Dry vs. Wyeast yeast

[camaro21]

This might be naive but isnt yeast yeast regardless of packaging/marketing/whatever people want to try and sell? I'm wondering cause I'm getting ready for my yearly HB upgrades from various Christmas $ gifts and was wondering whether I should just go with the "smack pack" and not use starters or invest in some yeast starter and washing equipment and only use muntons dry yeast or something along those lines ($ is the reason there is a dilemma, obviously I'd love to do the whole yeast management thing with more expensive yeast if I could).

Reasoning for dry: I enjoy the process and dont mind throwing in more work to have my hands in the brewing process more. Im sure this is why many of you guys enjoy homebrew, on top of the beer of course haha

Reasons for wyeast: the smack. But really, any testimony that wyeast makes superior beer would be enough to sway, I just dont see how there can be a difference?

Thanks

 

[bottlebomber]

Theres got to be 200 different yeast strains available between the liquid and dry beer, wine, and champagne strains. Of course they're different. Lager yeast and ale yeast aren't even the same species. As far as if liquid yeast is "better" I suppose it depends on who you ask. Safale makes great dry yeast, but there is no dry yeast available that will make you a French saison, for example. You should try playing with some of them yourself, to see what you think.

 

[DeafSmith]

.... was wondering whether I should just go with the "smack pack" and not use starters or invest in some yeast starter and washing equipment and only use muntons dry yeast or something along those lines

Reasoning for dry: I enjoy the process and dont mind throwing in more work to have my hands in the brewing process more.

Reasons for wyeast: the smack.

It's my understanding that you need to make a starter with any liquid yeast, even with the "smack pack", and normally don't need to make one with dry yeast (just rehydrate before pitching) - so dry yeast is LESS work, not more. You seem to be doing just the opposite, unless I have misunderstood something in your post.

 

[camaro21]

Thanks for the comments. It was my understanding that u can use the wyeast smack packs quite successfully without starters. I guess I phrased it wrong, but with the equipment I would be washing and reusing yeast. I guess its whether people prefer to reuse crappy yeast or if buying new yeast for every batch is worth it. Again $ is the driving factor but buying different yeast for a string of 3/4 batches (similar types) is probably what Ill go with, apparently I wasnt aware of the difference yeast can make.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Smack packs are good to use without starters if the OG of your beer is less than 1.050 and you have a pack of recent production-date yeast.

Also, it's only possible to "reuse crappy yeast" if you initially used crappy yeast. You can wash and harvest yeast for as long as you want.

 

[frankstoneline]

You can probably wash and save yeast with things you already have around (I use a kitchen pot, star san, an empty growler and some empty bottles) you can reuse smack pack or dry cultures. given these same materials you can also make the necessary starters. With a little planning you can use whatever cultures you want multiple times and cut your yeast costs drastically.
I would suggest making some simple starters using a growler and some DME as per tutorials (search to find them), and working to re-use and save cultures if you wish to introduce a new aspect of work to the process.

 

[Revvy]

It's really a stupid argument...because it's NOT an argument. It's not a contest as to which is better. They all can make great beer or ****ty beer depending on the brewer, NOT on the type of yeast. It's not a competition, it's not an argument, they all serve their purposes, one is NOT better than other....

If you're brewing a standard ale it's a waste of time and money to use liquid yeast. Dry yeast is fine for 99% of the brewing we do.

I have found that a lot of new brewers especially, THINK they HAVE to use liquid yeast for everything, but in reality most ales can be made with Notty, Windsor, Us-05, Us-04 and many lagers with basic Saflager.....7-8 bucks a pop for liquid as opposed to $1.50-2.50 for dry, with more cell count, is imho just a waste of money for the majority of a brewer's recipe bank...most commercial ales us a limited range of strains, and those liquid strains are really the same strains that the afore mentioned dry strains cover, for example Us-05 is the famed "Chico strain", so if you are paying 7-8 bucks for Wyeast 1056 American/Chico Ale Yeast, and you STILL have to make a starter to have enough viable cells, then you are ripping yourself off, in terms of time and money....

