Do I REALLY need to pay attention to pitch rates???

[amandabab]

if its starting fast and not throwing off flavors you ARE at a proper pitching rate.

Even if all the caculators are in competition to see who can say you need the most yeast, and in doing so, getting the most hits and fans.

 

[weirdboy]

That isn't always the case either though. Pick up Palmers How To Brew (Print copy, not the online edition), theres a chart there that shows how many packets and how many liters of starter u should use. Granted its not set in stone but is a guide to point u in the correction direction.

There are also a few threads on here about why u should use multiple vials/smack packs instead of just one with a huge amount of DME starter.

You can always step up a starter instead of pitching multiple packs.

 

[GRBC]

No. You don't REALLY have to pay attention to pitching rates. It's your beer and you can make it however you like. I have found that I like my beer better now that I do really pay attention to pitching rates, O2, and fermentation temperature control, but that's me and my beer. It cant hurt to try it and then decide if you think it is worth it for your beer.

 

[cluckk]

What about dry yeast? If BeerSmith/MrMalty/etc. recommend more than one packet, do you buy multiple packets or make a starter? For some reason I remember reading that starters are only for liquid yeast, but I've never heard why.

If Brewsmith recommends multiple packets of dry yeast, then I pitch multiple packets of dry yeast--they cheap in comparison to liquid. As for the recommended starter sizes for liquid yeast, notice that Brewsmith gives you the size starter you need to build, or the number of multiple packets you will need if you don't build a starter. Also, notice there is a setting for whether you use a stir plate or not because this greatly effects the amount of yeast. Finally, as was posted before, make sure and change the package date for your yeast in the Brewsmith calculator--it does, irritatingly, default to 2011.

 

[Pratzie]

You can always step up a starter instead of pitching multiple packs.

Yes but stepping it up in parts is different then dumping one pack into a 4L starter. Which will take more time and more DME.

take not of this thread...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/stepping-up-yeast-starter-326077/

and more particularly, this link in that thread...
http://billybrew.com/stepping-up-a-yeast-starter

In that thread, read the third post by diS and in the second thread take notice to the chart. One pack pitched into a 1L starter will give u roughly 150 billion cells, but pitching one pack into a 7L starter will give you roughly 350 billion. Thats roughly 2.33 X's increase in the amount of cells, not 7X's like one would expect.

 

[weirdboy]

Yes but stepping it up in parts is different then dumping one pack into a 4L starter. Which will take more time and more DME.

You don't need any DME to make a starter. You just need wort. Stepping up does require more time, but if are in a hurry why bother with a starter at all? Just pitch a whole bunch of packs of yeast.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Yes but stepping it up in parts is different then dumping one pack into a 4L starter. Which will take more time and more DME.

take not of this thread...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/stepping-up-yeast-starter-326077/

and more particularly, this link in that thread...
http://billybrew.com/stepping-up-a-yeast-starter

In that thread, read the third post by diS and in the second thread take notice to the chart. One pack pitched into a 1L starter will give u roughly 150 billion cells, but pitching one pack into a 7L starter will give you roughly 350 billion. Thats roughly 2.33 X's increase in the amount of cells, not 7X's like one would expect.

All that is true, but how does it support your assertion that 2 smack packs with one starter is somehow better than one pack with a two-stage starter? (in order to arrive at the same number of yeast cells.)

 

[Pratzie]

All that is true, but how does it support your assertion that 2 smack packs with one starter is somehow better than one pack with a two-stage starter? (in order to arrive at the same number of yeast cells.)

It doesn't on a smaller scale because u can get to the same point with just adding some more DME and one step (if u have the time). But when you get into RIS or IIPA's with an OG of 1.090, or a lager with a mid sized OG but with a large 10-15+ gallon batch, do u really wanna have to use a monster flask and a 6 step, week and a half long build up process for your starter with just one pack?

 

[SpeedYellow]

It doesn't on a smaller scale because u can get to the same point with just adding some more DME and one step (if u have the time). But when you get into RIS or IIPA's with an OG of 1.090, or a lager with a mid sized OG but with a large 10-15+ gallon batch, do u really wanna have to use a monster flask and a 6 step, week and a half long build up process for your starter with just one pack?

When I said one smack pack suffices (with a 1- or 2-stage starter), I was assuming of course just 5 gallon batches. It goes without saying that such a strategy fails for 10-15+ gal batches of high-grav beer, because like you said logistically it doesn't work well.

 

[Barnesie]

What kind of brewer do you want to be? I don't care about contests and don't care about being better than everyone else. I shoot to be better today than I was yesterday--I compete with myself. I also want to be proud of my beer when presenting some to a friend.

