Dry yeast manufacturers… could you please up the 11g packet size?

[k-daddy]

I’m sure increased revenue is a factor as some are likely pitching 1+ packets for a 5-6 gallon batch. I’d like to see dry yeast manufacturers increase the single packet size to 15-18 grams. Most of my beers are around 1.065 OG and all dry yeast calculators say I need 14-16 grams. I’ve always pitched 1 pack and the results have been good but a little extra in the pack would eliminate any under pitching concerns. Thoughts?

 

[moreb33rplz]

I mean, I'd like more yeast too if the cost is the same, but liquid or dry, if you're brewing a higher OG beer you're gonna need more packets or a starter

 

[RM-MN]

Pitching rates were derived for commercial breweries where a fast start and finish means they can turn around their fermenting vessels quickly and with no worries about an off flavor. I've quit worrying about pitch rates after a Brulosophy experiment with pitch rates where a severe underpitch was indistinguishable from a massive overpitch with any reliability. If you read here on HomeBrewTalk enough you will find people who claim they can tell the difference but in most cases they probably cannot.

 

[soccerdad]

Somebody has gone to 15g ... is it Cellar Science?

 

[MaxStout]

I see Fermentis now offers a 100g pouch. Way too much for typical homebrewers, unless you're brewing 1bbl batches, or 15 gal of lager.

I'd love to see something around 20g, maybe even a bit larger for lager yeasts. But no doubt they would rather sell multiple 11g packs to us.

 

[soccerdad]

My brew club buddy buys the 500g bricks, stores in a sealed Quart canning jar, and dips out what he wants for each batch

 

[IslandLizard]

I totally agree, the 11.5 grams is a bit skimpy and the $4-6+ price is relatively high for what you get. For comparison, one can buy two 1-pound bricks of dry bakers yeast for $5.

You can always pitch a partial pouch along with the whole one, and reseal it for a next use.

Stick the resealed pouch inside a ziplock baggy then store in the freezer or fridge. Key is, the dry yeast should remain dry. If it gets damp or wet, it needs to get used immediately or tossed.

 

[eric19312]

I’m sure increased revenue is a factor as some are likely pitching 1+ packets for a 5-6 gallon batch. I’d like to see dry yeast manufacturers increase the single packet size to 15-18 grams. Most of my beers are around 1.065 OG and all dry yeast calculators say I need 14-16 grams. I’ve always pitched 1 pack and the results have been good but a little extra in the pack would eliminate any under pitching concerns. Thoughts?

what dry yeast calculators are you using? just curious as dry yeast just doesn't seem to fit well into liquid yeast calculator models as far as I can tell.

 

[eric19312]

I see Fermentis now offers a 100g pouch. Way too much for typical homebrewers, unless you're brewing 1bbl batches, or 15 gal of lager.

I'd love to see something around 20g, maybe even a bit larger for lager yeasts. But no doubt they would rather sell multiple 11g packs to us.

any online stores stocking them? I do make 15-18 gallon batches and would be interested for either a high gravity ale or a lager.

 

[MaxStout]

any online stores stocking them? I do make 15-18 gallon batches and would be interested for either a high gravity ale or a lager.

Don't know. I just stumbled on that page while looking up a tech sheet a few days ago. 100g would be right in the ballpark for what you're doing.

Hell, I'd consider it if I were doing a couple larger batches back to back.

 

[TestTickle]

My brew club buddy buys the 500g bricks, stores in a sealed Quart canning jar, and dips out what he wants for each batch

I buy US-05 by the brick and do this as well.

 

[Kickass]

Somebody has gone to 15g ... is it Cellar Science?

Cellar science is 12g, I believe. I love their German lager. Ferments well at warmer temp too.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I’m sure increased revenue is a factor as some are likely pitching 1+ packets for a 5-6 gallon batch. I’d like to see dry yeast manufacturers increase the single packet size to 15-18 grams. Most of my beers are around 1.065 OG and all dry yeast calculators say I need 14-16 grams. I’ve always pitched 1 pack and the results have been good but a little extra in the pack would eliminate any under pitching concerns. Thoughts?

I agree. It would be nice if the target pitch rate was for more like 1.065 vs 1.050 wort.

There seems to be conflicting info on just how much yeast is in a typical dry yeast packet. Several Fermentis yeasts state "Viable yeast > 1.0 *10^10 cfu/g" or 10B cells per gram or 115B cells per 11.5 gram pack. That rate seems typical for many dry yeasts (though I know are some are lower). It is often close to this number or does that greater than sign actually mean something?

I have generally seen better results with direct pitching a pack of dry yeast, than I have with direct pitching a pack of White Labs or Wyeast yeast. Is this because dry yeast has more than 115B cells? Because the dry yeast stays close to that 115B cells where the liquid yeast starts to drop of very fast with a month or two of age? Or is the dry yeast in a healthier state than the liquid yeast? I will almost always do a vitality starter if pitching a 100B pack of liquid yeast into a 5-gallon batch.

 

[moreb33rplz]

Pitching rates were derived for commercial breweries where a fast start and finish means they can turn around their fermenting vessels quickly and with no worries about an off flavor. I've quit worrying about pitch rates after a Brulosophy experiment with pitch rates where a severe underpitch was indistinguishable from a massive overpitch with any reliability. If you read here on HomeBrewTalk enough you will find people who claim they can tell the difference but in most cases they probably cannot.

I'm scared to deviate from the hive mind....but I've never really noticed pitch rates to have a noticeable impact on my beer.

