Dry yeast with a starter?

[Erik the Anglophile]

I could do a small 1 pack 3dl SNS type vitality starter for my 15L batches on the morning of the day I brew, since I have started brewing at weekend nights in order to have the kitchen child free for myself...

 

[McMullan]

I could do a small 1 pack 3dl SNS type vitality starter for my 15L batches on the morning of the day I brew, since I have started brewing at weekend nights in order to have the kitchen child free for myself...

I'd just try pitching the dry yeast, rehydrated or not into the FV wort. A SNS vitality starter has no real benefit here. Dry yeast don't need oxygen. And the high cell density (1 pack in 3dl) risks programming the yeast cells not to divide. The cells communicate chemically with each other, to respond to their environmental conditions, including population density outstripping available resources. At best they're just going to get a little feed.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This is mostly a counter-ancedotal for future readers, but it may also lead to interesting data points.

Obvious signs of fermentation after 36 hours, instead of 72+.

Can you describe the situation(s) where you didn't see obvious signs of fermentation after 48 hours?

FWIW, over the last five years, I've pitched a lot of yeast dry using a number of common strains (US-05, Nottingham, S-04). Across a range of SG (40 - 70) and temperature (63 - 67), I see obvious signs of fermentation within 24 hours.

 

[jtgoral]

This is mostly a counter-ancedotal for future readers, but it may also lead to interesting data points.


Can you describe the situation(s) where you didn't see obvious signs of fermentation after 48 hours?

FWIW, over the last five years, I've pitched a lot of yeast dry using a number of common strains (US-05, Nottingham, S-04). Across a range of SG (40 - 70) and temperature (63 - 67), I see obvious signs of fermentation within 24 hours.

Same. With 1qt starter even in 4-6 hours for ales and 12 hours for lagers.

 

[McMullan]

This is mostly a counter-ancedotal for future readers, but it may also lead to interesting data points.


Can you describe the situation(s) where you didn't see obvious signs of fermentation after 48 hours?

FWIW, over the last five years, I've pitched a lot of yeast dry using a number of common strains (US-05, Nottingham, S-04). Across a range of SG (40 - 70) and temperature (63 - 67), I see obvious signs of fermentation within 24 hours.

I don't use dry yeast generally, but I have been experimenting with dry lager yeast fermenting under pressure lately. Pitching at 12°C. Activity assessed by gravity dropping and pressure building up. Using higher pitching rates promotes a better fermentation. More viable cells/ml basically. That's my main observation so far and suggests 1 pack of dry yeast isn't quite enough for a standard (23L) batch of wort. With liquid yeast my lager fermentations are done after about 5 days, which is what I'd expect. I've got some dry Verdant IPA yeast to play with over Easter, but I don't expect much difference at ale temperature, tbh. I'll probably do a half batch, harvest and repitch into the same recipe, just to demonstrate the obvious.

 

[McMullan]

Same. With 1qt starter even in 4-6 hours for ales and 12 hours for lagers.

4-6 hours is about the length of a genuine lag phase (switching on required suites of genes and translating proteins/enzymes to multiply and ferment) and what we should be observing when pitching enough healthy yeast cells.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I have been experimenting with dry lager yeast fermenting under pressure lately

Good to know -- how you are using the dry lager yeast may be meaningfully different from how I am using dry ale yeast.

I've got some dry Verdant IPA yeast to play with over Easter, but I don't expect much difference at ale temperature, tbh.

I'm looking forward to seeing the ancedotal report.

 

[ike8228]

I brewed today. I did a starter with Windsor dry yeast 24hrs in advance (and the pack expired 5/21!) and I have activity in my blow off just after 3 hrs. Probably started 1/2-1 hrs ago by the look of it. I have never had a beer start that quickly, especially dry yeast. Starters work.

Update, it was humming 2-3 bubbles a second this morning. 4 hrs later has slowed to to 1 a second. Could it be winding down already? By 24hrs it may be mostly done.

 

[McMullan]

Good to know -- how you are using the dry lager yeast may be meaningfully different from how I am using dry ale yeast.

I'm just sprinkling on top of the wort. Rehydrating in water didn't seem to make any noticeable difference.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I did a starter with Windsor dry yeast 24hrs in advance (and the pack expired 5/21!) and I have activity in my blow off just after 3 hrs. Probably started 1/2-1 hrs ago by the look of it. I have never had a beer start that quickly, especially dry yeast. Starters work.

Update, it was humming 2-3 bubbles a second this morning. 4 hrs later has slowed to to 1 a second. Could it be winding down already? By 24hrs it may be mostly done.

Windsor : I've used it a couple of times, sprinkling it on top of the wort. When measuring visual activity, it appeared to start and finish quicker than the strains I commonly use (US-05, S-04, Nottingham). I'm not convinced it gets to FG any faster, but I haven't brewed with it for a while (Windsor doesn't ferment maltotriose - so for me, it doesn't work well with many of the worts I want to ferment).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Since we're in the beginners forum here (cough!), just a note on expiry dates :

I brewed today. I did a starter with Windsor dry yeast 24hrs in advance (and the pack expired 5/21!)

