"Do not transfer to secondary until final gravity is reached" .. ??HUH???

[woozy]

Lines 12 and 13 of the instructions that came with the ingredient kits of my first two batches:

12. Once activity begins, the temperature should be held at around 65° F. Primary fermentation can last 2-3 weeks or longer. Do not bottle or transfer to secondary (optional) until final gravity is reached.

13. After you have reached your target final gravity, begin bottling: (and nothing about secondary is ever mentioned again.)​

My interpretation:
"Look, just don't do a secondary. You're a beginner, you'll just screw it up and it's not necessary and we just know that if you try, you're just going to rush everything. So we'll tell you to leave it in the primary until it's entirely done and then if you're pig-headed and do a secondary anyway, you won't screw it up because the beer's actually completely done before you even start."

....

Okay... so my first two batches I didn't do a secondary but I think I want to try to do one now. I want to see what it's like, to see what it does, and to see if which camp I'm in. But ... I actually don't think I completely understand the concept.

In short, my question is "What am I looking for when I decide to transfer from primary to secondary?" Now I know the rule of thumb about 1 week in primary; 2 in secondary but as someone else has said, yeasts don't read calendars. So whats the actual event that I'm waiting for before I transfer.

Actually let me put it this way: If I divide the fermentation process into distinct stages (you pitch the yeast, they yeast munches away, the yeast stops munching away and ... well, my concepts and knowledge gets hazy here ... eventually final gravity is reached) and you decide that the first n stages will be done in the primary and the second m stages will be done in the secondary, then which exactly are the n stages done in the primary and which are the m stages done in the secondary and ... how do I know when to transfer?

I'm sorry that this has been discussed so many times before but could we discuss it once more for this late-comer?

 

[grem135]

If you really want to secondary then wait till you hit your final gravity then rack it. I would just leave an average gravity beer in primary for 3-4 weeks to clear and then bottle. Secondary is not necessary for most beers.

 

[tphjr]

Lines 12 and 13 of the instructions that came with the ingredient kits of my first two batches:

12. Once activity begins, the temperature should be held at around 65° F. Primary fermentation can last 2-3 weeks or longer. Do not bottle or transfer to secondary (optional) until final gravity is reached.

13. After you have reached your target final gravity, begin bottling: (and nothing about secondary is ever mentioned again.)​

My interpretation:
"Look, just don't do a secondary. You're a beginner, you'll just screw it up and it's not necessary and we just know that if you try, you're just going to rush everything. So we'll tell you to leave it in the primary until it's entirely done and then if you're pig-headed and do a secondary anyway, you won't screw it up because the beer's actually completely done before you even start."

....

Okay... so my first two batches I didn't do a secondary but I think I want to try to do one now. I want to see what it's like, to see what it does, and to see if which camp I'm in. But ... I actually don't think I completely understand the concept.

In short, my question is "What am I looking for when I decide to transfer from primary to secondary?" Now I know the rule of thumb about 1 week in primary; 2 in secondary but as someone else has said, yeasts don't read calendars. So whats the actual event that I'm waiting for before I transfer.

Actually let me put it this way: If I divide the fermentation process into distinct stages (you pitch the yeast, they yeast munches away, the yeast stops munching away and ... well, my concepts and knowledge gets hazy here ... eventually final gravity is reached) and you decide that the first n stages will be done in the primary and the second m stages will be done in the secondary, then which exactly are the n stages done in the primary and which are the m stages done in the secondary and ... how do I know when to transfer?

I'm sorry that this has been discussed so many times before but could we discuss it once more for this late-comer?

The real reason for a secondary is not for a secondary fermentation at all. Transferring your beer off the initial trube & into a clean container and letting it sit there for a couple of weeks helps the beer settle out and you get a much clearer, and in some cases a better tasting beer.

I've done it both ways and beer bottled after secondary has about half the sediment in the bottom of the bottle.

 

[woozy]

If you really want to secondary then wait till you hit your final gravity then tack it. I would just leave an average gravity beer in primary for 3-4 weeks to clear and then bottle. Secondary is not necessary for most beers.

Tack it? Newbie here. What does "tack it" mean?

