Dry Hopping : Hops and yeast at the beginning of fermentation ......

[CyberFox]

One interesting thing I've heard is that North Park, who is considered to make some of the most aromatic IPAs, dry hop around room temperature with the blow-off attached (so not under pressure) and use pumps to push the hops around for better extraction. They don't dry hop at yeast pitch, but they do dip hop for what it's worth. I think they are a good example of how you don't need to dry hop cold under pressure to get the best aroma.

It seems like the trend is to dry hop colder and colder and shorter and shorter. I imagine pretty soon the standard will be dry hopping for 10 minutes at 32 degrees. But yeah, I just like the idea of keeping it simple and dry hopping at yeast pitch. It's almost too easy.

 

[Pehlman17]

I often find myself toiling over this idea I seem to hear all the time of, "if you can smell it, then it's no longer in your beer". I think there are two different questions regarding this matter that often get conflated: 1. Is it true? and 2. Does it matter?. A yes to the former doesn't necessarily imply a yes to the latter. I couldn't imagine a situation where I were to walk into someone's home filled with wonderful aromas of food they've been cooking all day and having the thought, "Man, this meal is gonna be so bland. It's too bad they lost all that aroma." Of course I know that's somewhat apples to oranges, but it sort of underlines my main quandary here.

 

[mac_1103]

1. Is it true? and 2. Does it matter?

Of course it's true and it has to matter. The important questions are how much is lost? and how much does it matter? Or maybe, along the lines of your food analogy, how much can I spare?

 

[Pehlman17]

Of course it's true and it has to matter. The important questions are how much is lost? and how much does it matter? Or maybe, along the lines of your food analogy, how much can I spare?

Totally. And by 'does it matter?' I'm thinking more in terms of weighing cost/benefit or risk/reward. And again, these are just things I'm thinking about, not necessarily formed opinions. In this context, I wonder if the benefits of dry hopping early, particularly in regard to minimizing oxidation (not to mention also likely avoiding hop creep), outweigh the cost of whatever volatiles are lost in the process.

 

[HM-2]

I would guess that a lot of these as aroma compounds are perceptible at extremely low concentrations compared to the concentrations they're perceptable as flavour compounds.

The aroma perception threshold for something like Linalool is apparently about 7.5 ppb: for Geraniol it can be as low as 4 ppb. Conversely Geraniol has a flavour threshold of about 10 ppm, so it's what, like, 2,500 times as perceptable as an aroma than a flavour?

That would easily account for why you could smell a LOT of hops in blow-off without it perceptibly affecting your beer's flavour.

 

[mac_1103]

I put my dry hops in an empty keg that I purge with fermentation gas. So I know that I'm sacrificing some freshness and losing some volatiles. I just increase the dose to compensate.

 

[pocketmon]

It is like dip hopping, isn't it?

https://www.wildabouthops.nz/dip-hopping.html
https://byo.com/article/dip-hopping/

 

[Bramling Cross]

Now THIS is the type of thread I like to see! I actually posted about this exact subject not too long ago on here. Some had success dry hopping at yeast pitch and others didn't. There isn't really a concrete answer one way or the other.

One question I have is just how much aroma would escape? For example, if I dry hopped at yeast pitch with 12 ounces of hops, would the result be equivalent to dry hopping with something like 10 ounces of hops after fermentation? Pretty hard to tell!

I really like the idea of dry hopping at yeast pitch because it's an easy way to prevent oxidation and have hop creep run its course. Then again, the aroma might be blown out through the airlock, the hop oils might cling to and drop with the yeast, and it might cause grassy flavors...but it also might not! It would be awesome to see some proper experiments on this.

It also makes me wonder how dry hopping at yeast pitch might change the fermentation schedule. I might try dry hopping at yeast pitch, cold crashing on day 10, then kegging on day 13. If it turns out grassy with low aroma, then I have my answer.

Everything I know about dry hopping suggests that dry hopping at pitch is a less than ideal option. That said, given a range of sub-optimal choices, dry hopping at pitch may be the least bad option, depending upon the available hardware and available techniques.

If you think dry hopping at the pitch seems like a good idea, you might want to instead look at dip hopping. Unlike dry hopping at the pitch, I've actually tried this and have had good results with this technique on lager beers. I've only done it once with Liberty and was very impressed. It's something that I'd like to return to when I get serious about IPLs. Unfortunately, it, like dry hopping at the pitch, makes harvesting yeast a real mess--which is why I haven't pursued the technique with much vigor.

 

[CyberFox]

Everything I know about dry hopping suggests that dry hopping at pitch is a less than ideal option. That said, given a range of sub-optimal choices, dry hopping at pitch may be the least bad option, depending upon the available hardware and available techniques.

If you think dry hopping at the pitch seems like a good idea, you might want to instead look at dip hopping. Unlike dry hopping at the pitch, I've actually tried this and have had good results with this technique on lager beers. I've only done it once with Liberty and was very impressed. It's something that I'd like to return to when I get serious about IPLs. Unfortunately, it, like dry hopping at the pitch, makes harvesting yeast a real mess--which is why I haven't pursued the technique with much vigor.

I've also heard plenty about the supposed downsides to dry hopping at yeast pitch. I'll probably just have to try it because many seem to say what might or should happen instead of what does happen. It seems like very few people have tried it.

