Dumped 3 batches in a row ☹ Can’t figure out what’s wrong.

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I was making really good beer on my Banjo Burner and Cajun Cooker pot in my early homebrewing days. Suddenly, my beer was undrinkable. I hadn't changed anything...except I decided to clean my pot better between brews. Which was aluminum. Turns out I was scrubbing off the oxide layer between brews and my beer had an annoying metallic taste to it.

That got me permission from the CEO (Chief Everything Officer) of the house to buy a stainless pot. Now I passivate once/year with 1 oz starsan / gallon @ 70C for 30 minutes and never scrub my pots with anything harder than a cloth.

Good beer. Happy wife. Happy life. See, stainless steel does make everything better!
 
I'm going to second the idea of doing the beer with a new yeast. I would suggest LalBrew dry Voss. I find this yeast to be very predictable. I ferment at 40c with it and don't make a starter. It will probably be done in two days. You can do a half batch and use the full packet. That's an over pitch, but I haven't had any problems doing that. Or you can split the pack. Works well either way for me.
 
So let me see if I have this straight.. your batches with regular yeast are good but with kviek they suck?
If this is true then I think I'm sensing a plan of action here.
 
Panderson1 said:
This is driving me insane. I have never dumped a beer before this month. Probably over a hundred brew days in my life. Dumped 3 batches in the past month – over 30 gallons. All the same recipe. At 1.068

I haven’t changed anything in my normal brewing process other than the yeast. Hornindal Kveik yeast.

My starters looked and did well (I didn’t taste the starter wort). The fermentation looked great. Took off fast each brew. Temp was controlled at 80f (kveik likes warm). One batch stopped at 1.031 for some reason. This past batch made it to 1.015. The other 1.010. All of them has an over the top Astringent/metallic taste. Hard to describe but it’s undrinkable. I don’t ever remember having an off flavor since my beginning brew days. I don’t remember having this terrible taste ever.

Note: the batch that made it to 1.010 was actually harvested from the batch prior (the 1.031 batch). Crop topped. Maybe that had something to do with it stopping at 1.031? Either way they both had the same bad off flavor. The 3rd batch was a brand new package. Shipped with ice.

For the 1st and 3rd batch, I pitched 2 liquid packs into my starters at 2000ml – 1.040. This is for a 11 gallon batch (1.068) IPA. Each time.

My very first attempt with this beer/hornindal recipe came out perfect (2 months ago). Probably my best beer ever. I have been trying to duplicate that brew day exactly but then next 3 all got dumped.

I can’t figure out what is going wrong. All the yeast came from label peelers on 3 separate shipments. 1st

Another note is I have done 2 other brews in between those ^. They were 5 gallon batches using different yeast and they are great. No off flavors.

I use a Brewzilla 65L and a fermzilla for the 11 gal batches. The 5 gallon batches were done in buckets and not fermzilla. I’m pretty anal about cleaning and sanitization. So the fermzilla gets soaked in PBW or Oxyclean and scrubbed/wash out good. I also soak in StarSan before transferring making sure the Starsan gets dumped as well. EDIT: The 1.010 batch was actually done in a 13gal stainless conical.... same resulting flavor though :(

I have gone over my list and can’t figure out what it could be. I emailed Omega Yeast and they replied fast about that yeast. I asked if anyone else had concerns about that strain recently. No

Again my 1st time using this strain was really great. Fast and clean. Amazing beer.

Any thoughts? I actually made a thread about this problem a few weeks ago BUT I tried again with brand new yeast (new shipment) and stilling getting same bad flavor/results… Bad yeast? Thoughts on this failed brew?
Click to expand...

Just stopping in to say don't give up. Happened to me twice now. Infection once and bad yeast handling practices the next...
 
Bobby_M said:
All pale beer with RO needs some acid in the mash and sparge.
Click to expand...