I use dry yeast for 99% of my beers, for basic ales I use safale 05, for more british styles I us safale 04 and for basic lagers I use saflager..

The only time I use liquid yeast is if I am making a beer where the yeast drives the style, where certain flavor characteristics are derived from the yeast, such as phenols. Like Belgian beers, where you get spicy/peppery flavors from the yeast and higher temp fermentation. Or let's say a wheat beer (needing a lowly flocculant yest) or a Kholsch, where the style of the beer uses a specific yeast strain that is un available in dry form. Or certain certain specific English ale strains like Yorkshire or Burton

But if you are looking for a "clean" yeast profile, meaning about 90% of american ales, the 05, or nottingham is the way to go. Need "Bready" or yeasty for English ales, then 04 or windsor. Want a clean, low profile lager yeast- saflager usually does the trick.

The idea of dry yeast is "bad" is really a holdover from the bad old days of homebrew prohibition (prior to 1978 in america) when yeast came over in hot ship cargo holds, was of indeterminant pedigree and may have sat on the shelves under those cans of blue ribbon malt extract in the grocery store for god knows how long. That is simply not the case in the 21st century- all yeasts, liquid or dry ave excellent and can be used, EVEN the stuff that comes with kits.

Palmer doesn't bash dry yeasts...

Yeast come in two main product forms, dry and liquid. (There is also another form, available as pure cultures on petri dishes or slants, but it is generally used as one would use liquid yeast.) Dry yeast are select, hardy strains that have been dehydrated for storability. There are a lot of yeast cells in a typical 7 gram packet. For best results, it needs to be re-hydrated before it is pitched. For the first-time brewer, a dry ale yeast is highly recommended.

Dry yeast is convenient for the beginning brewer because the packets provide a lot of viable yeast cells, they can be stored for extended periods of time and they can be prepared quickly on brewing day. It is common to use one or two packets (7 - 14 grams) of dried yeast for a typical five gallon batch. This amount of yeast, when properly re-hydrated, provides enough active yeast cells to ensure a strong fermentation. Dry yeast can be stored for extended periods (preferably in the refrigerator) but the packets do degrade with time. This is one of the pitfalls with brewing from the no-name yeast packets taped to the top of a can of malt extract. They are probably more than a year old and may not be very viable. It is better to buy another packet or three of a reputable brewer's yeast that has been kept in the refrigerator at the brewshop. Some leading and reliable brands of dry yeast are DCL Yeast, Yeast Labs (marketed by G.W. Kent, produced by Lallemand of Canada), Cooper's, DanStar (produced by Lallemand), Munton & Fison and Edme.

Dry yeasts are good but the rigor of the dehydration process limits the number of different ale strains that are available and in the case of dry lager yeast, eliminates them almost entirely. A few dry lager yeasts do exist, but popular opinion is that they behave more like ale yeasts than lager. DCL Yeast markets two strains of dry lager yeast, Saflager S-189 and S-23, though only S-23 is currently available in a homebrewing size. The recommended fermentation temperature is 48-59°F. I would advise you to use two packets per 5 gallon batch to be assured of a good pitching rate.

The only thing missing with dry yeast is real individuality, which is where liquid yeasts come in. Many more different strains of yeast are available in liquid form than in dry.

Liquid yeast used to come in 50 ml foil pouches, and did not contain as many yeast cells as in the dry packets. The yeast in these packages needed to be grown in a starter wort to bring the cell counts up to a more useful level. In the past few years, larger 175 ml pouches (Wyeast Labs) and ready-to-pitch tubes (White Labs) have become the most popular forms of liquid yeast packaging and contain enough viable cells to ferment a five gallon batch.

The Yeast like Notty, Us-05, u-04, and many others, made my Danstar, and fermentis are some of the best yeast around, they are just as good as the liquid strains, in fact, many are the exact same strains as those by whitelabs, and wyyeast, just in dry forms.

Good quality dry yeast has been used by commercial breweries for decades if not longer, and it was only since Homebrewing was legalized was the stuff we know available to homebrewers.

That's why every dry yeast house has industrial divisions.

Danstars website even alludes to this...

