Double Boil a 6 gallon Carboy with Wort?

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i did some work with glass in a science class in grade 9. glass won't shatter because of the heat. we would heat a glass tube up over a gas burner and bend it into shapes. what you didn't want to do was drop it into cold water. the thermal shock would cause it to break. i split my thumb open trying to bend the glass when it wasn't ready to form.

how do you think glass is formed? you heat it up to around 1800f (not 100% sure on the temp) and then in becomes close to a honey consistency and you can mold it. you can also cool it down slowly and it goes back to the way it was. no issues at all.
 
JDGator said:
i did some work with glass in a science class in grade 9. glass won't shatter because of the heat. we would heat a glass tube up over a gas burner and bend it into shapes. what you didn't want to do was drop it into cold water. the thermal shock would cause it to break. i split my thumb open trying to bend the glass when it wasn't ready to form.

how do you think glass is formed? you heat it up to around 1800f (not 100% sure on the temp) and then in becomes close to a honey consistency and you can mold it. you can also cool it down slowly and it goes back to the way it was. no issues at all.
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Those are completely different conditions. First, I'm betting the glass was pretty thin, so easy to heat quickly and evenly. Second, you didn't have any liquid in or around the glass. Sorry, but you're talking apples to oranges.
 
Ryush806 said:
That's the problem. A double boiler physically cannot boil what is inside the "inner pot" (carboy in this case)
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I thought the point of a double boiler was to keep what is inside from direct contact with a scorching heat source. I do think that if you heat the outer liquid to boiling and keep it there long enough the inner pot would boil also.

Hence the hot break volcano.

Also if the brew is going to work properly the bittering hop additions need to be boiled.
 
Id rather clean an extra pot or take an extra step than risk injuring myself or others and avoid destroying anything in my home or yard. Though the idea may not be a good idea, it has got a lot of us thinking about why or why not we do things. That is why I love this site.
 
kh54s10 said:
I thought the point of a double boiler was to keep what is inside from direct contact with a scorching heat source. I do think that if you heat the outer liquid to boiling and keep it there long enough the inner pot would boil also.

Hence the hot break volcano.

Also if the brew is going to work properly the bittering hop additions need to be boiled.
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You are correct, that is the point of the double boiler. But the inner pot will not boil unless you have a liquid with a much higher boiling point on the outside. If you just have water on the outside it will get to a max of 212 F. The wort will therefore get to a max of 212 F. Just being at the boiling point will not cause a liquid to boil. Additional heat must be added to cause the water to change from the liquid phase to the vapor phase. Since there is no temperature differential (212 - 212 = 0) at this point, no heat transfer will occur so no phase change will occur. Hence no boil. Like someone said earlier, this issue is compounded further by the fact that the boiling point of wort will be slightly higher than pure water anyway.
 
JDGator said:
i did some work with glass in a science class in grade 9. glass won't shatter because of the heat. we would heat a glass tube up over a gas burner and bend it into shapes. what you didn't want to do was drop it into cold water. the thermal shock would cause it to break. i split my thumb open trying to bend the glass when it wasn't ready to form.

how do you think glass is formed? you heat it up to around 1800f (not 100% sure on the temp) and then in becomes close to a honey consistency and you can mold it. you can also cool it down slowly and it goes back to the way it was. no issues at all.
Click to expand...
You can't fire polish non silicate glass or heat and bend it with out causing stress fractures. To manipulate by fire you have to raise to temp on the whole object. That's how the guys that flare out the tops of bottles do it. Its just the difference in the type of glass. Pyrex can be fire polished with a propane torch. I snap and fire glass rods at work once a year and fire polish the edges of beaker when needed.
 
So transferrring to the fermentor is more work and more dangerous then dealing with boilover, dms, breakage/safety issues, "line(ing) a carboy w/ an IC (so you must be using a 20G kettle, because no IC around a Carboy is going to fit into a standard 10-15G kettle or a keggle)...etc...

All in the name of "saving money and better homebrew", but really it does neither.

Troll on. This site cracks me up.
 