So you are saying, let the primary do *everything* and then if I really want to try to do a secondary, do it as an additional step? You are saying *not* to break the "whole enchilada" of the fermenting process in half with the first (turbulent-- first week) part of the fermentation in the primary and the second (mellow-- last two weeks) part in the secondary? You are saying to do the "whole enchilada" (full three weeks) in the primary and only do an extra "let's *really* get mellow" (weeks 4-6) session but only if I really want to?

Fair enough.

But aren't there some advocates who say you break "the whole enchilada" up? How's that supposed to work?

So you're in the "don't secondary" camp. I have a feeling I probably will be too in the end. But right now I want to have the experience of both so I will have something to compare them to.

 

[doby]

Plus it frees up your primary

 

[BansheeRider]

Just let the beer sit in primary for three weeks and you'll have clear beer. The poster above meant "rack" not tack, it was a simple typo. Most people only use secondary when adding dry hops, fruit, oak chips, etc etc...or when extended aging is needed.

 

[woozy]

The real reason for a secondary is not for a secondary fermentation at all. Transferring your beer off the initial trube & into a clean container and letting it sit there for a couple of weeks helps the beer settle out and you get a much clearer, and in some cases a better tasting beer.

I've done it both ways and beer bottled after secondary has about half the sediment in the bottom of the bottle.

Okay... so I'm misinformed about the "whole enchilada" concept? You *do* complete the beer? Then clear it out?

But I'm confused. Those who use the 1-2-3 rule of thumb and who transfer after 1 week in the primary... Surely if they are transferring after only one week the beer surely is not done fermenting. What's the theory behind that?

I'm not saying you have to *agree* with the theory, but I'd like to understand what it is.
======

... OR .....

are you saying that whereever the beer is, it finishes the primary and reaches final gravity in about a week. Then it spends about two weeks unclouding. Finicky people think it should uncloud in a clean new place (hence a secondary) but in actuality letting it stay in the same old place is fine (hence an "extended primary")

But that can't be right. Final gravity takes weeks to stabalize doesn't it? Or does final gravity not mean the end of fermentation but the end of "clouding out"? No, that can't be right either.

I really sorry for my obtuseness. I get the feeling that there is some fundamental concept I'm just not recognizing that you all find obvious.

Seriously? What's this 1 week in primary business I keep hearing about?

 

[woozy]

Plus it frees up your primary

Not if I keep the beer in my primary for three weeks either way.

 

[doby]

Most of the time especially with dry yeast primary fermination is done in 5 to 7 days, I typically tranfer after 7

 

[aiptasia]

Just let the beer sit in primary for three weeks and you'll have clear beer. The poster above meant "rack" not tack, it was a simple typo. Most people only use secondary when adding dry hops, fruit, oak chips, etc etc...or when extended aging is needed.

This.

IMHO, there's no reason to secondary at all except for this.

 

[tphjr]

Okay... so I'm misinformed about the "whole enchilada" concept? You *do* complete the beer? Then clear it out?

But I'm confused. Those who use the 1-2-3 rule of thumb and who transfer after 1 week in the primary... Surely if they are transferring after only one week the beer surely is not done fermenting. What's the theory behind that?

I'm not saying you have to *agree* with the theory, but I'd like to understand what it is.

I brew with and without a secondary.

When I ferment in a primmary only I keep the beer in the fermenter for 2 weeks then I keg. When I used to bottle I would keep the beer in the primary for an extra week to make sure it was finished. I learned the hard way that bottling too soon = exploding bottles.

When I want super clean beer I ferment in a primary for 2 weeks then I transfer to a secondary for another 2 weeks before I keg. I used to use the same routine when I bottled and it worked very well.

The bottom line is - do what works for you.

 

[dirtybasementbrew]

Tack it? Newbie here. What does "tack it" mean?

So you are saying, let the primary do *everything* and then if I really want to try to do a secondary, do it as an additional step? You are saying *not* to break the "whole enchilada" of the fermenting process in half with the first (turbulent-- first week) part of the fermentation in the primary and the second (mellow-- last two weeks) part in the secondary? You are saying to do the "whole enchilada" (full three weeks) in the primary and only do an extra "let's *really* get mellow" (weeks 4-6) session but only if I really want to?

