DME at flame-out ?!

[hector]

Hi there !

If I brew a batch using light DME and steeping grains , can most of the extract be added at flame-out ?!

Hector

 

[Yooper]

Yes, but DME is sometimes hard to dissolve. If you use a whisk and stir well, it should work. You may have to put it back on the heat just to make sure the lumps are all broken up.

 

[swoof]

Whenever I do a late addition of DME I collect about 2 quarts of my wort into a smaller pot and add the DME to that over low heat while whisking. Once all the clumps are broken up and i have a smooth mini-wort I add it back to the boil kettle.

 

[Rev2010]

If DME is known to not really darken as opposed to LME (because of LME's thickness/weight and sinking straight to the bottom of the pot) is there even really a need for late extract DME additions? I did a test once and posted it here and found really no difference when using DME. Never did an LME test or a more thorough DME test but it was enough for me to know that even if there is any DME darkening it's so minuscule to not really be noticeable.


Rev.

 

[solbes]

If you have very little extract in the boil until the very end, your 60 minue bittering hop utilization will go through the roof. You'll have to account for that.

 

[cervezarara]

Hector-- I assume you are doing a partial boil. If so, I believe you should try to match the boiling wort gravity with the OG of the topped off wort, so hops utilization is consistent with the recipe. Thus if your partial boil volume is, say, half of the final volume, add about half of the DME for the 60 minute boil and half at or near flame out. If you are boiling smaller volumes, add less DME up front and more toward the end of the boil.

I do many partial boils, and the late addition is always difficult to dissolve, as Yooper said. There is also a slight break that occurs about 5 minutes after the addition, so I try to time this addition to allow this break to occur.

If you have the ability to do a full boil, I don't think there is really any need to do late addition for DME as Rev2010 points out.

 

[hector]

I assume you are doing a partial boil. If so, I believe you should try to match the boiling wort gravity with the OG of the topped off wort, so hops utilization is consistent with the recipe.

I do partial boil because of two reasons :

1- To get rid of darkening

2- To prevent the malt being caramelized and obtaining less unfermentables

My boil Volume is bigger than the final Volume . For example , my last batch was a small test batch ( 1 liter , O.G. = 1.050 ) .

I dissolved 1/3 of the DME in 1.5 liters of water and boiled it . After 45 minutes , I added the rest of the malt and boiled for 15 minutes .

After cooling , I had 750 ml of wort and topped up to 1 liter .

Hector

 

[Toy4Rick]

In my albeit very little experience :cross: and from what I have read, a partial boil increases caramelization, since you have a much higher gravity wort it leads to caramelization. If you do a full boil to reduce this affect, you will also need to reduce your hops as a lower gravity wort yields a better hop utilization.

Toy4Rick

 

[Calder]

If you have very little extract in the boil until the very end, your 60 minue bittering hop utilization will go through the roof. You'll have to account for that.

If you do a full boil you will also need to reduce your hops as a lower gravity wort yields a better hop utilization.

Run the numbers thru a program, and you will find hop utilization difference will be about 10% difference (30 IBUs vs 33 IBUs). It's not worth worrying about. We get more variation due to hop age/storage, boil activity, pellets vs leaf, etc.

 

[unionrdr]

You would only increase caramelization in a partial boil if you added all the malt during the boil. Hence the late addition method.

 

[Toy4Rick]

I did a late addition, 2/3 of the LME in fact and still had some caramelization which is why I switched to DME for my Hef recipe and now I have none. Can't wait for it to carb up so I can jump into it.

Have been cracking my English Porter and it too has the familiar caramel taste, the next brew will be adjusted to use DME

Toy4Rick

 

[DacotahBrewing]

Run the numbers thru a program, and you will find hop utilization difference will be about 10% difference (30 IBUs vs 33 IBUs). It's not worth worrying about. We get more variation due to hop age/storage, boil activity, pellets vs leaf, etc.

My last batch I did the math by hand, and found it to be much higher than that. At least with my last batch my 60min addition was attributing ~60ibu (id have to pull up beersmith) and when I adjusted my utilization rate for a lower wort gravity it was up around 100. Maybe I did something wrong, but I doubt it. I was working straight out of Palmer's book and had a similar result when I compared my original ibu with the original wort og (1.106) but still, I could be wrong. I have only been at this for 8 months.

 

[Yooper]

My last batch I did the math by hand, and found it to be much higher than that. At least with my last batch my 60min addition was attributing ~60ibu (id have to pull up beersmith) and when I adjusted my utilization rate for a lower wort gravity it was up around 100. Maybe I did something wrong, but I doubt it. I was working straight out of Palmer's book and had a similar result when I compared my original ibu with the original wort og (1.106) but still, I could be wrong. I have only been at this for 8 months.

Palmer recently (2008) has come out and said that he was wrong about the impact of gravity of the wort on IBUs. Basic Brewing Radio did an experiment about a year ago where they did a partial boil, full boil, and late extract addition of the same beer and found NO discernible differences between the IBUs of any of them.

I would suggest no changes, but if you wanted to be ultra careful, you could reduce bittering hops by 10% in a late extract addition and still be safe.

 

[hector]

I did a late addition, 2/3 of the LME in fact and still had some caramelization which is why I switched to DME...

If it's really so , then I should have no problem since I use light DME .

Hector

 

[TriggerFingers]

If you have very little extract in the boil until the very end, your 60 minue bittering hop utilization will go through the roof. You'll have to account for that.

In other words, your beer will be much more bitter than you planned. My Red Ale turned into an IPA this way. Its ok, because I love IPA's too.

 

[JonK331]

In other words, your beer will be much more bitter than you planned. My Red Ale turned into an IPA this way. Its ok, because I love IPA's too.

See Yooper's response.

 

[hector]

In other words, your beer will be much more bitter than you planned.

I've already brewed two batches by using late extract addition method and I've always had Beer with a mild bitterness .

Hector

 

[unionrdr]

I've used late extract additions for all but one of my ales,& the bittering has been low to average.

 

[solbes]

Interesting. Well I have shifted a portion of hops towards the end of the boil based on late LME additions. I haven't noticed them being low on bitterness, which you think would be the case if Palmer was wrong (didn't he have a chart showing hop utliziation vs gravity of boil?).

Of course my internal IBU bitterness measurement do-hickey could need recalibration as well.

 

[unionrdr]

I used hop bursting (late additions) & late extract additions on my ales. Most notably my dual APA/IPA recipe. Worked real well,but I'm going to add a 4th pound of light DME next batches. Needs a bit more back bone. The hop bursting,especially with "C" hops,gives some sensation of bittering,imo. It's my theory that that which gives citrus it's particular flavor is & of itself part of the tartness of the actual fruit. It seems to me that when something non-citrus has a citrus flavor,that tartness must be there. It's what carries/produces the citrus flavor,imo. So it could be perceived as bittering.

 

[hector]

Does the late addition method lead to DMS off-flavor ?

I listened recently to a Podcast about DMS and John Palmer said that 60-minute-boil is enough for Extract and at least

90 minutes for all-grain batches . Although , the wort has already been boiled to produce the Extract industrially , but it's

done in lower pressures and therefore in lower boiling points and there are still some DMS precursors in the Extract .

So , what would happen if DME is added at flame-out ?!

Hector