Double Boil a 6 gallon Carboy with Wort?

[head_dunce]

So I'm new to this, only on my 5th 5 gallon batch (and loving it!) I've already upgraded to a 105k BTU jet burner, just made my own wort cooler with some copper and a pond pump, and seeing that a lot of thinking out of the box can save money and make better homebrew.

I've read all about not putting boiling wort into a carboy which only makes sense. But my wife makes candles, so I'm pretty use to playing with double boilers, etc.

I'm just wondering if setting up some type of double boiler / water jacket outer, around say some 6 galling carboy, filling both them at the same time - same water temp - then starting the boil, would that work? Anyone tried it?

I've used a single fermentor for a few brews, as per the suggestions I've read here, and they turned out great. I'd think just boiling in a carboy that was large enough to also ferment in would save time, cleaning, etc...

The double boiler thing with candles works really well because the wax never gets hotter than boiling water. I'd think that would also apply to the glass carboy if done right?

 

[deepcdan99]

The most obvious problem I see with boiling in a carboy is the smell neck size. When you boil you are not only boiling off water, you are also boiling off DMS (someone correct me if I am wrong) which can cause off flavors. A restricted neck will not allow enough ventilation and cause that vapor to drip back down into your wort.

Read about DMS here ----> http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

 

[kh54s10]

It sound like another carboy disaster thread coming. I would not even think about trying it! Then again I would not even take a glass carboy if it was offered for free! Too dangerous for me....

 

[kombat]

I'm confused - are you seriously describing boiling wort inside a glass carboy??

I would NEVER try that! That's a recipe for disaster! Aside from the DMS, hot break, and boilover issues, there's the obvious risk of shattering the carboy.

Use a stainless kettle/pot!

 

[deepcdan99]

there's the obvious risk of shattering the carboy.

Well, and then there's that!

 

[RM-MN]

You need a rolling boil of your wort to isomerize the hop oils for bittering and to drive off the DMS. I don't believe you can get a rolling boil with your carboy in a double boiler.

 

[unionrdr]

I think the one thing folks don't realize with carboys is that they are not Pyrex. That is to say,they're not tempered heat proof glass. But rather,just plain glass. Breaks easy & can't take much heat. Don't do it!

 

[flars]

The hot break volcano would be very impressive if you could SAFELY get the wort to boil inside the carboy. Definitely not worth the attempt even with a full protective suit.

 

[head_dunce]

With the carboy is inside a metal container filled with water, if the carboy broke, not much would happen aside from some lost money and time. The carboy would have to be held inside the metal container because it would obviously float otherwise. The metal container could also be lined with an immersion cooler.

The venting for a rolling boil might get interesting, thanks for the info on DMS. I'd think starting with just trying to boil a couple gallons in the carboy would be the place to start. Some type of attachment to the carboy may need to be dreamed up?

Hummm... I'm going to have to find some metal and pull out the torch.

 

[broadbill]

What is the reason you would want to do this? It makes sense for heating materials that could "break" (chocolate, wax, cream soups) but not wort.

Looks like a solution in need of a problem. And not a very good solution at that.

 

[Dolomieu]

I make candles too. I have also cut lots of bottles, bombers, and growlers for those candles. Not only is the glass of a carboy not glass, but there is a lot of inconsistencies in its thickness. Plus some even have air bubbles in them. This is a very bad idea.

 

[TheZymurgist]

With the carboy is inside a metal container filled with water, if the carboy broke, not much would happen aside from some lost money and time. The carboy would have to be held inside the metal container because it would obviously float otherwise. The metal container could also be lined with an immersion cooler.

The venting for a rolling boil might get interesting, thanks for the info on DMS. I'd think starting with just trying to boil a couple gallons in the carboy would be the place to start. Some type of attachment to the carboy may need to be dreamed up?

Hummm... I'm going to have to find some metal and pull out the torch.

Sounds like a whole lot of trouble to fix a problem that doesn't exist. The only thing you'd be eliminating is transferring from the boil kettle to the carboy. So, as the others have asked, what's the point? Why build a complicated system with a huge amount of risk only to eliminate a step that takes five minutes? Even if you did line the boil container with an immersion cooler, you'd have to cool the boil water in addition to the wort, which would add a lot of time. Oh, and heat the extra liquid also, which would waste propane and take more time.

Not to mention the fact that you first need to find a boil kettle large enough, then rig a cooling system and a way to secure the carboy inside.

 

[fixitoscar]

With the carboy is inside a metal container filled with water, if the carboy broke, not much would happen aside from some lost money and time. The carboy would have to be held inside the metal container because it would obviously float otherwise. The metal container could also be lined with an immersion cooler.

The venting for a rolling boil might get interesting, thanks for the info on DMS. I'd think starting with just trying to boil a couple gallons in the carboy would be the place to start. Some type of attachment to the carboy may need to be dreamed up?