Can you or someone please direct me to a good article or video on this subject? It's something i seem to be lacking knowledge. i've seen acid malt in other people's recipes on beersmith and always wondered why. I remember trying to goggle search about it but didn't really find anything. Thanks
 
Panderson1 said:
Can you or someone please direct me to a good article or video on this subject? It's something i seem to be lacking knowledge. i've seen acid malt in other people's recipes on beersmith and always wondered why. I remember trying to goggle search about it but didn't really find anything. Thanks
Click to expand...
This is a pretty short article about mash pH.

https://beerandbrewing.com/water-and-mash-ph/
Essentially, darker roasted grains will reduce the pH more than lighter roasts. I brew a pilsner that needs 3ml lactic acid but when I brew my porter I don't need any. Also, it's not just RO water that needs pH adjustment, some tap water needs adjustment to reach target mash pH as well. I use RO water myself but if I use my tap water I have to add even more acid because I have hard water.
 
Beermeister32 said:
I had an issue where I had to dump 3 batches in a row. Ended up being my mash temp gauge was out of calibration.
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity, by how many degrees were you off target, and in which direction?
I keep reading that hitting mash temps accurately is not that important.
I mean, if you even had to dump batches because of this problem, then either this statement is not true, or your probe was off by a really large margin?
 
If I recall it was off about 8 degrees off (mash too hot). Not sure what I did to it, maybe hit it on something when I was scrubbing it out. Probably need to get a hand held thermometer to cross-check the the one on the kettle (was BIAB.). Probably some tannin extraction too. Eck... What a mess!
 
Beermeister32 said:
If I recall it was off about 8 degrees off. Not sure what I did to it, maybe hit it on something when I was scrubbing it out. Probably need to get a hand held unit to cross-check the the one on the kettle (was BIAB.)
Click to expand...

OK thanks! That would mean about 4 °C, max. 5 °C over here. That can be definitely categorized as inaccurate, but I'm still surprised that it was so extreme you had to dump the resulting beer. Oh well, I'll keep on trying to hit mash temps as accurately as I can...
 
Beermeister32 said:
If I recall it was off about 8 degrees off (mash too hot). Not sure what I did to it, maybe hit it on something when I was scrubbing it out. Probably need to get a hand held thermometer to cross-check the the one on the kettle (was BIAB.). Probably some tannin extraction too. Eck... What a mess!
Click to expand...

I changed my process at one point and mashed way too hot on a pils. It finished at something like 1.023 and was sickly sweet.
I added glucoamylase and fermentation kicked up again and it fermented out to ~1.000. Much stronger beer than I was anticipating, and drier, but drinkable! And the dry pils was interesting. Might make something like that again.
 
Panderson1 said:
Actually no. I rinse with hot sink water. But this has always been the case for years and have never tasted anything at all. It is usually 5 days evaporated by the time i brew. But i guess the residue from city water is still there. I have never tasted anything like this current problem before though
Click to expand...
I doubt this is the issue (and also bet on issues with the yeast), but rinsing with hot sink water seems to defeat the purpose of sanitizing in the first place. The water sitting in your boiler is more likely to contain nasties than the tap water coming straight from the city pipes. If I do a final rinse I use boiled tap water - often still at boiling temp.
 
Panderson1 said:
Can you or someone please direct me to a good article or video on this subject? It's something i seem to be lacking knowledge. i've seen acid malt in other people's recipes on beersmith and always wondered why. I remember trying to goggle search about it but didn't really find anything. Thanks
Click to expand...
I don't have an article link but i, and many others, shoot for a mash PH of 5.3. I also add some acid to the sparge water to get it down to 5.8. You can pick up astringency from the grains in the mash if the PH is too high. I use lactic acid and use a brewer's friend calculator online. some use acidulated malt.
 
^ Thanks. Should I still be concerned if my mash PH is normally around 5.3 - 5.7? I know 5.7 is a tad high for IPA. Maybe adding a little acid would eliminate that.

I use a digital PH meter from kegland.

