Does your bittering hop really matter?

[wowbeeryum]

When you read hop descriptions they mostly/entirely focus on the aroma and flavor of the hop. If the initial hop addition (say at 60 minutes) only yields bitterness, does the specific hop you use really matter (assuming you get the same IBUs)?

Say you take two beers, both with the same grain bill, mid/late additions, and IBUs but one is bittered with Columbus and the other Nelson Sauvin. Would you tell a difference? How so?

Besides AA% and being able to use a smaller quantity of hops to bitter, do certain hops used at bittering produce better tasting beer?

Something that I've been wondering about recently.

 

[wailingguitar]

I am personally of the opinion that there is very little, if any, difference and try to use high alpha hops for bittering whenever it is practicable. Conventional wisdom has said "use hops with low cohumulone for bittering", however Brauwelt International did an article on that a few years ago:

http://barthhaaschina.com/uploadfile/2011/04/2011042116024874.pdf

 

[Yooper]

Sometimes!

As an example, magnum is pretty neutral and I couldn't pick it out as a bittering hop in a German, English, or American beer as the variety used. But if you used chinook in a German beer as the bittering hop, I certainly could. There are some "harshness" characteristic with US hops like chinook and cluster.

The key is the levels of cohumulone. That gives the perception of "harshness" to a hop flavor, especially in bitterness.

Noble hops (hallertauer, tettnanger, etc) are well known for their smoothness, and in a German lager I could easily guess if a non-noble hop variety was used for bittering (unless it was a "clean" neutral hop like magnum). That's because they are low in cohumulone, and harsh tasting beta acids as well.

Here's a cool reference on all the commonly varieties of hops and the beta/alpha acids and cohumulone (and other oils) contents: http://www.usahops.org/userfiles/fi...ety Manual - English (updated March 2011).pdf

Hop varieties high in cohumulone have a bit of a harshness behind the bitterness, so they wouldn't be used in some beers (like a pilsner) where it would be noticed and out of place. When considering a bittering hop variety, it's important to look at the cohumulone levels and the beta/alpha acid ratio. I think the beta/alpha acid ratio is probably a good indicator of the "smoothness" of the bitterness of the variety.

The reason I said "sometimes", though, is that for most beers you will find it really doesn't matter. It's more the delicate lagers where you want a smooth but firm bitterness that you'd be able to find "something" amiss. You won't be able to say, "Oh, they bittered with summit- yuck!" but instead there will be a perceptible harshness or a bit of something not quite as smooth as bittering with a noble hop variety, or at least one clean like a noble hop variety, if that makes sense.

 

[tre9er]

Excellent link Yooper. This sheds some light on the subject for me as well. I have a lb. of Columbus and a lb. of Nugget right now and while my Columbus is higher alpha, the higher level of cohumulone means I wouldn't choose it as the bittering hop in light, clean beers but probably more for pale ales and larger beers.

 

[wowbeeryum]

i scanned that link and nearly all the hops (with the exception of magnum) seemed to have very similar percentages of cohumulone. what percentage is considered high, what is low? and it does make sense to me that a lighter beer will be more susceptible to harsh bittering hops.

 

[tre9er]

i scanned that link and nearly all the hops (with the exception of magnum) seemed to have very similar percentages of cohumulone. what percentage is considered high, what is low? and it does make sense to me that a lighter beer will be more susceptible to harsh bittering hops.

From what I saw low is below 20 and high is in the 30's. Nugget was low 20's and Columbus in the high 20's to 30's. I'd say the closer to 20 you are the less harsh.

 

[bobbrews]

I just think Columbus is much more versatile than hops like Magnum or Warrior. You can use it at any stage and it's gonna be awesome. You can control any possible harshness by employing a FWH or simply by using less bittering hops and more late additions.

I can't say the same for hops like Nelson or Citra, which are high alpha, but are definitely best utilized late in the boil or in the dryhop.

 

[wowbeeryum]

and continuing down that path, does this harshness matter in bigger/more flavorful beers? i'm guessing no since it seems like columbus is a pretty common bittering hop in IPAs. otherwise it would be standard practice to only bitter with something like magnum.

 

[inturnldemize]

+1 for this question and +1 for the answers. I always had this question in my mind as well!

 

[wowbeeryum]

I just think Columbus is much more versatile than hops like Magnum or Warrior. You can use it at any stage and it's gonna be awesome. You can control any possible harshness by employing a FWH or simply by using less bittering hops and more late additions.

I can't say the same for hops like Nelson or Citra, which are high alpha, but are definitely best utilized late in the boil or in the dryhop.

i guess this is what i'm getting at. if you really can't tell the difference between bittering hops for something like an APA/IPA/etc then why are certain hops more popular (on here) for bittering (like warrior, magnum, columbus) and certain hops are thought be better as late additions (citra, etc)? really, aren't all hops better utilized as late additions?

 

[bobbrews]

really, aren't all hops better utilized as late additions?

And some very good brewers would agree with you... I believe Heady Topper only uses late additions with no traditional bittering addition.