And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that someone should or should not worry about fermentation temperatures and pitching rates, I'm just suggesting that if someone is truly satisfied with the beer that they're making then that might be good be enough for them at a given point in time (in the RDWHAH tradition). I also believe that if a homebrewer is satisfied with what they're doing today, they will likely grow to be unsatisfied with the same in the future and start seeking out possible improvements.

For me personally, I'm interested in the long-term growth of incremental improvements.

 

[Yooper]

You don't need any DME to make a starter. You just need wort. Stepping up does require more time, but if are in a hurry why bother with a starter at all? Just pitch a whole bunch of packs of yeast.

One thing I like to do is save wort after brewing. I'll purposely sparge longer- and once the BK is at the correct volume, I'll draw off another gallon or so. I'll boil that down to 1.030 (usually about 10 minutes) on top of my stove, to sanitize and go from about 1.018 (where my sparges tend to be at that time) to 1.030. Then I fill a tupperware pitcher (2 quarts) and freeze. It's not a huge amount at a time, but I usually have some wort (or DME in the cupboard) around for starters that way.

I make 10 gallon batches most of the time. What I like to do is make a starter for the yeast, and then split my 10 gallons into 2 five gallon fermenters. Then, I save and rinse the yeast cakes and divide that into jars for the fridge. I buy yeast only once or twice a year, because then each yeast packages is good for about 10 batches before I buy fresh.

I just purchased $42 of yeast, so I'll be good now until late fall. Starters are a great way to ensure good quality beer by proper pitching rate, plus a good way to save money on yeast.

 

[forstmeister]

So...what I really need to do is buy a 2L erlenmeyer? I can do that...

It's a good start. I have done starters on my last 2 batches. The first, an IPA, took off the same day and after a week in the keg may be my best beer ever (I have probably brewed about 30-40 batches). The second one, an California Common, I brewed yesterday. I pitched a 2L starter and it was vigorously fermenting after only 4 hours. I cold crashed the second one and decanted most of the beer off the yeast cake. I think this will be even more improved than my IPA.

I like to slowly build up my skill set with brewing. It was just time to get better. I was tired of making good beer. I want to make great beer.

 

[forstmeister]

One thing I like to do is save wort after brewing. I'll purposely sparge longer- and once the BK is at the correct volume, I'll draw off another gallon or so. I'll boil that down to 1.030 (usually about 10 minutes) on top of my stove, to sanitize and go from about 1.018 (where my sparges tend to be at that time) to 1.030. Then I fill a tupperware pitcher (2 quarts) and freeze. It's not a huge amount at a time, but I usually have some wort (or DME in the cupboard) around for starters that way.

I make 10 gallon batches most of the time. What I like to do is make a starter for the yeast, and then split my 10 gallons into 2 five gallon fermenters. Then, I save and rinse the yeast cakes and divide that into jars for the fridge. I buy yeast only once or twice a year, because then each yeast packages is good for about 10 batches before I buy fresh.

I just purchased $42 of yeast, so I'll be good now until late fall. Starters are a great way to ensure good quality beer by proper pitching rate, plus a good way to save money on yeast.

Yooper, I never stop learning tricks from you. I will definitely try the extra sparge and collect wort to save for my next starter. There is always sugar left in the mash tun! Yes, I know not to extract below 2-3 Plato though.

 

[Pratzie]

You don't need any DME to make a starter. You just need wort. Stepping up does require more time, but if are in a hurry why bother with a starter at all? Just pitch a whole bunch of packs of yeast.

Im using DME as an example because its arguably the most commonly used type of sugar used in a starter. Using wort from a previous batch is actually a really good idea but it seems like not alot of people save some wort for that purpose

When I said one smack pack suffices (with a 1- or 2-stage starter), I was assuming of course just 5 gallon batches. It goes without saying that such a strategy fails for 10-15+ gal batches of high-grav beer, because like you said logistically it doesn't work well.

I agree it would go without saying but if your used to brewing mid level OG ale's and then decide to try a batch of lager, there is a very big difference in pitch rates. Lager's themselves require much higher rates then ales to begin with and then to possibly step it up to even just a ten gallon increase in size is a big increase in pitching rates. Im just stating that point for people who are used to brewing alot of ales, that pitching rates will change drastically when/if they decide to go to a lagers.

 

[fosaisu]

So...what I really need to do is buy a 2L erlenmeyer? I can do that...

If you want to save money you can get by with a gallon jar as well. Easier to be. The DME in and still works with the stir plate. Oh and it's bigger so can accommodate a larger starter. Figured this out after I broke my 2L flask!

 

[SpeedYellow]

...
I agree it would go without saying but if your used to brewing mid level OG ale's and then decide to try a batch of lager, there is a very big difference in pitch rates. Lager's themselves require much higher rates then ales to begin with and then to possibly step it up to even just a ten gallon increase in size is a big increase in pitching rates. Im just stating that point for people who are used to brewing alot of ales, that pitching rates will change drastically when/if they decide to go to a lagers.