I will def look into it more. Thanks
 
Panderson1 said:
Can you or someone please direct me to a good article or video on this subject? It's something i seem to be lacking knowledge. i've seen acid malt in other people's recipes on beersmith and always wondered why. I remember trying to goggle search about it but didn't really find anything. Thanks
Click to expand...
The really easy solution is 1-2% of your grist as acidulated malt on top of your grist. This works for me since ages, it's not very scientific, but enough in the right ballpark to solve the problems.

Obviously sparge water would be a different story... This rule applies for full volume mashes only.
 
I use Brewfather to help me figure out how much acid I need to use but as a general rule of thumb, I end up adding about 4ml of 88% lactic to very pale beers (6 gallon batch). Dark golden/amber ends up at about 2mL. Dark brown to black gets none. This is based on my target of 5.35ph.

I don't have anything against acidulated malt but I generally only use it for pale German lagers as an homage to Reinheitsgebot.
 
Bobby_M said:
I use Brewfather to help me figure out how much acid I need to use but as a general rule of thumb, I end up adding about 4ml of 88% lactic to very pale beers (6 gallon batch). Dark golden/amber ends up at about 2mL. Dark brown to black gets none. This is based on my target of 5.35ph.

I don't have anything against acidulated malt but I generally only use it for pale German lagers as an homage to Reinheitsgebot.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I just ordered some lactic acid. I have experimented with acid malt recently brewing a Berliner/sour using this new 'Philly Sour' yeast. It definitely adjusted PH.... fun journey.
 
When I look within my "faults" lists I don't see astringent/metallic as a combination.

Sure properly describing?

The OP focused on process. What about equipment? I ask as I purchased a conical fermenter from another homebrewer. They were selling as they, unfortunately, made funky beers the past few times. I completely disabled everything. I mean everything. The nylon barb used for the valve was green with mold! I throughly cleaned everything and replace the POS nylon with stainless. Problem solved.
 
Tobor_8thMan said:
When I look within my "faults" lists I don't see astringent/metallic as a combination.

Sure properly describing?

The OP focused on process. What about equipment? I ask as I purchased a conical fermenter from another homebrewer. They were selling as they, unfortunately, made funky beers the past few times. I completely disabled everything. I mean everything. The nylon barb used for the valve was green with mold! I throughly cleaned everything and replace the POS nylon with stainless. Problem solved.
Click to expand...

I used two different fermenters. Same disgusting off flavor.
 
Tobor_8thMan said:
@Panderson1 is it astringent or metallic?
Click to expand...

Well, like i said in the OP. "Astringent/metallic taste. Hard to describe but it’s undrinkable."

Also, another poster had a good description of this off flavor. Puke.... liquid puke. Maybe watered down liquid puke.

Very hard to describe to be honest.

A slight bit of metallic/acid/astringent.....

I don't know about you guys but i never get off flavors other than oxidation if an IPA sits too long (hardly ever)

I will report back in a few weeks.

Thank you very much from the responses.
 
Last edited:
Bobby_M said:
I use Brewfather to help me figure out how much acid I need to use but as a general rule of thumb, I end up adding about 4ml of 88% lactic to very pale beers (6 gallon batch). Dark golden/amber ends up at about 2mL. Dark brown to black gets none. This is based on my target of 5.35ph.

I don't have anything against acidulated malt but I generally only use it for pale German lagers as an homage to Reinheitsgebot.
Click to expand...
It's just so freaking easy to use and does the job for me. If I wouldn't do full volume, I would probably also go the liquid lactic acid route. But I actually see no reason why somebody would want to do all the hustle with sparging, if full volume also does the job and it's so much easier :D

Except for too little space in the mashton of course.
 
Following from MoreBeer "Off" Flavors, Their Causes and How to Avoid Them

Tastes/Smells Like:
Tart, vinegary, tannin, drying, puckering sensation, may feel powdery or metallic in the mouth, like sucking on a grape skin or a tea bag.

Possible Causes:
Astringency can be caused by many different factors. Polyphenols or tannins are the number one cause of such flavors. Tannins are found in the skins or husks of the grain as well as in the skin of fruit. Steeping grain for too long or grain that has been excessively milled or crushed can release tannins. When mashing, if the pH exceeds 5.2 – 5.6, astringent flavors can be produced. Over-hopping can also lend a hand in creating astringent qualities.