I like Columbus over the other two bittering hops I previously mentioned. But I use CTZ all over so I can't comment on whether or not complete character is lost with one 60 minute addition. If anything remained, I would imagine it could only be perceived in a very clean, pale SMaSH of American 2-row.

 

[wailingguitar]

Hop varieties high in cohumulone have a bit of a harshness behind the bitterness, so they wouldn't be used in some beers (like a pilsner) where it would be noticed and out of place. When considering a bittering hop variety, it's important to look at the cohumulone levels and the beta/alpha acid ratio. I think the beta/alpha acid ratio is probably a good indicator of the "smoothness" of the bitterness of the variety...

The article I posted earlier from Brauwelt International is pretty clear on the fact that research has shown the cohumulone issue to be pretty much, well, a non-issue and based on a misunderstanding of earlier research.

I'm not saying that it is impossible to tell one bittering hop from another, etc., just that it isn't, ultimately, the cohumulone that is the issue.

 

[Clifton]

NB's HeadScratcher IPA calls for 4 ounces of Spalt. I have some Spalt but it is 1.5%AA. Would subbing an ounce of Magnum make the same beer as the massive amount of Spalt I would have to use to get the same IBU's? I'm having doubts.

 

[JLem]

NB's HeadScratcher IPA calls for 4 ounces of Spalt. I have some Spalt but it is 1.5%AA. Would subbing an ounce of Magnum make the same beer as the massive amount of Spalt I would have to use to get the same IBU's? I'm having doubts.

You may get the same bitterness levels, but certainly not the same beer in this case (though you'd have to use more than 4 oz of 1.5% hops to equal 1 ounce of Magnum - closer to 8 oz I would imagine). If you need to use a lot of hops for bittering, you will definitely get a flavor/aroma impact from them. Using 4 oz of Spalt at 60 minutes will impart a distinct flavor to your beer - I know, I've done it. It's a matter of taste, but personally I prefer to bitter with a small amount of a high alpha hop like Magnum and then keep the flavor/aroma hops for late additions. The more vegetal matter that goes into the boil, the more vegetal flavors you'll get in the end - especially if you boil all that vegetal matter for 60+ minutes.

i guess this is what i'm getting at. if you really can't tell the difference between bittering hops for something like an APA/IPA/etc then why are certain hops more popular (on here) for bittering (like warrior, magnum, columbus) and certain hops are thought be better as late additions (citra, etc)? really, aren't all hops better utilized as late additions?

No, not all hops are better as late additions. Some, like Magnum for example, do not provide nearly the same flavor/aroma punch as others, like Citra (or Cascade or Amarillo or...). There is some experimentation being done using traditional bittering hops in late additions, including dry hops, but most hops designated as "bittering" are probably not the best for in terms of flavor and aroma.

 

[tgmartin000]

Sometimes!

As an example, magnum is pretty neutral and I couldn't pick it out as a bittering hop in a German, English, or American beer as the variety used. But if you used chinook in a German beer as the bittering hop, I certainly could. There are some "harshness" characteristic with US hops like chinook and cluster.

The key is the levels of cohumulone. That gives the perception of "harshness" to a hop flavor, especially in bitterness.

Noble hops (hallertauer, tettnanger, etc) are well known for their smoothness, and in a German lager I could easily guess if a non-noble hop variety was used for bittering (unless it was a "clean" neutral hop like magnum). That's because they are low in cohumulone, and harsh tasting beta acids as well.

Here's a cool reference on all the commonly varieties of hops and the beta/alpha acids and cohumulone (and other oils) contents: http://www.usahops.org/userfiles/fi...ety Manual - English (updated March 2011).pdf

Hop varieties high in cohumulone have a bit of a harshness behind the bitterness, so they wouldn't be used in some beers (like a pilsner) where it would be noticed and out of place. When considering a bittering hop variety, it's important to look at the cohumulone levels and the beta/alpha acid ratio. I think the beta/alpha acid ratio is probably a good indicator of the "smoothness" of the bitterness of the variety.

The reason I said "sometimes", though, is that for most beers you will find it really doesn't matter. It's more the delicate lagers where you want a smooth but firm bitterness that you'd be able to find "something" amiss. You won't be able to say, "Oh, they bittered with summit- yuck!" but instead there will be a perceptible harshness or a bit of something not quite as smooth as bittering with a noble hop variety, or at least one clean like a noble hop variety, if that makes sense.

So what beta / alpha acid ratio indicates a smoother bitterness? For instance, below 0.5?

 

[eastoak]

The article I posted earlier from Brauwelt International is pretty clear on the fact that research has shown the cohumulone issue to be pretty much, well, a non-issue and based on a misunderstanding of earlier research.

I'm not saying that it is impossible to tell one bittering hop from another, etc., just that it isn't, ultimately, the cohumulone that is the issue.

the research i've done indicates that this is true, there was one study done on this and it has been used over and over to show that cohumulone make for a harsh bitterness. i just ordered a pound of a hop called Caliente that has a cohumulone content of 35% which i will use to test the idea that high cohumulone levels are somehow bad when used for bittering.

 

[helibrewer]

So what beta / alpha acid ratio indicates a smoother bitterness? For instance, below 0.5?

