DME into cold water in fermenter

[Johntodd]

Hi! I'm tired of clumping DME and tired of boilovers.

Can I just do this:

1. Boil hops in plain water.
2. Chill.
3. Mix DME with cold water in the fermentor.
4. Add hops tea.
5. Pitch yeast.
6. Lock it down and put on blow-off tube.

I always make a 1-gallon starter anyway, and DME straight from the bag should be safe. I don't think contamination is a real risk this way. The fermenter will be treated with StarSan, of course.

Thanks!
-Johntodd

 

[TexasDroughtBrewery]

I would just suggest a larger size pot also stir it more often and watch it closer. Also measure out what you need before hand put it in a bowl or something that easily dumps so your bag or extra does not clump.

You need to boil to make sure it dissolves and you need to boil the hops for the right bitterness....I don't think you can skip a boil. ALSO it helps make sure everything pre boil is sanitized. So many reasons why you need to boil and so few fixable reasons why not to.

 

[casualbrewer]

Could just add the dme at flameout... won't foam up, will have more predictable color, and should pretty much kill anything. Probably no need to boil extracts very long anyway.

 

[Johntodd]

I appreciate the responses, I really do. But these don't address my issue with clumping. Seems that hot water is what causes the hard clumps.

Ive done late additions and also adding DME at flameout. No boilovers, but still hard clumping.

I think I will try my cold-water method. Most it could cost me is a batch of beer.

Thanks!
-Johntodd

 

[Roland_deschain]

I've never had clumping like you've described. I dump my DME in and stir...do you take it off the heat when you add it?

Roland

 

[kombat]

Is your DME clumpy even before you add it to the water? What I mean is, is it clumpy in the bag? Sounds like it may be a storage issue. Are you keeping your DME completely dry in storage, or is it possible moisture from the air is getting into the bags and causing it to clump up?

 

[Chanoc]

DME is highly hygroscopic (sp??), therefore it will absorb moisture from the vapour of the boiling liquid.
This moistens the outer layer and traps air, the trapped air prevents the inner part of the powder get wet.
Maybe you are using cold DME or at least a little bit too cold.
Try bringing the DME to a warmer temp before atempting to pour.
HTH.

 

[mongoose33]

Hi! I'm tired of clumping DME and tired of boilovers.

I don't have any thoughts on clumping of DME, but w/r/t boilovers, I keep a spray bottle filled with plain water handy during my boils--if the kettle looks like it's going to boil over, I spray the water on the foam and it settles it right down.

Might be worth a try.

 

[cannman]

Keep in mind that the DME isn't sterile and little critters can be hanging around in there if you don't at least do a pasteurization. If you have a pressure canner:

Fill 1L mason jar with warm water to and DME. Shake. Depending on how much DME you need, you may need to use a few jars. Place in pressure cooker and can. The next day, you can pitch this cold and feel better about your bacterial count.

From what I understand about beer, because your sugars will not be available for the full boil, you should expect a different tasting beer than if you full boiled. But if boil over is your issue, your best solution is FermCap or a bigger kettle or a partial boil.

 

[lliBdliW]

The clumping is from pouring the DME too fast, not letting it dissolve and not stirring constantly.
I agree with putting the DME into a bowl. Its easier to control than a 3lb or 5lb bag of DME. You must boil. It's not a good step to skip. You want all ingredients to "mix/blend" in order to achieve your desired results from the recipe.
My suggestions as follows...
Put the DME into a bowl. Slowly pour into your boiling water, stir constantly and be sure to let it dissolve. You do not want the undissolved to caramelize and scorch the bottom of your brew pot. (Same goes for any liquid ingredients)

Former DME user......

 

[JimRausch]

Hmm- IME, I get clumping of DME with cold water, not hot. If you don't already, cut off the heat before adding the DME, and stir. For me, it dissolves in 30 seconds or less. Now boilover- yup that happens. As cannman mentions, let Fermcap be your friend. I did 6.5G boils in a 7G kettle for 3 years before getting a 10G kettle this Spring. Fermcap, spray bottle, watch it like a hawk, and a good hand on the regulator kept boilovers to a minimum.

 

[christyle]

Stop being lazy

I did extract for awhile and it's not hard to do it right. Fermcap, pour slowly, watch the boil until hot break, keep an eye on it after, etc. I did 6.5 gal boils in a 7G kettle for years as well. A bigger pot won't be your silver bullet either, i've had boilovers in a 16 gal pot for a 5 gal batch. You have to watch it a little no matter what. I belieeeeeve boiling the DME helps caramelize the sugars some (unsure if good or bad really), but can also help boil out some of the impurities or DMS maybe? As has been said, a touch more patience will help you here. RDHAHB

 

[kombat]

Keep in mind that the DME isn't sterile and little critters can be hanging around in there if you don't at least do a pasteurization.