 

[k-daddy]

what dry yeast calculators are you using? just curious as dry yeast just doesn't seem to fit well into liquid yeast calculator models as far as I can tell.

Here's one from Lallemand Pitching rate calculator | Lallemand Brewing

 

[Spivey24]

Yea that’s silly. Anything over 1.048 says 2 packets. Up it to 15g and it would cover a lot more range. You can always do a double batch and split 3 packets.

 

[Brewdog80]

All it does is speed up the process. Pitch one and wait an extra day. Commercial breweries pitch way high rates to get the brews finished, can't sell what isn't ready. Zero reason to pitch 2 or 3.

 

[VikeMan]

All it does is speed up the process. Pitch one and wait an extra day. Commercial breweries pitch way high rates to get the brews finished, can't sell what isn't ready. Zero reason to pitch 2 or 3.

That's not "all" it does. Pitch rates affect other things, like growth rate, which influences ester and fusel levels in the finished beer.

@yorkeken Further reading: Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff

 

[McMullan]

Unfortunately, it comes down to a predictable business decision aimed at maximising profits and stuffing shareholders, not encouraging home brewers to pitch at decent rates. The same thing with liquid/wet yeast suppliers, to be fair, but not so harsh here, because a starter needs to be made when using wet yeast. What's annoying is dry yeast manufacturers sell the marketing spiel about how convenient ADY is compared to wet yeast then sell home brewers stingy pack sizes barely sufficient for fermenting a half batch. It's a bit devious, if we're misled to compare the price of one pack dry yeast vs one pack of wet yeast. They should accept they're mis-selling their product, double the standard homebrew pack size and compromise on price.

 

[JoeSpartaNJ]

I pretty much exclusively use dry yeast. Safale, Lalbrew, Mangrove, etc.

I have never had to pitch more than one packet and have never had a beer under attenuate (I acually usually have the opposite problem.)

O.G.'s from 1.040 up to 1.085

11g for me always works

I think that some of the online calculators makes things more complicated than they need to be.

 

[McMullan]

All it does is speed up the process. Pitch one and wait an extra day. Commercial breweries pitch way high rates to get the brews finished, can't sell what isn't ready. Zero reason to pitch 2 or 3.

A better way of viewing it, in a binary way, is under pitching slows the process and sometimes promotes stalling. Usually around 1.020, when there's no more yeast left to give up.

 

[tracer bullet]

There seems to be conflicting info on just how much yeast is in a typical dry yeast packet.

Indeed! I'd like to get a more clear idea of what's in a packet as well. The #'s are all over the place and I have no way to confirm which is right.

That's not "all" it does. Pitch rates affect other things, like growth rate, which influences ester and fusel levels in the finished beer.

I think that's been my experience as well. I think I get fewer esters with a starter than I do direct pitching. This is for liquid yeast anyhow, which I use more often. That said there may have been other variables that changed as well and I haven't ever done a side-by side comparison.

 

[Jag75]

I used that calculator. Said I needed 35 packs of 11g or one 500g pack fir 2bbl . At 5$ a pack that comes out to 175$ . That's more then a pure pitch of liquid yeast .

 

[dmtaylor]

Yeast calculators are overly conservative. I can't access MrMalty's calculator anymore, but when I could, I would calculate the result, and then... divide by 2 and use that much. It's so conservative. Anyway, there's twice as many viable cells in a dry pack as they actually claim.

Rabbit hole:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=27438.0

 

[Jag75]

Yeast calculators are overly conservative. I can't access MrMalty's calculator anymore, but when I could, I would calculate the result, and then... divide by 2 and use that much. It's so conservative.

I could see this . At home it's it's 1 pack for a 5 gallon batch. At the Brewery we use 6-7 packs per barrel.

 

[McMullan]

Personally, I actually like commercial beers and I find pitching at very high rates produces a better balanced beer without hiding subtle complexity. But I respect some people prefer to under pitch, to get a more 'flavoursome' profile often associated with unbalanced home brew. I guess if you're using a boring yeast or chewing hops it doesn't matter much.

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

I feel like people who frequently make starters, are by and large just busybodies who really enjoy the science behind brewing, and just always have to have something going on in their little laboratories. From my experience, there is virtually no reason to make a starter for 95%of the beers most are brewing, and the money saved is minimal in the grand scheme of things. If you enjoy doing it, knock yourself out, but it’s usually overkill IMO.

 

[eric19312]

Here's one from Lallemand Pitching rate calculator | Lallemand Brewing

Thanks that is fantastic calculator!

 

[McMullan]

I feel like people who frequently make starters, are by and large just busybodies who really enjoy the science behind brewing, and just always have to have something going on in their little laboratories. From my experience, there is virtually no reason to make a starter for 95%of the beers most are brewing, and the money saved is minimal in the grand scheme of things. If you enjoy doing it, knock yourself out, but it’s usually overkill IMO.

 

[SanPancho]

Ability to repitch is a big reason why commercial brewing defaults to “high” pitch rates. Too much multiplication decreases the amount of times you can repitch before ordering new yeast. It stresses the yeast, and also depletes certain nutrients. and that ultimately means less viability on your yeast after each brew.

speed isn’t really th issue. a production facility might brew twice or even 3x a day. A pitch could be reused within a day or two, if not hours. I think it’s mostly about keeping yeast healthy and happy so you don’t have issues for repitch. And it helps maintain consistency. In that sense it’s actually 3 out of 3, cheaper, better and faster.

does it translate to home brew? Not realily, as I assume most do a starter before they repitch their yeast. So not really cheaper at that point. but the “better, faster” parts still apply I’d say.