Hummm... I'm going to have to find some metal and pull out the torch.

heat cycling the glass will weaken it. So lets say you get away with boiling once or twice. The next time you go to lift it when its full of fermented beer it shatters and you spring a few leaks of your own.
Use a pot to boil.

 

[head_dunce]

Less chance of infection and less overall stuff to own and clean

 

[TheZymurgist]

Less chance of infection and less overall stuff to own and clean

Chances of infection are slim to none if you simply dip the racking cane in starsan. And definitely not less stuff to own and clean. I'm sure you already own a racking cane, and if you don't, they're really cheap. You'll still need a huge boil kettle, and a lot more copper than a regular immersion chiller.

Try it if you want, but I think most here would agree that you'll end up spending more money, taking more time, and not seeing enough of a benefit.

For what it's worth, I've been brewing for three years, about a batch per month, and transferring from kettle to carboy with not a single infection.

 

[kh54s10]

Less chance of infection and less overall stuff to own and clean

The size of a kettle large enough to fit a carboy inside without touching is going to be $$$$.

Buy a 10 gallon kettle and install a valve. There is little risk of infection and IMO far less equipment than you are talking about. It takes me maybe 10 minutes to clean my boil kettle.

But if you are not afraid or 212 degree hot break blasting out of the top of the carboy, have your next of kin tell us how it went!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

This is a joke, right? Surely you understand that unless glass is designed and tempered to take temperature extremes (i.e. Pyrex), it will shatter (possibly explode) when it's that hot.

 

[head_dunce]

For what it's worth, I've been brewing for three years, about a batch per month, and transferring from kettle to carboy with not a single infection.

Congrats to you.
I think something weird happened to my third one (FG was too low, beyond what the yeast should be able to do alone) Oddly that seemed to be everyone's favorite anyway.

I just picture this ending up like a bread machine if I cobble something together right -- put in the ingredients, click a few buttons, wait for beer. It comes from the disease of writing computer code all day and playing with power tools all night. Leaving everything in the carboy is a lot less mechanical work, easier machine to build!

 

[head_dunce]

This is a joke, right? Surely you understand that unless glass is designed and tempered to take temperature extremes (i.e. Pyrex), it will shatter (possibly explode) when it's that hot.

Glass explode at 212 degree? Really dude?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Glass explode at 212 degree? Really dude?

Really? Is that what you got out of it? Do you have a grasp of basic high school physics?

 

[kh54s10]

If you are going to try this, forget the carboy and get a borosilicate (sp) glass liner and be prepared to spend big $$$$.

 

[boydster]

This can't be a serious thread... Less chance of infection? No. Less stuff to own? How do you figure? You need to transfer the beer to a bottling bucket and into bottles, or you need to keg it. Either way, you will be doing a transfer, thus still a risk of infection and requiring the use of a racking cane and hopefully a bottling wand. You will have a carboy, a wort chiller, a boiling pot. I just don't see what equipment you are hoping to avoid.

When the wort is still hot, you have just finished pasteurizing it. You are (again, hopefully) transferring it into a cleaned and sanitized carboy. Your wort is safe at this point. It will begin its metamorphosis into the magical elixir we call beer and you can rest easy knowing that it has been doing this for thousands of years, much of that time with far more primitive tools than we use today, and it still made beer.

Spend the time and energy you were budgeting for this project instead on good cleaning and sanitation practices. You will be pleased with your end result, I promise.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Congrats to you.
I think something weird happened to my third one (FG was too low, beyond what the yeast should be able to do alone) Oddly that seemed to be everyone's favorite anyway.

I just picture this ending up like a bread machine if I cobble something together right -- put in the ingredients, click a few buttons, wait for beer. It comes from the disease of writing computer code all day and playing with power tools all night. Leaving everything in the carboy is a lot less mechanical work, easier machine to build!

I totally understand that, and I get where you're coming from. But you still have the problem of using glass that can't handle boiling temps, which basically makes this impossible. I also stand firm in the thought that designing and building something like this is much more difficult than the payoff. If you want to build something for the sake of building something, take up woodworking. Otherwise, you're just creating a Rube Goldberg machine for beer making.

 

[flars]

Boil the wort in a kettle with a spigot. Ferment in the kettle. Bottle from the kettle/fermentor. Time saved.
Or buy this; http://www.gizmag.com/williamswarn-beer-brewing-machine/19487/

 

[head_dunce]

Ha, you guys are too much. So if I take one of these cheap pint glasses I've got here, put it in a pot of water, then boil it all, it'll crack and explode?

I get what you guys are saying, but this isn't much time or money to try. An old steel drum I'd bet I can get for free, already have some scrap metal laying around that I can weld in to hold the carboy. I guess I just like to play with tools more than most.

No need to continue to bash this idea, I'll post pictures when I get bored enough to give it a shot and see what happens.

 

[head_dunce]

Boil the wort in a kettle with a spigot. Ferment in the kettle. Bottle from the kettle/fermentor. Time saved.
Or buy this; http://www.gizmag.com/williamswarn-beer-brewing-machine/19487/

The WilliamsWarn brewing machine is currently only available in New Zealand, although its makers hope to expand to the Australian and American markets soon. It sells for NZ$5,660 (US$4,577), plus NZ$39.50 (US$32) for the ingredients for each batch of beer.