The use of active dried professional yeasts for amateur brewing is a relatively new phenomenon introduced by Lallemand. Now, choose your active dried yeast for brewing with confidence. Ask for Danstar superior quality yeasts at your local retailer.

And this from Fermentis....Beer Industrial Brewing Why use Fermentis Yeast

Bottom line, use what you want, but realize that is only a preference. Both liquid and dry are excellent these days. They both have the potential to make great or crappy beer.

Depending on YOU, the brewer.

 

[MrManifesto]

Cliff notes of another 10k word text wall:

Make sure you know what your yeast is contributing and pick the one appropriate to the beer you're brewing.

There, I saved you 10min haha

 

[Revvy]

If you're interested, there's a great breakdown of yeasts here, he covers both liquid and dry strains.

It may have too many big words or ideas for Mr. Manifesto to handle, but if you're looking for information and not just plithy comments then check it out.

 

[MrManifesto]

If you're interested, there's a great breakdown of yeasts here, he covers both liquid and dry strains.

It may have too many big words or ideas for Mr. Manifesto to handle, but if you're looking for information and not just plithy comments then check it out.

Calm down bud. Just busting your chops a little. You do unleash with the text walls pretty frequently.

 

[Yooper]

It's really a stupid argument...because it's NOT an argument. It's not a contest as to which is better. They all can make great beer or ****ty beer depending on the brewer, NOT on the type of yeast. It's not a competition, it's not an argument, they all serve their purposes, one is NOT better than other....

I didn't read all of that response, but I did want to say that are indeed some poor quality dry yeast strains. Cooper's and Munton's are two dry yeast companies I would stay away from, Munton's especially.

But good quality dry yeast from Safale or Fermentis is absolutely fine. And they can make great beer. You don't make a starter with them, but it's recommended to rehydrate. I never do, I just sprinkle onto the wort.

There are many more strains of liquid yeast than dry, and so for a bigger selection of yeast strains, you'll have to go with liquid. If you're happy with only about 6 strains, then dry is sufficient. I use both in my brewery.

 

[DMartin]

Tl;r

 

[Revvy]

I didn't read all of that response, but I did want to say that are indeed some poor quality dry yeast strains. Cooper's and Munton's are two dry yeast companies I would stay away from, Munton's especially.

But once folks loose the cooper's kits, rarely do folks contemplate using those brands. How many recipes on here ever mention those yeasts? I've never seen any. When talking about dry strains, most of us on here ARE referring to fermentis and the makers of notty, and their other strains.

Though I think Cooper's gets a bad rap from being under the lids of cans. Many of us would love to get out hands on the stuff in the bottles of Cooper's beer. Even the hosts of the Aussie podcast craftbrewer radio have said the stuff in the kits is not the same as they actually use in their commercial beer, and that is supposedly some good yeast.

In fact in Oz, one of the reasons their beer is bottle conditioned (the sparkling ale and sparkling lager) is so homebrewers can actually get their hands on their house strains.

 

[Yooper]

But once folks loose the cooper's kits, rarely do folks contemplate using those brands. How many recipes on here ever mention those yeasts? I've never seen any. When talking about dry strains, most of us on here ARE referring to fermentis and the makers of notty, and their other strains.

Many, many new brewers grab Munton's as it's cheaper and a LHBS will tell them it's "fine". Our recipe database doesn't include that crap strain, since those recipes are proven tried and true. But a new brewer is presented with many choices and should be armed with some knowledge that quality dry yeast strains are available, but not every package is the same.

A new brewer at his homebrew store wouldn't assume what you know.

 

[Revvy]

Calm down bud. Just busting your chops a little. You do unleash with the text walls pretty frequently.

I give as much info as I like to receive when I'm looking for information. When I'm learning something I want as much info as possible. In as much detail as possible. I like examples, in depth explanations, analogies, and citations, hopefully well worded.

"Cliff notes" aren't really helpful to me, until perhaps AFTER I've worked through the original material.

I figure folks who like detail can read it down to every nuance, folks who like citations, can read the citations, folks who like analogies can pick out the analogy....There's stuff there for everyone, skimmers and diggers alike.