Dip hopping is yet another technique I've heard about. I might be missing something, but I'm not sure how it's any different than a lower temperature hop stand. Hopping beer is so simple yet so complex at the same time!

 

[day_trippr]

Aside from the obvious with the "dip hops" ending up inside the fermentor, I also don't get it's benefit vs a 165~170°F whirlpool - which keeps those hops out of the fermentor so the yeast can be cropped...

Cheers!

 

[hottpeper13]

I read a tech bulletin from the MBAA on this and the jist was that doing it at the start causes the bio transformation to change 2 of the terpenes responsible for tropical to go citrus and pine. Don't ask for a link cause 1- don't know how, 2- not a member any longer.
So I did a Idaho7 / Eldorado and it turned out to be one of the best WCIPA I've brewed, loaded with grapefruit pith and resin. In the fermenter is my CTZ/Cascade/Centennial westy with 40g centennial at wort racking (BRY-97).
I basically do a 3 week primary with all my beers and when dry hopping at pitch I rack clear beer into the keg.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

What volume of hops would you use to DIP hop on a 5g batch? Looks like about 2oz according to the article. Combine that with about a half gallon of wort (or water)?
Also, would you need to keep the DIP hop solution at that 150-170f range for the hour while you're waiting to add the main wort? I would assume not since a fermenter would not normally have the ability to heat to those temp levels.

 

[Andyandroid]

I'm watching for an answer to this...

 

[YeastFeast]

I also don't get it's benefit vs a 165~170°F whirlpool - which keeps those hops out of the fermentor so the yeast can be cropped...

Cheers!

That's what I was thinking, how is a dip hop different from a 170ºF whirlpool??

 

[mac_1103]

how is a dip hop different from a 170ºF whirlpool??

I think the hops go into the FV instead of the kettle.

 

[YeastFeast]

I think the hops go into the FV instead of the kettle.

I would think you'd get the exact same results though, whether it be the boil kettle or the fermenter. Guess you don't have the trub in the fermenter. Not sure that would make any difference?

 

[CyberFox]

Unless there's some sort of secret I'm missing, it would make more sense to me to just hop stand in the kettle at the target temp and leave the hops behind when you transfer to the fermenter.

 

[mac_1103]

Unless there's some sort of secret I'm missing

They could tell you, but then they... well, you know.

 

[day_trippr]

The process difference is the dip hops go in the fermentor - and one might expect there to be a character difference vs same temperature post-boil stand or whirlpool where the hops are left in the kettle.

Might be worth doing once just to see what that character difference might entail...

Cheers!

 

[hottpeper13]

In the paper I read they put 170* wort into the FV then immediately started filling it with chilled wort. I use Big Mouth and do the 170* whirlpool for 20 min then chill and pump wort after sitting for awhile. I don't get any grassyness and primary for 3 weeks,unless it clears prior to that. Using Voss it is clear in 2 weeks. I've not used more then 2 oz in 5 gal, and the current one is ~1.5 oz

 

[hooper]

I'm drinking Double Bypass (2 Hearted clone) that was dry hopped 112 grams at day 3. I can't tell the difference between it and the previous version dry hopped day 12. Both kegged on day 18.

 

[bwible]

This is a pretty spirited and intellectual discission. I’d like to take a big step back and ask - is this pitch dry hops with yeast method specific to or meant for hazy/NEIPA? I’ve only ever seen the word biotransformation used in one context - NEIPA.

I asked AI how biotransformation changes hops. This is mostly scientific and I’m no scientist. It says “more citrusy”. But it also says “tropical.”

AI Overview

Biotransformation alters hop flavor by converting and releasing flavor-active compounds through the enzymatic activity of yeast. This process involves the conversion of non-aromatic precursors into aromatic molecules like terpene alcohols and thiols, and can also shift the character of existing hop-derived terpenes.

Elaboration:

• Terpene Conversion:
  Yeast can convert certain hop terpenes, such as geraniol (rose-like), into others like beta-citronellol (lemongrass-like). This can change the overall aroma profile, making a "dank" hop taste more citrusy.
  
  
• Thiol Release:
  Yeast can release volatile thiols from their non-aromatic precursors, contributing notes of passionfruit and grapefruit. These compounds, like 3-mercaptohexan-1-ol (3MH), are highly aromatic and can be detected at very low concentrations, potentially significantly impacting the beer's flavor.
  
  
• β-Glucosidase:
  This enzyme, produced by some yeasts, can release terpene alcohols from their non-aromatic glycoside precursors. For example, it can release geraniol from geranyl glycoside.
  
  
• β-Lyase:
  This enzyme, also known as cysteine S-conjugate beta-lyase, releases thiols from precursors in malt and certain hop varieties. It's a key enzyme for creating the tropical aroma in many IPAs.
  
  
• Impact on Aroma:
  The released terpenes and thiols contribute to a range of aromas, including citrus, fruity, floral, and tropical notes, which can be highly desirable in various beer styles.

 

[ba-brewer]

is this pitch dry hops with yeast method specific to or meant for hazy/NEIPA?

Somewhere here on HBT(thought it was here) is a link or presentation on the result of dry hopping at different time. There are some comments about dry hop within the first 24 hour and you don't get the haze associated with NIEPA beers.