And again, all that is true, but doesn't change the fact that you can easily get the recommended yeast cell count for a 5-gal high-gravity lager using a single smack pack and a two stage starter. E.g. first a 1.5L starter, followed by 3L starter.

 

[weirdboy]

Im using DME as an example because its arguably the most commonly used type of sugar used in a starter. Using wort from a previous batch is actually a really good idea but it seems like not alot of people save some wort for that purpose

You don't have to save wort for that purpose, either. I only do that occasionally because I already have enough brewing stuff in the freezer that my wife would kill me if I started freezing wort in there too.

However what I make simple mini-mashes in my rice cooker to get starter wort. Doesn't take much effort, and I already have plenty of bulk base malt around.

 

[billl]

Something to keep in mind is that not all yeast are created equal.

When you underpitch, you are creating a certain amount of stress on the yeast to rapidly reproduce. (Which could be considerable amounts of stress if you don't have enough oxygen or nutrients.) Each strain is going to respond to that stress in different ways. For a clean american ale yeast, you might not notice a big difference from underpitching as long as you are aerating well and controlling temps. If you do the same thing to a hefe, you'll get dramatically different results. You might like those difference, or you might not, but there will certainly be differences.

 

[Pratzie]

And again, all that is true, but doesn't change the fact that you can easily get the recommended yeast cell count for a 5-gal high-gravity lager using a single smack pack and a two stage starter. E.g. first a 1.5L starter, followed by 3L starter.

Im not gonna argue that, because all of this is six of one and half a dozen of the other. For me, personally, i'd rather spend another 6 or 7 bucks on another vial and just pitch two into one since my work schedule is in constant flux and I like to plan on making the starter on a Thursday so its ready by Saturday when I brew. Your method isn't wrong and neither is mine, it all comes down to preference, time and the size of the flask ur working with (Dammit, I guess size does matter ).

You don't have to save wort for that purpose, either. I only do that occasionally because I already have enough brewing stuff in the freezer that my wife would kill me if I started freezing wort in there too.

However what I make simple mini-mashes in my rice cooker to get starter wort. Doesn't take much effort, and I already have plenty of bulk base malt around.

Ive never heard of anyone doing that before but it makes sense. What kind of grains do u use and how much? And how far in advance do u usually make them? Ive just recently switched to All-grain and don't keep large amounts of grain around but it wouldn't be a problem to have my LHBS package another lb or two of base malt separately for that purpose.

 

[forstmeister]

One more (pictorial) argument for a starter:





This is 24 hours after pitching. I cleaned it and put another airlock on. One hour later the new airlock was full of krausen. I rigged a blow-off tube at that point. This is a mid-gravity California Common that I pitched a 2L starter into.

 

[RIC0]

Under pitch a big beer and you can end up with a good 6% beer instead of a great 9 or 10% beer.

Been there done that...

 

[homebrewbeliever]

Generally a lower pitch is associated with more ester production and can also attribute more off flavors. A higher pitch will give you a cleaner yeast flavor, and will ferment faster. Trappist breweries actually under pitch on purpose to get those extra esters.
If you are brewing low gravity 5 gallon batches, you are probably doing alright with just one vial, but if you are brewing something like an IIPA, you are severely underpitching and I would recommend a half gallon starter.

So would you recommend that I use a smack pack or WL vial and make a starter from it instead of just using multiple smack packs or vials? I don't mean to sound naive, I've just never really done it.

 

[homebrewbeliever]

Let's put it a different way, "My beer tastes good doing it this way, so why make better beer?" For quite a while everyone told me that proper pitch rate and controlled fermentation temperatures would make better beer, but "Who needs that? My beer tastes great." Then I put in the effort of making starters and controlling temps. I would never go back to drinking what I was making before. Can you insist on using a single smack pack or vial? Sure. It's your beer. But will you make lower quality beer that way? Every time.

Noted. I suppose I have no reference point of it being "better" or "worse" because I haven't done it any other way. At what gravity do I need to start making a starter or using multiple smack packs / vials?

 

[homebrewbeliever]

While I agree to a point, it is true that the master chef will often emulate simpler rustic cooking, but he still masters the more advanced techniques of cooking, so when he doesn't use a technique he has a good reason. A free-form jazz musician does not simply discard music theory, because his music sounds fine without it. He may lay those restrictions aside, but to make the best music he still masters them. A poet who doesn't feel bound to standards of poetic form, still learns and masters those forms so when he deviates from them it is for a purpose. A brewer who masters the techniques of brewing and then chooses to lay some of those techniques aside is an artist who has a specific reason for using the tools at his command. Is this anywhere close to the one who says, "My beer is fine so why try harder?" While I am all for someone saying this of their own beer, the problem is that when you post such things on a place like HBT (which you are free to do) then you actually cause problems for those who are trying to learn good brewing. "This guy doesn't bother with building a starter, but simply pitches low, so why should I?" For that reason, others must step in and point out that while your choice is your choice and the beer may taste good, this is not good practice and not the practice of someone who wants to make the best beer.