It may not be sterile, but I believe it is quite sanitary. That is, it is an environment extremely inhospitable to microbes (due to the virtual dearth of any moisture). There may be other good reasons for heating/boiling your DME, but I don't believe there's any validity to the concern over contamination. I've never heard of anyone tracing an infected batch back to unboiled or unpasteurized DME that harboured contaminants.

 

[visorbill]

I have great luck by starting the boil and as the water is heating up pouring the DME in and stirring, by the time it gets to boil all the clumps are gone. One more thing to consider, however, is you won't get as much bittering from the hops just boiling them in water. The hops isomerize better in a malt solution.

 

[Johntodd]

So for hops utilization, how about a cup or a pint of DME in the boil?

 

[visorbill]

All the sources I've read state that you want to have at least 1.030 specific gravity for optimum hop utilization. But I've also read that you want to use approximately one quarter of your total DME for the boil and save the last three quarters of the DME in your recipe for the last five minutes. In that way your hop boil does not affect the final color of your beer. Because if you boil DME it'll tend to darken it.

 

[Sadu]

So if you are getting clumping with hot water but not cold, can you not just add DME to cold water then bring that to the boil? Then add hops and continue as normal?

 

[visorbill]

That's how I do it. Put the water on to boil, add dme and stir. By the time the water comes up to temp the dme is all mixed in.

 

[Johntodd]

OK, I did it. I've tried my new method.

I used a pressure cooker for the hops (10 minutes), put 3 gallons of cold tap water in the fermenter and whisked in the DME, pitched a gallon of starter, added the hops tea (from the PC), topped up to 5 gallons, whisked to aerate and mix.

So far, so good. She's a-bubblin' nicely, and smells great for a wort that just started last Saturday.

Time will tell. This beer recipe usually finishes primary in 7 days. I'll post results, including OG/FG, etc., next weekend.

Thanks for the help! If this new process works out, I may have launched a mini-revolution in homebrew. If it doesn't work out, then forget you ever read any of this!

-Johntodd

 

[Brub0b]

I usually use the cold water dme method, works fine for me. Have tried using hot water and like you, had problems with clumping. I haven't really heard any convincing arguments for not just using cold water, and wonder if it just a hangover from all grain brewing. I would be interested to know if you think using cold water has any impact on end product, let us know what you think of yr experimental batch!

 

[Johntodd]

Thanks, I will post more when details come in.

Right now, it's still fermenting! This is day 11 and I'm still getting slow bloops through the airlock. It smells great, and I think it's going to work out nicely.

So your DME method is like mine? Put it in a sanitized fermenter and stir in with cold water?

Hey, a new vocabulary term: "Stir-in" Use it in a sentence: "Extract brewers don't mash-in, they stir-in."

Stay tuned;
-Johntodd

 

[Penghu Brews]

So... I know this is a (very) old thread but I'm curious... What happened? Did it work out? Do you still use this method?

 

[tellyho]

Check out this thread

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/660389/

 

[Miraculix]

You don't need any dme for hop utilisation.

In fact, plain water can hold and utilise way more ibus than wort therefore your will take this into account when calculating ibus, otherwise your beer gets too bitter.

I used hop tea a lot myself, this "you need dissolved sugars for utilisation" is a complete myth, as well as "plain water results in grassy flavor".

Go for it, your plan sounds solid.

 

[Dave Sarber]

Well, when I make canned starter from dme and water, then pressure can it, I always end up with proteins in the bottom of the jar. No problem to filter the egg drops out when I'm making a starter.
So, using cold water, these proteins don't form and settle out. Ergo, they are still in your wort, just not formed and settled out in the trub. Seems to me that would cause the beer to stale faster?

 

[SKBugs]

Why boil? Isn’t the DME already boiled? Isn’t that how they get the powder? I add DME as part of a braggot and simply add it as part of the must and then stir it in. I’ve never encountered any problems and have made drinkable stuff.

 

[Dave Sarber]

DME is not boiled. It is mashed, then spray dried. LME is probably boiled (?).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

DME is not boiled. It is mashed, then spray dried. LME is probably boiled (?).

Have you ever been curious about how Briess makes CBW® Extracts?

http://blog.brewingwithbriess.com/the-cbw-brewing-process/

 

[Dave Sarber]

Ok. So, the proteins formed when I boil the powder? Proteins not formed when dissolving DME in cold water? What happens to these proteins? They don't just disappear.

 

[bucketnative]

The proteins don't "form" upon boiling; they are already in the DME/LME/wort. When you boil them, the proteins (which are molecules, the size of which do not allow them to be seen with the naked eye) will denature (lose their natural order), and then agglomerate (clump together) to form particles that are visible with the naked eye. The agglomeration can continue to the point that the large "egg drop" or "brain-like" masses form in the hot/cooling wort. The cooling drives the agglomeration, which is why cold break tends to form larger clumps than does hot break.

If you dissolve the DME in cold water, you don't have the thermal driving force present during boiling to denature the proteins, so you don't get those large clumps forming.