Dregs - How much is too much?

[burninator]

A friend and I brewed a beer about three weeks ago. We used about 40% rye, 15% dark wheat, and the rest was 2-row. Bittered with about 3.5 oz of old cheesy ahtanum.

On brew day, we pitched an old (very old) pack of Wyeast Lambic Blend, some small amount of S-33, dregs from JP Oro de Calabaza and Crooked Stave Vielle, as well as a culture from a bottle of CS Surette.

Then this week, I went out and got these:

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So my question is how much is too much? Can I go overboard with the dregs? Or, in general, is more biodiversity inherently better? I don't want to try this beer in a year, only to find I've muddled the culture, but at the same time, I'm having fun with this.

 

[sudbuddy]

so... what are you asking exactly?

 

[tagz]

I make beer... Tell me answer!

 

[burninator]

Guys, it takes me a minute. Sorry.

 

[beergolf]

I would probably save them for another brew. The CS beers have multiple strains in them already. So you probably have plenty of diversity.

Brew up another beer and add the Sofie and Orval dregs. Both have brett in them and work well.

 

[burninator]

I would probably save them for another brew. The CS beers have multiple strains in them already. So you probably have plenty of diversity.

Brew up another beer and add the Sofie and Orval dregs. Both have brett in them and work well.

Interesting. My thought was that, especially with the Orval, I might benefit from the brett, as well as the trappist yeast, if any is still viable. I can attest that the CS dregs are good. They're voracious, in fact. I pitched them into a Belgian pale with Belle Saison, and within 6 days I had a pellicle forming.

 

[gregkeller]

I like the idea of a high amount of diversity. I made a golden sour about a year ago that I called "world-wide sour" because i had bugs from all over the place in it. Pretty simple grain bill of pilsner and wheat, but man was it complex. I basically went on a sour beer kick, and searched out sour beers with viable bugs in them, and then pitched into my fermenter.

Now, I have no way of knowing what I may have gotten if I'd pitched fewer dregs. I have some crooked stave dregs building up now, and they are damn tasty, so might just keep them that way and pitch only them.

 

[orangehero]

If the hops were cheesy then they weren't old enough.

 

[burninator]

If the hops were cheesy then they weren't old enough.

I'm hoping they will be, by the time I get around to drinking it. And 3.5 oz in an 11 gallon batch didn't seem too consequential.

 

[sweetcell]

Can I go overboard with the dregs?

no, in my experience. i have a batch that was fermented using only dregs from about 15 different bottles. i'll let you know in another 6-7 months if that is "too much" (whatever that means). pretty sure it that it'll be a great beer.

Or, in general, is more biodiversity inherently better?

in general, yes.

I don't want to try this beer in a year, only to find I've muddled the culture, but at the same time, I'm having fun with this.

you've over-thinking it. add 'em all and have fun. or, better yet, get another batch going. in 12 months you'll be happy that you have more funky/sour beer.

 

[MaddBaggins]

I've got a jar in the beer fridge that currently has dregs from 3 JP bottles. I'll continue to add to it until I need it, then pitch it all.

 

[burninator]

no, in my experience. i have a batch that was fermented using only dregs from about 15 different bottles. i'll let you know in another 6-7 months if that is "too much" (whatever that means). pretty sure it that it'll be a great beer.


in general, yes.

I guess I should have made this a poll. :cross:

I definitely don't mean that you could overpitch. Just wonder whether there's a point where the competing cultures could cause some, as yet unimagined, poor outcome. Probably not, but this is uncharted territory for me.

you've over-thinking it. add 'em all and have fun. or, better yet, get another batch going. in 12 months you'll be happy that you have more funky/sour beer.

My thinking, to this point, has been in line with yours. I'm getting to try some really good beers I haven't had before, and I'm enjoying thinking about what to add to the carboy next.

I also like the idea of getting another batch going, but as I don't yet have a full volume setup yet (just a 10 gal MLT so far), I'm at the mercy of my friend's brewing schedule, and we won't have a joint brew day for several more months. For now, I'm confined to simpler sours that don't require a big 7 gallon boil, like berliners and petite saisons.

 

[sweetcell]

have you considered using DME to brew a sour on your stove? a mix of wheat and pilsen DME is a good combo.

 

[feinbera]

have you considered using DME to brew a sour on your stove? a mix of wheat and pilsen DME is a good combo.

I second this; I'm only just getting into the sour game myself, but in all my obsessive reading before I brewed my first batch, there was pretty much universal agreement that the grainbill is just the blank canvas on which the bugs paint, and that, as long as you didn't totally screw it up, wort production has little effect on the final outcome, so doing an all or at least partial extract batch shouldn't be a problem.