What kind of brewer do you want to be? I don't care about contests and don't care about being better than everyone else. I shoot to be better today than I was yesterday--I compete with myself. I also want to be proud of my beer when presenting some to a friend.

Do an experiment. Make two identical 5 gallon batches. In one batch pitch a single vial of yeast. For the other build an appropriate sized starter (take the time to calculate it). Ferment them out the same way and see what happens. Then decide if you need to use starters. Until you do this, you are only guessing. By the way, you may want to check out the book Yeast, by Chris White--of White labs.

Excuse me, but I did NOT intend to start this thread to make people think that I am an awesome brewer and that my choice so far to not use starters is the best idea in the world. I want to be a fantastic brewer, but I have only been brewing for a year. I am at the point at which I feel I can start expanding my technique, which is why I came to HBT and asked the community what they think about pitch rates. I want to know the answers from more experienced brewers so that I can learn to become a phenomenal home brewer.

 

[homebrewbeliever]

No, you never need to use multiple packets of liquid yeast; just make a larger starter. I refuse to buy multiple $6 yeast packs out of principle, so I just make bigger starters. Sometimes two stage starters, like 1.5L then 3L.

People don't usually make starters with dry yeast, so yes, use multiple packs of dry yeast when needed.

How long do you let the yeast propagate in your starter before pitching? How do you know when there are enough yeast cells? Also, do you pour off the liquid and only pitch the slurry, or do you pitch the whole dang thing?

 

[goodgodilovebeer]

18-24 hrs is usually enough time on a stir plate. I usually let the yeast settle and pitch the thick slurry. Fermenter space usually dictates.

 

[homebrewbeliever]

One thing I like to do is save wort after brewing. I'll purposely sparge longer- and once the BK is at the correct volume, I'll draw off another gallon or so. I'll boil that down to 1.030 (usually about 10 minutes) on top of my stove, to sanitize and go from about 1.018 (where my sparges tend to be at that time) to 1.030. Then I fill a tupperware pitcher (2 quarts) and freeze. It's not a huge amount at a time, but I usually have some wort (or DME in the cupboard) around for starters that way.

I make 10 gallon batches most of the time. What I like to do is make a starter for the yeast, and then split my 10 gallons into 2 five gallon fermenters. Then, I save and rinse the yeast cakes and divide that into jars for the fridge. I buy yeast only once or twice a year, because then each yeast packages is good for about 10 batches before I buy fresh.

I just purchased $42 of yeast, so I'll be good now until late fall. Starters are a great way to ensure good quality beer by proper pitching rate, plus a good way to save money on yeast.

That is a super awesome idea.

 

[forstmeister]

How long do you let the yeast propagate in your starter before pitching? How do you know when there are enough yeast cells? Also, do you pour off the liquid and only pitch the slurry, or do you pitch the whole dang thing?

You can do your starter a couple days to a week before brew day. Use a calculator like www.mrmalty.com to figure out how big of a starter to make based on type of yeast and gravity and batch size. The math is done for you based on research. Most people seem to build the starter a couple days ahead of time, cold crash it in the fridge overnight and decant most of the beer off the morning of brew day. Then set it out to warm up to room temp, and swirl it before pitching to get the yeast back into suspension. Pitch what's left into your wort. Done.

 

[homebrewbeliever]

18-24 hrs is usually enough time on a stir plate. I usually let the yeast settle and pitch the thick slurry. Fermenter space usually dictates.

I do not have a stir plate and I'm a grad student on a pretty tight budget... how long should I let the yeast propagate without a stir plate, and could I just use a growler with an airlock on it that I swirl occasionally throughout the day?

 

[homebrewbeliever]

You can do your starter a couple days to a week before brew day. Use a calculator like www.mrmalty.com to figure out how big of a starter to make based on type of yeast and gravity and batch size. The math is done for you based on research. Most people seem to build the starter a couple days ahead of time, cold crash it in the fridge overnight and decant most of the beer off the morning of brew day. Then set it out to warm up to room temp, and swirl it before pitching to get the yeast back into suspension. Pitch what's left into your wort. Done.

Bam. Thanks! I'm going to try this. I did have an IIPA that I brewed recently that ended a bit too sweet. I thought it was because I had used too many crystal malts, but they really only made up around 7% of the grain bill which shouldn't be too much (IMO, but please feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Now I am thinking that it may have just been under-attenuated and I should have used a starter.