:cross:

 

[TheZymurgist]

Ha, you guys are too much. So if I take one of these cheap pint glasses I've got here, put it in a pot of water, then boil it all, it'll crack and explode?

I get what you guys are saying, but this isn't much time or money to try. An old steel drum I'd bet I can get for free, already have some scrap metal laying around that I can weld in to hold the carboy. I guess I just like to play with tools more than most.

No need to continue to bash this idea, I'll post pictures when I get bored enough to give it a shot and see what happens.

Good luck. Next time you've already made your mind up, you might as well just post that you're going to try it, rather than looking for input and asking whether it will work. My parents always told me growing up, if you can't take no for an answer, don't ask. We're all just trying to help, but you obviously made your decision before asking.

 

[kh54s10]

As I already said, after the hot break forces it's way out of the neck of the carboy, not to mention trapping DMS in the brew, scalding everyone in the room, have your next of kin tell us about it.

A video would be nice.

 

[Ryush806]

Ha, you guys are too much. So if I take one of these cheap pint glasses I've got here, put it in a pot of water, then boil it all, it'll crack and explode?

Its not the heat that's going to do it. The glass carboy may be able to withstand 212 F. The problem to me is the water vapor coming off the wort. I'd have to do some calculations to make sure, but my instinct tells me that the pressure build up inside the carboy would exceed what the narrow mouth could vent.

You also have another HUGE problem with the practicality of this idea. The water outside the carboy will not exceed 212 F. That will heat your wort to 212 F. It takes more energy to actual boil wort than just the energy to heat it up to the boiling point. The driving force for heat transfer is a temperature difference. So...with water on the outside of the carboy at 212 max and wort inside the carboy at 212, you get a temperature difference of 212 - 212 = 0. Aka no heat transfer and no boil. It is physically impossible to boil your wort in a double boiler with water on the outside.

 

[hogwash]

I agree with what most everyone else is saying as far as what may happen but I say go for it anyway!

 

[head_dunce]

I agree with what most everyone else is saying as far as what may happen but I say go for it anyway!

Thanks!

It's like you guys never made drano bombs before or something, eesh...

 

[luke_d]

I'm just imagining a hot break in a carboy...volcano status.

 

[Ryush806]

I'm just imagining a hot break in a carboy...volcano status.

Won't even make it to that point. The only danger for this guy is burning himself on his double boiler or breaking his carboy before he ever gets it in there. As much as I think a hot break volcano would be epic, just not gonna happen. Now if he direct fired his carboy, all bets are off...

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I've had mini breakanos when boiling starter wort in the flask. Directly on a hot plate, of course. (prepare for sarcasm... now) How does he do it? you ask. Pyrex, my friends. Pyrex.

 

[kh54s10]

Won't even make it to that point. The only danger for this guy is burning himself on his double boiler or breaking his carboy before he ever gets it in there. As much as I think a hot break volcano would be epic, just not gonna happen. Now if he direct fired his carboy, all bets are off...

If the wort boils there will be hot break. It is going somewhere. I bet it would build pressure and spew!

 

[Ryush806]

If the wort boils there will be hot break. It is going somewhere. I bet it would build pressure and spew!

That's the problem. A double boiler physically cannot boil what is inside the "inner pot" (carboy in this case)

 

[Dolomieu]

I've had mini breakanos when boiling starter wort in the flask. Directly on a hot plate, of course. (prepare for sarcasm... now) How does he do it? you ask. Pyrex, my friends. Pyrex.

They make boil beads for this reason. we use them occasionally in the lab, but it seems like they would be a PITA for our application.

I do a similar thing on my stir/hot plate. It's nice to be able to heat and mix in the sugar and walk away. Then when its done boiling i use a pyrex casserole dish, put it on the stir plate with the flask back in it. Add water and ice and walk away. cools down pretty. Made starters a breeze.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

They make boil beads for this reason. we use them occasionally in the lab, but it seems like they would be a PITA for our application.

Fermcap S pretty much does away with it for me. But if you forget to add a drop, and walk away, it gets messy.

 

[chickens4life]

the issue with boiling in a double boiler is compounded when boiling wort, which actually has a BP higher than the water you would be using to heat it.

but a serious suggestion, just boil and ferment in the same 6-8 gallon stainless steel pot, every thing gets sanitized by the boil and you have a perfect fermentation vessel right there. just rack to bottling bucket or keg after fermentation is done, only one transfer.

 

[unionrdr]

The lid on the kettle isn't going to seal as well as a fermentation vessel. Yes,they did open fermentation for centuries,but they also lost a lot of batches. It was mostly hit or miss. I've spent the money on what I need to do it with what we like to call the right way. Not the cheapest,least involved way humanly possible. You can only go so cheap on something before ruining it. That's one thing I've learned in close to 6 decades.