labs says 566 is in there too; they're a little vague about whether or not it's just those two. In any case, the dregs can ake great beer. Growing the dregs is really easy, and in under a week you can easily go from 1 bottle to a pitchable quantity. Others will disagree, but I believe Saisons are one of the beers where being fanatical about pitching enough yeast may be counterproductive.

 

[Dennisj]

I'm in the middle of attempting to culture the yeast from a large bottle of Vielle Provision. I've never tried this technique before so I'm a little uncertain of how well it's going. I kicked it off with a 250mL starter and it appeared that there was some growth (not a great deal but some) so I decanted it and added a 500mL starter. We'll see how that goes. I'd probably ramp to 1L from there and call it a day.

The question I have is this: the yeast solution is fairly brownish in color. Not the light blond color I usually see with commercial liquid yeast. Should I be concerned? And is there a way to gain confidence that I've got a good, viable yeast prior to dumping it in my 5 gallons of very hard work?

 

[kingwood-kid]

If the yeast looks pretty much like the trub on a homebrew batch, then it's fine. The malt will add some color that you won't see in store-bought yeast, as the labs use a different growth medium. If the starter has a krausen and bubbles, then the yeast is alive and well. I suppose your hydrometer could tell you the same thing, but that seems like overkill.

 

[Jonkl]

You can probably also taste it, right? No hops, of course, but I think "bad" would probably jump out, regardless.

 

[Dennisj]

Looks like a fail. The taste isn't bad but it's still very sweet and I'm not seeing significant signs of fermentation. I noticed the cork had a 2-14 code on it which I presume is the brew date so it's pretty old. I may need to try increasing the temperature or just trying a newer bottle.

 

[Dennisj]

It's odd because while there was never much in terms of signs of activity (a little hard to see with a stir plate), now that I've let it sit - there is a decent starting amount of yeast at the bottom of the flask - maybe 1/2 a typical vial's worth. But the wort is still pretty sweet. I'm just not sure what to think.

 

[kingwood-kid]

It's not going to taste great; it's unhopped and oxidized. Check the gravity of the starter; it should be around 1.010.