I am not sure but a consideration is that beta acids oxidize to alpha acids so that ratio is going to change with hop age/handling/O2 exposure.

 

[Silentnoiz]

I just think Columbus is much more versatile than hops like Magnum or Warrior. You can use it at any stage and it's gonna be awesome. You can control any possible harshness by employing a FWH or simply by using less bittering hops and more late additions.

I can't say the same for hops like Nelson or Citra, which are high alpha, but are definitely best utilized late in the boil or in the dryhop.

Citra is one of my favorite hops. I have a IIPA that I use it in as an addition every 10 minutes throughout a 90 minute boil, AND dry hop with as well (there are other hops also, but not to that schedule). The nose is amazing, as is the flavor.

Mikkeller did a base ale that they single-hopped with 19 different hops. Me and some buddies went through all 19-12oz bottles in 2 sittings and took good notes. A very educational experience. I used those notes to construct that IIPA recipe. :rockin:

 

[wowbeeryum]

No, not all hops are better as late additions. Some, like Magnum for example, do not provide nearly the same flavor/aroma punch as others, like Citra (or Cascade or Amarillo or...). There is some experimentation being done using traditional bittering hops in late additions, including dry hops, but most hops designated as "bittering" are probably not the best for in terms of flavor and aroma.

what i meant by that was the fact that all hops, from my understanding, impart more flavor and/or aroma as a late addition (as opposed to an early bittering addition). i understand some are more powerful in that department. but some people recommend not using certain hops for bittering (like citra, i continuously read "it's better as a late addition"), or strongly recommending other hops for bittering, when it doesn't seem to matter much.

 

[Steelers77]

what i meant by that was the fact that all hops, from my understanding, impart more flavor and/or aroma as a late addition (as opposed to an early bittering addition). i understand some are more powerful in that department. but some people recommend not using certain hops for bittering (like citra, i continuously read "it's better as a late addition"), or strongly recommending other hops for bittering, when it doesn't seem to matter much.

You right, all hops will provide more flavor and aroma when added late in the boil, but this is because the aromatics/flavors are not driven off by the boiling action. When people suggest using certain hops later in the boil it is because they add a very distinct/unique flavor or aroma profile. (I.E. Simcoe, Citra, Amarillo, Centennial, Sorachi Ace). Yes they could be used to bitter but their flavor and aroma is what people are really after so there is no reason to "waste" them on a bittering addition when you can find a high alpha hop that will do the trick.

 

[JLem]

You right, all hops will provide more flavor and aroma when added late in the boil, but this is because the aromatics/flavors are not driven off by the boiling action. When people suggest using certain hops later in the boil it is because they add a very distinct/unique flavor or aroma profile. (I.E. Simcoe, Citra, Amarillo, Centennial, Sorachi Ace). Yes they could be used to bitter but their flavor and aroma is what people are really after so there is no reason to "waste" them on a bittering addition when you can find a high alpha hop that will do the trick.

Exactly. I'm not going to bitter with Amarillo since what is great about Amarillo is it's flavor and aroma. Will it work as a bittering addition? Sure thing, and if it's all I have on hand I probably wouldn't think twice about using it (unless i needed to use a ton of it to hit my target IBU level).

I'm also not going to use Magnum as a late/dry hop since, as far as I can tell, it doesn't have the flavor or aroma characteristics that I want out of my late/dry hops. But it does a great job of bittering, so that's where I'll use it.

 

[rrayriver]

If you want to understand the impact of cohumulone, do what I did. Take an IPA recipe where you have used Columbus for bittering (as many do) and substitute Horizon or Simcoe for your bittering hop (both very low in cohumulone but high alpha) for the same IBUS. Do nothing to the rest of your hop additions. You will defintely see the difference. With the same IBUS the test batch will be considerable smoother. I convert non IPA drinkers all the time by doing this.

 

[Puddlethumper]

If you want to understand the impact of cohumulone, do what I did. Take an IPA recipe where you have used Columbus for bittering (as many do) and substitute Horizon or Simcoe for your bittering hop (both very low in cohumulone but high alpha) for the same IBUS. Do nothing to the rest of your hop additions. You will defintely see the difference. With the same IBUS the test batch will be considerable smoother. I convert non IPA drinkers all the time by doing this.

+1 ^^^

From my own experience (admittedly anecdotal) there can be a significant difference in the final beer depending on the bittering hop chosen. Why? I don't know. I'll continue to follow this discussion in that regard.

An easy example of this was an oatmeal stout recipe that turned out harsh tasting with Chinook turned out wonderful the next time when I chose to use Warrior instead. Horizon and Nugget have become "go-to" hops for most of my American style beers for this very reason.

 

[bbrim]

I have a stout recipe that I really enjoy. I have always used Magnum as the buttering hops. The last time I brewed it I used Columbus, thinking the buttering addition shouldn't make a difference. The beer was totally different. The Columbus was not neutral, there was some dankness still coming through that was totally out of place for that beer. It was hard for me to drink and its one of my favorite recipes. If a recipe calls for a neutral bittering hop I would probably stick to the protocal.