Fair enough.

But aren't there some advocates who say you break "the whole enchilada" up? How's that supposed to work?

So you're in the "don't secondary" camp. I have a feeling I probably will be too in the end. But right now I want to have the experience of both so I will have something to compare them to.

I think he meant "rack it" which means to transfer. If I were you I would let it sit on the yeast cake for about a month and let it clean itself up. If you are careful racking to your bottling bucket you'll have fairly clear beer. Most secondary use IMO is for enhancements, fruit additions etc. No need to risk infection over clarity your HB will do that itself, just don't pour vigorously or hammer the last couple sips of the bottle. There are lots of good threads and really use full info from accomplished brewers on HBT. Do some research and find other opinions but again if your not adding fruit let it in primary. Happy home brewing and good luck

 

[GrogNerd]

"tack it" i think is supposed to be "rack it" - means transfer

The Event that tells you when to bottle or transfer to secondary is Final Gravity. you can do either any time after FG has been reached. when you get the same gravity two readings in a row a day or 2 apart, you have reached FG. that tells you fermentation is done. but there are other things the yeast need to do once fermentation is done, clean up after themselves and other stuff, so you make better beer when you wait for the yeast to do that. couple days.

again, secondary is not really necessary unless you're adding more fermentables like fruit (this would make it an actual secondary fermentation) or dry hopping, adding oak or extended aging.

but go ahead, do it for the experience and comparison. there is risk of contamination, so keep it sanitary and you should be OK.

 

[freisste]

First of all, everybody stop telling OP not to secondary. He clearly explained what he was trying to do and wants to experiment with his brew to see if he likes it. Necessary? Not always. Optional? Definitely. Just because you don't do it, doesn't make it wrong.

Okay... so I'm misinformed about the "whole enchilada" concept? You *do* complete the beer? Then clear it out?

But I'm confused. Those who use the 1-2-3 rule of thumb and who transfer after 1 week in the primary... Surely if they are transferring after only one week the beer surely is not done fermenting. What's the theory behind that?

I'm not saying you have to *agree* with the theory, but I'd like to understand what it is.
======

... OR .....

are you saying that whereever the beer is, it finishes the primary and reaches final gravity in about a week. Then it spends about two weeks unclouding. Finicky people think it should uncloud in a clean new place (hence a secondary) but in actuality letting it stay in the same old place is fine (hence an "extended primary")

But that can't be right. Final gravity takes weeks to stabalize doesn't it? Or does final gravity not mean the end of fermentation but the end of "clouding out"? No, that can't be right either.

I really sorry for my obtuseness. I get the feeling that there is some fundamental concept I'm just not recognizing that you all find obvious.

Seriously? What's this 1 week in primary business I keep hearing about?

First of all, an FYI: while it is referred to as secondary, it is a bit of a misnomer because there is generally no fermentation taking place.

Two schools of thought on when to rack. First is much more common. After fermentation is complete, rack off of the yeast. Benefits include cleaning out your primary to use for another beer, getting the beer off the yeast to avoid autolysis (antiquated reason, but it proliferates somehow - ignore it), and helping to leave more trub in the bucket (and thus, not in your bottles). Cons include that it takes the beer off the yeast (leaving a beer on the yeast helps to clean up off flavors in some cases), but keep in mind you an leave it on the yeast several weeks to several months before transferring.

Second school of though (much less common than the first) is that you rack to secondary before fermentation is complete. The idea is that you leave a little fermentation to occur, which produces CO2 which protects your beer from oxidation. The risk with the second school of thought is a stuck fermentation. In my opinion, you are better off finishing fermentation in primary and racking carefully to avoid oxidation, this reducing the need to recreate a protective CO2 layer.

"are you saying that whereever the beer is, it finishes the primary and reaches final gravity in about a week. Then it spends about two weeks unclouding. Finicky people think it should uncloud in a clean new place (hence a secondary) but in actuality letting it stay in the same old place is fine (hence an "extended primary")" THIS IS CORRECT. ALL OF IT. IT WILL CLEAR IN PRIMARY OR SECONDARY. sorry about the caps, just wanted to stand out.