Do a five- or six-pound mini-mash, boil your two or three gallons of wort on the stove, then add extract in the last 10 minutes to get your fermentables up. You'll get some practice in on that mash tun, and you'll have a second sour batch half-way done before your next full brew day.

 

[burninator]

have you considered using DME to brew a sour on your stove? a mix of wheat and pilsen DME is a good combo.

Oh, yeah, and I may do that later in the summer, if we can't get together again to brew. I don't mean "berliners and petite saisons" disparagingly. I really like these styles. They'll be inexpensive, thirst-quenching, suited for summer brewing, and they'll be relatively quick to turn around.

For that purpose, I have a mixed saison culture and a wild lacto culture bubbling away, just waiting for their chance to work.

 

[gregkeller]

As for the DME route, you could probably just use straight wheat DME. Isn't the wheat DME a 60/40 or 50/50 blend of wheat/2-row? Seems like that, and maybe some simple steeping grains would get you a nice golden sour.

 

[burninator]

Thanks, guys, I appreciate the tips.

That said, I'm picking up a burner and kettle today, so no more "stinking up the house" with my stovetop brewing, anyway.

Now, to the original question, as I've pitched a mix of wild yeast and bugs, as well as commercial strains, is there any concern about what additional yeasts would play well together? For instance, the Sofie picture above is, presumably, fermented with a saison-style yeast, and the Orval a trappist yeast, in addition to the brett and bugs that should come along.

 

[sweetcell]

is there any concern about what additional yeasts would play well together?

nope.

your brew is over 3 weeks old. primary is done, simple sugars are done. the saison yeast in the Sofie and the trappist in the Orval will have nothing to eat, they'll just go dormant and will not contribute to the beer. however, both beers contain brett and those lil' buggers will get to work, slowly. nothing wrong with diversity of brett and bugs, IMO, but you might not be able to distinctly identify what the orval brett contributed vs. what the sofie brett did... but the combined effect, along with all the other bugs, should be great.

and even if you were pitching the orval and sofie at the start of fermentation, there aren't many cells in there and frankly, belgian yeasts play well with each other.

 

[burninator]

your brew is over 3 weeks old. primary is done, simple sugars are done.

This raises another question. Primary finished quickly, yes. It churned for about 3 days, and then died down. The beer was almost completely still for about a week, and then fermentation kicked in again. What's the general cycle here? Am I looking at some wild sacc? Lacto? Sherry yeast from the lambic blend?

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[sweetcell]

This raises another question. Primary finished quickly, yes. It churned for about 3 days, and then died down. The beer was almost completely still for about a week, and then fermentation kicked in again. What's the general cycle here? Am I looking at some wild sacc? Lacto? Sherry yeast from the lambic blend?

one possibility: brett typically shows a one-week lag (vs. sacch, whose lag phase is typically measured in hours). i suspect that the old lambic blend didn't have much viable sacch left and your dregs would also have contained very little viable sacch if any. the sacch did what it could then dropped. because fermentation wasn't completed and there were still (relatively) simple sugars left in the beer, the brett got a stab at primary fermentation.

that lag phase likely allowed the LAB bugs to munch on some simple sugars and create some quick lactic acid before the brett got going.

 

[burninator]

Sounds reasonable. We added S-33 to the mix, but probably not enough to make a huge difference. For what it's worth, with 5 gallons in a 6 gallon carboy, primary very nearly blew off.

 

[burninator]

you've over-thinking it. add 'em all and have fun. or, better yet, get another batch going. in 12 months you'll be happy that you have more funky/sour beer.

This thread seems to have pretty well run its course, but I'm going to add a couple more comments/questions.

First, pitched the Sofie dregs last week. Poured the beer, dumped a little wort into the bottle, swirled, and pitched.

That beer was good. Not really sour, except the slightest hint as it warmed, but it was incredibly funky, with clove and banana playing a big part. The label mentions vanilla on the finish. I think they're dreaming.

Next, I'm liking the idea you mention above. If I give my beer another month or two in primary, and then rack, should I just dump a new beer into the carboy, or harvest a couple of pints and re-pitch? I recognize the convention for sacc only beers, but wonder if there's a different approach needed here. Thinking a Belgian blonde might be nice in a year or two.

 

[burninator]

Just thought I'd offer up some resolution, of sorts, to the original question.

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[soundguy]

Not sure if it's the right thing to do, but I usually dump most of the yeast cake / trub out and add fresh wort with some sacc straight into the carboy.

 

[Gus_13]

Belgian Lambic brewers have upwards of 100+ different species of micro-organisms in their beers. The more the better for a wild ale!

 

[burninator]

Meant to update this a few days ago. After growing several generations, I felt confident enough to pitch a bit of sour wort worn my homegrown lacto culture in. Not sure if the bus will benefit the brew at this stage, but it at least adds a bit of bright acidity. Came home to see this the next day.

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