I think it's safe to say that best-before dates on yeast are solely for the convenience of retailers but they're either too short or too long for brewers. Yeast doesn't suddenly "die" on the expiry date, nor does it have 100% vitality on (expiry date)-1, it is a long decline from the moment it is packaged.

Dry yeast "goes off" at <10% per year if you don't do anything stupid with it so the half-life is measured in decades. I found some dry bread yeast at the back of a cupboard that had been at ambient temperature for 20 years and it still made bread, albeit with perhaps 40% of the activity of fresh.

Whereas there's a good argument that the best-before on 100bn-cell liquid yeast packs should be 3 months rather than 6, if they're to be used in the way that they are advertised, without a starter. But then retailers wouldn't stock them. However, those packs still have viable cells years after their expiry dates and they can be rescued if you baby them. I've revived a White Labs pack that was nearly 5 years old, and I've currently got a Wyeast pack starting in the airing cupboard that is nearly 4 years old. It's not ideal, but it's doable.

 

[balrog]

I use "old" yeast all the time.

I also make overpitch starters all the time.

I definitely see a relation between age and how long for a starter to get going and finish nice and creamy, but when subsequently used in a batch, things begin reliably quickly.

I will typically only make starters with dry yeast when I want a huge pitch and don't want to buy more dry packs of yeast.

 

[rtstrider]

Yeasts behave differently. From my experience the only dry yeast that has benefitted from a starter is Lallemand Koln. That yeast is absolutely dog slow when coming from a dried state. It can take up to 4 days to start showing signs of activity regardless of pitch rate. Now in this instance I tossed a dry pack into 1L 1.040 wort on the stir plate about 1 1/2 years ago. It took 4-5 days to begin dropping gravity. Once this was finished I stepped it up to 2L 1.040 for giggles and same...Was DOG slow. I figured what the hey and banked it up in the freezer via water/glycerin in a 15ml test tube. About 2 weeks ago I decided it was time to wake up that bugger and see what happens. The yeast was a bit slower than most on the multi stepped starter. By the time it got to the final step it acted like any other yeast from a smack pack. I cold crashed for 24 hours, decanted, poured the slurry into 60F wort, within 4 hours there was signs of fermentation and at 17 hours there was a full krausen. Yes this is a tad overkill for dried yeast but so is a recommendation of 3 packs for a normal OG batch (per Lallemands pitch rate calculator) with a lag time of 3-4 days (both from experience and Lallemand's own website).

Now with that said I've done the same with w34/70 with no difference in fermentation between dry pitching, rehydration, and starter. The only time a starter, or stepped starter, would be worth it with dry yeast is if you're banking it, the yeast is pretty expensive per pack where multiple packs are needed (looks at the lager strains), or the yeast has a known long lag time. These are just my own experiences so hopefully it helps!

 

[McMullan]

What's a 'long lag time'? A yeast lag phase is a few to several hours, not a few to several days. If it takes more than several hours - to express genes and translate mRNA to proteins - there's something wrong.

 

[rtstrider]

What's a 'long lag time'? A yeast lag phase is a few to several hours, not a few to several days. If it takes more than several hours - to express genes and translate mRNA to proteins - there's something wrong.

Per Lallemand

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...-details/lalbrew-koln-kolsch-style-ale-yeast/

• Lag phase can be longer compared to other ale strains, ranging from 24-36 hours

My experiences is that the lag can be a bit longer than that with this strain. I have actually been in contact with Lallemand about my experiences. I've used multiple packs from different lots as well. Lallemand actually direct shipped that strain to me as a replacement for a bad batch.

 

[McMullan]

Per Lallemand

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...-details/lalbrew-koln-kolsch-style-ale-yeast/

• Lag phase can be longer compared to other ale strains, ranging from 24-36 hours

My experiences is that the lag can be a bit longer than that with this strain. I have actually been in contact with Lallemand about my experiences. I've used multiple packs from different lots as well. Lallemand actually direct shipped that strain to me as a replacement for a bad batch.

That's not a genuine lag phase, regardless what Lallemand's marketing claims. Most brewer's yeast don't respond well to being dried in commercially driven processes. Clearly 'Köln' is one of them, clinging on by its teeth.

 

[rtstrider]

That's not a genuine lag phase, regardless what Lallemand's marketing claims. Most brewer's yeast don't respond well to being dried in commercially driven processes. Clearly 'Köln' is one of them, clinging on by its teeth.

Mind schooling me on what you mean by not a genuine lag phase? I don't mean that in a negative tone at all. I'm genuinely curious

 

[McMullan]

Mind schooling me on what you mean by not a genuine lag phase? I don't mean that in a negative tone at all. I'm genuinely curious

It's simply the time it takes to remodel the proteome to respond to the new environment. The time taken to express genes and translate proteins. It takes hours not days.