In conclusion, secondary is fine if you want to do it, but it isn't necessary. Choose for yourself. Likely you will find that it doesn't have a discernible effect, but if it does it may become something you do to every batch.

 

[freisste]

First of all, everybody stop telling OP not to secondary. He clearly explained what he was trying to do and wants to experiment with his brew to see if he likes it. Necessary? Not always. Optional? Definitely. Just because you don't do it, doesn't make it wrong.

Okay... so I'm misinformed about the "whole enchilada" concept? You *do* complete the beer? Then clear it out?

But I'm confused. Those who use the 1-2-3 rule of thumb and who transfer after 1 week in the primary... Surely if they are transferring after only one week the beer surely is not done fermenting. What's the theory behind that?

I'm not saying you have to *agree* with the theory, but I'd like to understand what it is.
======

... OR .....

are you saying that whereever the beer is, it finishes the primary and reaches final gravity in about a week. Then it spends about two weeks unclouding. Finicky people think it should uncloud in a clean new place (hence a secondary) but in actuality letting it stay in the same old place is fine (hence an "extended primary")

But that can't be right. Final gravity takes weeks to stabalize doesn't it? Or does final gravity not mean the end of fermentation but the end of "clouding out"? No, that can't be right either.

I really sorry for my obtuseness. I get the feeling that there is some fundamental concept I'm just not recognizing that you all find obvious.

Seriously? What's this 1 week in primary business I keep hearing about?

First of all, an FYI: while it is referred to as secondary, it is a bit of a misnomer because there is generally no fermentation taking place.

Two schools of thought on when to rack. First is much more common. After fermentation is complete, rack off of the yeast. Benefits include cleaning out your primary to use for another beer, getting the be

 

[amandabab]

they get 9 cents everytime they parrot the don't secondary line.

 

[freisste]

Apparently half my post didn't post. It was a bit of a rant anyway...

First school of thought. Finish fermentation, rack to secondary. Benefits include getting it off the yeast (probably not a benefit, but it is a lingering believe from days of old - ignore it), opening your primary for your next brew, and leaving a lot of trub behind (less eventually makes it into your bottles, although the common argument is that careful racking could avoid this anyway).

Second (and much less common) school of thought is to rack when there is still some fermentation to go. The reasoning is that the fermentation will kick off some CO2 which will protect the beer from oxidation. While true, it is probably just as easy to rack carefully after fermentation is complete. If you are concerned, purge the headspace in your secondary with CO2 enforce racking. The issue with this method is that it is possible to cause a stuck fermentation. In my opinion, it is not worth the risk.

At the end of the day, it is totally you call whether or not to secondary. There is a very strong argument that it isn't necessary, but it is not wrong either. Hope this post gives you a little of the info you were looking for.

 

[Tupperwolf]

OP, do you use a hydrometer to measure the gravity of your wort/beer before/during/after fermentation?

 

[stevedasleeve]

I've done it both ways but no noticeable difference except a few less or more minutes in my day!

I'll do secondary now only to make room for more beers to ferment. Generally 1 week primary and 2 secondary with dry hops.

Try it out and see if you like your beer better.

 

[woozy]

Okay, My question was *NOT* should I secondary. It was *HOW* do I secondary and how do I know I am doing it right (and what is it I'm supposed to be doing in the first place any way).

I want to try secondary **even if it's turns out that I'm not in the secondary camp** because I want the first hand experience and I want to be able to compare results.

But do I even know what the heck I am talking about? Probably not.

Just because you don't do it, doesn't make it wrong.

Well, even if it *is* wrong, I want to do it anyway so I can then know first hand that it is wrong. And why

First of all, an FYI: while it is referred to as secondary, it is a bit of a misnomer because there is generally no fermentation taking place.

Okay, got it. Time out. Dumb Question. So if I have a hypothetical batch and this hypothetical batch takes three weeks to "get done" (whatever that is; I now feel I know less than ever) how much of the "getting done" time is actual fermentation and how much is "clearing up"?

Two schools of thought on when to rack. First is much more common. After fermentation is complete, rack off of the yeast.

How do I know when fermentation is done? Becomes inactive? Becomes clear? Reaches final gravity?