Ryush806 said:
You are correct, that is the point of the double boiler. But the inner pot will not boil unless you have a liquid with a much higher boiling point on the outside. If you just have water on the outside it will get to a max of 212 F. The wort will therefore get to a max of 212 F. Just being at the boiling point will not cause a liquid to boil. Additional heat must be added to cause the water to change from the liquid phase to the vapor phase. Since there is no temperature differential (212 - 212 = 0) at this point, no heat transfer will occur so no phase change will occur. Hence no boil. Like someone said earlier, this issue is compounded further by the fact that the boiling point of wort will be slightly higher than pure water anyway.
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I am no physicist but 212 is boiling temp. I don't know if wort takes a bit more, but I see foam rise in my pot before it boils. So I still feel the risk of an exploding carboy or spewing hot break is not worth the risk to reinvent this wheel.
 
head_dunce said:
Ha, you guys are too much. So if I take one of these cheap pint glasses I've got here, put it in a pot of water, then boil it all, it'll crack and explode?
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Out of ALL the reasons in this thread that demonstrate this is a really dumb idea, why do you only choose this one to respond to? Low-hanging fruit?

What about the fact that your wort won't boil? Or the fact that the narrow opening of the carboy is going to basically prevent DMS from escaping? (I hope you like the taste of cooked vegetables in your beer) What about the fact that glass carboys are inherently dangerous to begin with, and now you're trying to operate it outside of the use it was designed for?

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd trust you with the tools you'd need to do this. You don't seem to have much life experience.
 
head_dunce said:
With the carboy is inside a metal container filled with water, if the carboy broke, not much would happen aside from some lost money and time. The carboy would have to be held inside the metal container because it would obviously float otherwise. The metal container could also be lined with an immersion cooler.

The venting for a rolling boil might get interesting, thanks for the info on DMS. I'd think starting with just trying to boil a couple gallons in the carboy would be the place to start. Some type of attachment to the carboy may need to be dreamed up?

Hummm... I'm going to have to find some metal and pull out the torch.
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You are CRAZY!! Just my 2 cents.
 
TheZymurgist said:
Those are completely different conditions. First, I'm betting the glass was pretty thin, so easy to heat quickly and evenly. Second, you didn't have any liquid in or around the glass. Sorry, but you're talking apples to oranges.
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No i'm comparing apple to apples. Thick glass or thin glass behave the same way. Lol. And what difference does the water make? It would only take longer to heat up?? Not sure you really understand the properties of glass. It's also known as a superliquid because it's properties are not the same as a solid. Glass windows will actually sag to the bottom. If you cut the glass window, you will see its thicker at the bottom then top.
 
Well not to be rude but we did it in grade 9 class. Lol we took a tube of glass, heated the center with a gas burner, and bent it. Held it for 10-15 min and it was good to go. Drank water through it.
 
kh54s10 said:
I am no physicist but 212 is boiling temp. I don't know if wort takes a bit more, but I see foam rise in my pot before it boils. So I still feel the risk of an exploding carboy or spewing hot break is not worth the risk to reinvent this wheel.
Click to expand...

This is probably a little OT, but the foam you see is the O2, CO2, chlorine etc coming out of solution because their solubility drops rapidly as waters boiling point is approached. The surface tension of the wort will somewhat contain the gasses as foam but the real volcano show would only happen if you actually started boiling.
 
JDGator said:
Glass windows will actually sag to the bottom. If you cut the glass window, you will see its thicker at the bottom then top.
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:off:
That has been pretty thoroughly disproved. You can look it up if you want to spend more time on it, but the glass you refer to was pressed with a roller, which left it thicker at one end than the other. There is glass from ancient Roman times that hasn't "sagged to the bottom." We make glass differently now, and it doesn't sag to the bottom.

Ok here's a gimme, just for fun: http://www.glassnotes.com/WindowPanes.html
 
boydsbitchinbrews said:
:off:
That has been pretty thoroughly disproved. You can look it up if you want to spend more time on it, but the glass you refer to was pressed with a roller, which left it thicker at one end than the other. There is glass from ancient Roman times that hasn't "sagged to the bottom." We make glass differently now, and it doesn't sag to the bottom.

Ok here's a gimme, just for fun: http://www.glassnotes.com/WindowPanes.html
Click to expand...

Ya you may be right. I've never actuall studied that or even really tried to. I did hear that back in high school.
 