How to Avoid:
Avoid grain that has been “over-milled”. Grain should be cracked open but not crushed or shredded. When sparging, pay close attention to the temperature and the amount of the water used. When steeping grains, be sure to take them out before the water gets to a boil. Fruits should never be boiled in the wort; instead, they can be added to the fermenter or to water that is hot but not boiling for 15-30 minutes. Make sure that the amount and varieties of hops used are the correct types for the style of beer.
 
Also from the same (MoreBeer)

Metallic

Tastes/Smells Like:
Metal, mainly iron, also described as tasting like pennies or blood, Felt on the front
of the mouth and back of the throat.

Possible Causes:
Wort being boiled in unprocessed metals, mainly iron, but also aluminum, and steel
(excluding stainless) is usually the source of metallic flavors. Metallic flavors can also
be extracted from metal brewing equipment, bottle caps and/or kegs. Using water
that has high levels of iron will impart iron flavors. Improperly stored grains can also
cause metallic off flavors.

How to Avoid:
Use stainless steel pots and brewing equipment (fittings, spoons, etc.) when possible.
Avoid using iron for anything that will be coming in contact with beer/wort. If using
a ceramic coated steel pot, always check for cracks or scratches before using. Stainless
steel will not give off any metallic flavors. Aluminum pots will generally only cause
metallic flavors when using alkaline water with a pH over 9. If using an aluminum
pot, you can “bake” the pot in an oven at 250ºF for 6 hours to increase the protective
oxides. Always use fresh, properly stored grain. Avoid using water with iron in it, such
as unfiltered well water.
 
Panderson1 said:
Actually no. I rinse with hot sink water. But this has always been the case for years and have never tasted anything at all. It is usually 5 days evaporated by the time i brew. But i guess the residue from city water is still there. I have never tasted anything like this current problem before though
Click to expand...
What does your city water taste like? Municipalities have been known to change the source of their water or change th treatment
 
Newsman said:
What does your city water taste like? Municipalities have been known to change the source of their water or change th treatment
Click to expand...

Yeah. Thanks. I drink tap water regularly when I'm too lazy to walk in the middle of the night lol..... it taste good. And the brews i did in-between those in question are fine - i clean the system the same with those brews - using tap water.
 
Panderson1 said:
Yeah. Thanks. I drink tap water regularly when I'm too lazy to walk in the middle of the night lol..... it taste good. And the brews i did in-between those in question are fine - i clean the system the same with those brews - using tap water.
Click to expand...
Hmmm. I'm out of ideas then.
 
My understanding is the clostridium bacteria tend to settle on sweet areas...so like areas on the cold side that can get infected, like ball valves.

So you may have had this problem for a very long time, but when you're not kveiking it doesn't grow quickly enough to surpass the flavor threshold. When you are kveiking, the vomit flavor overpowers all others in the beer it sounds like.

Since the last time you brewed this beer was when you kveiked 2 months ago, perhaps the infection set in between then and now?
 
jrgtr42 said:
The Cali yeast must have killed him. RIP. ;)
Click to expand...

Lol.. so

Update. I kegged the beer. Same recipe and all just using the cali ale yeast. No off flavors . My partner drank a whole pint flat. Cold crashed it a week ago. It was 1.010.

I brewed a 5 gal hazy/neipa a few days before this batch. Fermented in a bucket using a different kevik strain (Voss) at 88f. Perfect beer (imo). Definitely

Huge mystery about the 3 OP beers.....
 
Yep, I'd bet he has a contaminant from a bacteria or wild yeast that is only coming out at high ferment.... Check your pump, he said he'd not opened it up....
 
Brewdog80 said:
Yep, I'd bet he has a contaminant from a bacteria or wild yeast that is only coming out at high ferment.... Check your pump, he said he'd not opened it up....
Click to expand...

See my post above. I brewed a kveik brew after all this happened all was good.

But this is a good point. I need to open it up and inspect/clean it anyway
 

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