In my hypothetical batch that is fully ready to bottle in exactly three weeks (lucky hypothetical me) aproximately when does this typically occur? 2 weeks? One week? 2 weeks and 6 days?

Or is this the "don't secondary" camp and the fermentation *is* the full three weeks?

Second school of though (much less common than the first) is that you rack to secondary before fermentation is complete.

Same questions of time with my hypothetical perfect three week batch. (This would be racking after 5-7 days?)

Is this the "primary fermentation" (*not* to be confused with "primary fermentor") that dooby is talking about? And this takes about 7 days? And how do I know when its time.? Activity drops off? It just doesn't really matter that much?

Hmmm. I guess your "two schools of thought" *were* the schools of primary only vs. secondary (and not two schools of secondary as I assumed on first reading.)

THIS IS CORRECT. ALL OF IT. IT WILL CLEAR IN PRIMARY OR SECONDARY.

Okay, I get that. But if I decide I'm going to do the "break it up" school when do I "break it up" and how do I know when? (Okay, that's actually me asking the same question four times...)

In conclusion, secondary is fine if you want to do it,

I want to *try* it. I don't know that I want to do it...

I like the idea of clearing up the primary.... But then again primary only clears up the secondary...

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

Primary fermentation is done when you reach final gravity( check by getting the same hydrometer reading a few days apart). To secondary you simply move your beer from the fermenter to another vessel to allow it to clear, or add fruit, or dry hop, or long term aging.

You will know secondary is complete when you can see through your beer I.E. it will be "clear" enough to see through to the other side of the fermenter(if not using solid color plastic).

Primary fermentation usually take 3-7 days. Then the other two weeks most are letting it sit in there primary is to clear the beer without transferring to a secondary container.

I hope this clears some of your confusion.

 

[woozy]

OP, do you use a hydrometer to measure the gravity of your wort/beer before/during/after fermentation?

I'm very new to everything including using a hydrometer. My first batch was done without it.

My second batch (which is not going to have a secondary) is two weeks in the fermentor. I used it on brewing day (two weeks ago exactly) for O.G. and I read it last night because I thought final gravity was reached. I'll check again Weds. to see if it's stable (which I think it will be but I could be wishful thinking). However I'm not 100% confident in my reading skills.

I don't know how or why I'd use it during fermentation.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

I'm very new to everything including using a hydrometer. My first batch was done without it.

My second batch (which is not going to have a secondary) is two weeks in the fermentor. I used it on brewing day (two weeks ago exactly) for O.G. and I read it last night because I thought final gravity was reached. I'll check again Weds. to see if it's stable (which I think it will be but I could be wishful thinking). However I'm not 100% confident in my reading skills.

I don't know how or why I'd use it during fermentation.

You generally only need to use the hydrometer before fermenting for an OG reading and once you think fermentation is done to check for a stable FG (same reading a few days apart will confirm FG). I usually wait till all the foamy krausen falls from the surface to the bottom of the fermenter( pretty good indicator that primary fermentation is done, also when you would want to rack(transfer beer) to secondary if you're going to use one.

 

[lowtones84]

A hydrometer is the only way to know for sure that you've reached FG, that is very true. However I don't like opening up my beer and taking samples constantly. If I'm going to secondary for some reason (I usually don't, but do occasionally for different reasons) a lot of times I just wait 10-14 days before I rack to secondary, which is probably more than necessary in many cases. I feel more confident with this if it's yeast strain and/or recipe that I've done before and all of the conditions are "normal" and predictable.

It might be a good idea to just take gravity readings a few times around the 5-7 day (after fermentation has started) mark this time to get into the practice and see how it goes.

 

[ScottG58]

I have three beers in secondary. A Russian Imperial Stout that started 1.110 is bulk aging. A Belgian Golden Strong an Schwartzbier are lagering. Next beer, a Shakespeare Stout clone will not secondary. It's a tool. I use it if I have a good reason to use it. The possible downsides besides possible loss of attenuation are risk of contamination or oxidation.

 

[woozy]

Primary fermentation is done when you reach final gravity( check by getting the same hydrometer reading a few days apart). ....

Primary fermentation usually take 3-7 days. ....

I hope this clears some of your confusion.