JDGator said:
Well not to be rude but we did it in grade 9 class. Lol we took a tube of glass, heated the center with a gas burner, and bent it. Held it for 10-15 min and it was good to go. Drank water through it.
Click to expand...

and you sliced your thumb when it went bad. Wonder what happens when a carboy boiling experiment goes bad? ;)
 
There are numerous types of glass. Not all will react the same under the same conditions. Kind of like metal. Sure metal is metal but there are many types and they each have their own characteristics. Aaaand it looks as though we have resorted to name calling...I am out!
 
deepcdan99 said:
There are numerous types of glass. Not all will react the same under the same conditions. Kind of like metal. Sure metal is metal but there are many types and they each have their own characteristics. Aaaand it looks as though we have resorted to name calling...I am out!
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^the glass part. Numb nuts is a perfectly acceptable name to call one another. :D But really, I say whoever thinks carboys are invincible, should attempt to double boil a batch of beer in one. Remember to really fire the burner up for a good hot break, ya need that, and wrap the immersion chiller tightly around the glass for a good cold break, those are crucial too. Don't forget to post pics, as I'm not the first guy to request them.
 
[edited out the quote...]

We better watch out... Yooper's keeping the peace :D
 
Sorry but I have lost interest in doing a double boil with a carboy....I am thinking about my Brew-Magic I bought this week...:p
 
Guys, this guy came here asking if something would be possible or a good idea, everyone told him no and no and gave reasons why and his response was to be condescending and insulting before saying he was going to go ahead with it anyway. I'd call it a closed case at this point.

I just hope he's a good enough sport to post about the failure and/or injuries later so we can layer on some "told you so"

(OP, if you think we're all being ridiculous sissies, do a google image search for carboy injuries or carboy accidents. If you can wade through the gore, blood and stitches, maybe you'll think twice about this.)
 
JDGator said:
Well not to be rude but we did it in grade 9 class. Lol we took a tube of glass, heated the center with a gas burner, and bent it. Held it for 10-15 min and it was good to go. Drank water through it.
Click to expand...
I believe you. I've done it too but its not the same type of glass as beer bottles and carboys. That's all I'm saying.
 
Nargan said:
Guys, this guy came here asking if something would be possible or a good idea, everyone told him no and no and gave reasons why and his response was to be condescending and insulting before saying he was going to go ahead with it anyway. I'd call it a closed case at this point.

I just hope he's a good enough sport to post about the failure and/or injuries later so we can layer on some "told you so"

(OP, if you think we're all being ridiculous sissies, do a google image search for carboy injuries or carboy accidents. If you can wade through the gore, blood and stitches, maybe you'll think twice about this.)
Click to expand...

Ha ha, out of curiosity, I did goog search....:eek:. But I will still use my carboys safely and cautiously. Oh and my Sabco fermenters, I just don't have enough of those yet.
 
Hey, I don't know if that namecall from JDGator was for me, but if so I'm kinda bummed I missed it! I have thick skin ;)

JDGator, just so ya know, all I was meaning to imply was that your own experience reflected the risk associated with heating glass, and the OP is endeavoring to heat a much less finely crafted piece of glass that's much more massive and potentially destructive. I think it's cool that you did something like that in HS science. My HS science experience was not as "enriching" to say the least.
 
This thread is simply fascinating. Anyone know if the OP ever tried this universally discouraged technique?
 
Bump.
I have nothing nasty to say about the OP, they clearly are just brainstorming on an idea that they believe could prove to be convenient.
I just don't want them or anyone else to take a trip to the hospital.
But like I said before: since they are going to do it anyways, how about some pictures?
 
Hey would everybody just chill out. . .

. . . I want to know if this guy did it or not. I know it sounds crazy, and is very likely to not work for a ton of reasons, but innovation only happens when foolish people to crazy things that have no chance of working. Even failure results in learning, as a matter of fact, it is the only think that ever does.


I also want to see pictures and read stories about epic failure!
 
LovesIPA said:
So you're supposed to buy one of these for every batch you brew? If you brew weekly I'd need three or four of these things?

I think plastic buckets are a whole lot cheaper.
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No you're supposed to do whatever works for you. :cheers:

I pointed out an elegant and safe solution to the OPs goals. Well maybe not the cost savings goal but he wasn't being realistic about that anyway.

You have different needs. Sounds like you have a great solution. What's your beef?
 

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