I must be doing something right, considering my inbox is usually full with folks asking me even more questions, and help.

 

[Golddiggie]

They all can make great beer or ****ty beer depending on the brewer, NOT on the type of yeast.

Not to start an argument, which I'm really not in for, I take exception to part of this statement. For one thing, I've brewed the same recipe using different yeast strains and found the finished brew (mirrored as much as I could otherwise) to be rather different. Not radically different, but enough that I noticed and would pick one yeast strain over the other. Of course, I am using the Wyeast strains in my brews and have from the start. Early on I began using starters and haven't looked back.

When I'm formulating a recipe, I also factor in what the yeast strain will contribute to the brew. Which one will give me what I want is the one I'll end up using. That being said, I do find that I tend to use the one of a handful of strains over and over again. I'm not opposed to trying a new one though (like the different ones Wyeast comes out with every quarter as part of the Private Collection set).

I do agree that you can get quality dry yeasts, and many brewers prefer them to others. I just find that I like what I get from the Wyeast strains, along with the information provided about them.

Personally, I wouldn't try to go cheap on the yeast for a brew. I also wouldn't try to reuse a crappy strain, or one I wasn't happy with. If you're going to wash yeast, make sure it's a strain that will be good for the majority of your brews. If you have the fridge space, maybe harvest a couple of strains, and use them at will. I did that for a while and enjoyed the cost savings (it was more work, but that was ok). Since I've been working again, though, I've found that my spare time is more valuable than what I was saving by washing yeast. Plus, if you source the yeast right, you can get it for about $5-$6 per smack pack (if you order more items with the yeast, to reduce the per item shipping). I don't mind spending a few dollars more on yeast when I know it's what I want. Of course, brewing all grain means I'm brewing with lower cost ingredients (DME/LME makes batches at least double the cost of all grain for me). So if you REALLY want to reduce costs, try getting into all grain (BIAB is a good way to start on the cheap). Then you can get the yeast you want to use without worrying about the cost of it.

At least that's my 10 cents worth.

 

[MrManifesto]

I give as much info as I like to receive when I'm looking for information. When I'm learning something I want as much info as possible. In as much detail as possible. I like examples, in depth explanations, analogies, and citations, hopefully well worded.

"Cliff notes" aren't really helpful to me, until perhaps AFTER I've worked through the original material.

I figure folks who like detail can read it down to every nuance, folks who like citations, can read the citations, folks who like analogies can pick out the analogy....There's stuff there for everyone, skimmers and diggers alike.

I must be doing something right, considering my inbox is usually full with folks asking me even more questions, and help.

Cool story.

 

[DMartin]

Ease up, Mr. Man, we're all here to help each other.

 

[Yooper]

I give as much info as I like to receive when I'm looking for information. When I'm learning something I want as much info as possible. In as much detail as possible. I like examples, in depth explanations, analogies, and citations, hopefully well worded.

"Cliff notes" aren't really helpful to me, until perhaps AFTER I've worked through the original material.

I figure folks who like detail can read it down to every nuance, folks who like citations, can read the citations, folks who like analogies can pick out the analogy....There's stuff there for everyone, skimmers and diggers alike.

I must be doing something right, considering my inbox is usually full with folks asking me even more questions, and help.

And we certainly appreciate the information!

Maybe it would be helpful to answer a short response, with a link to the more lengthy response in another thread? That way the "cliff notes" people can get the point while the highly inquisitive can go deeper in the explanation? That way everybody gets information, while others don't sift through a wall of text. Just a thought!

 

[DMartin]

Or a bullet-point summary in bold at the end of the post, even.

 

[Rbeckett]

Um, I like the Revvy answers. I'm a noob and need to be "splained Lucy" or I just don't get it. I am still struggling with DME, UME and such so a little in depth help really helps. I wouldn't mind clicking on a link to read a full text version though, if that would keep every body happier. Either way I am an empiricist so I have to read the wall to feel like I got the answer. Thanks Revvy and everybody who guides a noob like me in my initial forays into brewing.
Bob