Well, that would mean that everything I read about it taking 2-3 weeks to reach final gravity is *wrong*, wouldn't it?

Which I can accept.

But wouldn't that mean that if I *don't* secondary than I don't ever have to check final gravity for timing purposes? Because after three weeks when I'm beginning to think about bottling final gravity would have been reached two weeks ago so I *know* its been reached so I don't have to check *if* it's been reached (because it *has*).

....

All right! New question: The instructions, line 12, says "Primary fermentation can last 2-3 weeks or longer". Does this mean "time in the primary fermentator during which it ferments for a a few days and then clarifies for a much longer period of time can take 2-3 weeks or longer" or does it mean "It will take 2-3 weeks or longer for fermentation alone to take place"?

And then it says .... Oh S***! I get it!

A) "Primary fermentation can last 2-3 weeks or longer" means total in primary *or* total time in primary and secondary.

B) ***MISLEADING!!!!***** "Do not bottle or transfer to secondary until final gravity is reached" which is *utterly* independent and unrelated to A). Final gravity reached in only 7 days and you can transfer to secondary (optional) *then* *OR* you can wait the full 2-3 weeks or longer before bottling at which time final gravity would be reached (and would have been holding steady for at least a week!)

But wait... Are you saying final gravity doesn't have anything to do with when do with when to bottle the beer? If final gravity tells me when to secondary (if I chose to do so), than what tells me when to bottle (whether I secondary or not)????

Now, I'm more confused than ever!!!

 

[woozy]

You generally only need to use the hydrometer before fermenting for an OG reading and once you think fermentation is done to check for a stable FG (same reading a few days apart will confirm FG). I usually wait till all the foamy krausen falls from the surface to the bottom of the fermenter( pretty good indicator that primary fermentation is done, also when you would want to rack(transfer beer) to secondary if you're going to use one.

Okay, I've been operating under the impression that the wort takes a certain amount of time to "get done" with pitching yeast and the very beginning, and being ready to bottle at the very end. Let's call that "the whole enchilada".

I've been assuming, utterly wrongly apparently, that final gravity isn't reached until the very end of "the whole enchilada" and that when F.G is reach that that is how I know it is time to bottle. Therefore I have been waiting two weeks when I think "the whole enchilada" might be over before I first measure my final gravity.

So this is completely wrong???

So *instead* I can use final gravity readings to decide when to rack to a secondary fermentor (if I so choose). Thus if I chose *not* to secondary I don't need to measure for final gravity at all except to take notes and records on the batch.

But then how do I know when to bottle??? Just when it looks good?

 

[lowtones84]

Haha it's cool, don't get too flustered! FG tells you that you can bottle as well. It is generally accepted that letting the beer stay on the yeast for a few days after FG is reached can help clean up some fermentation byproducts. If it's at FG and you rack to secondary, then it's ready to bottle whenever you decide it's ready to bottle. This can be because of its flavor, reaching the clarity you want, desired time of dry hopping reached. or even just experience after you've been brewing for a while.

Don't let it stress you out. I would just give everything a couple more days than you think is probably necessary. Think of the yeast as your friends and let them do what they want to do, and they will probably reward you with good beer.

 

[BansheeRider]

It's not complicated. Initial fermentation lasts maybe a week, sometimes shorter depending on temps. The rest of the fermentation is the yeast "cleaning up". Which means the yeast is eating byproducts and off flavors. The gravity readings should be consistent by the time you reach 2 weeks.

Secondary fermenation is not really fermenting because final gravity should have been reached before racking. If you add more sugar to secondary fermenation will start again.

If this is still confusing I suggest reading a couple homebrew books. Not trying to be rude but the books help.

 

[BansheeRider]

It's not complicated. Initial fermentation lasts maybe a week, sometimes shorter depending on temps. The rest of the fermentation is the yeast "cleaning up". Which means the yeast is eating byproducts and off flavors. The gravity readings should be consistent by the time you reach 2 weeks.

Secondary fermenation is not really fermenting because final gravity should have been reached before racking. If you add more sugar to secondary fermenation will start again.

If this is still confusing I suggest reading a couple homebrew books. Not trying to be rude but the books help.