Dissolving chalk?

[Miraculix]

In the latest Brulosophy Exbeeriment Gypsum was added to one American Pale Ale, doubling it's SO4 ppm, and not added to another otherwise identical American Pale Ale. Calcium of course went way up also for the beer that received the huge dose of Gypsum. Of 21 testers, only 4 claimed to be able to notice any difference. That's about as statistically definitive as it gets as to the irrelevance of adding a bunch of excess Gypsum.

The moral of the story is: Why torture yourself attempting to boost Calcium via Chalk addition(s), when you are not going to notice if it was done via the application of such torture, or via simply adding CaSO4 (or likely also CaCl2).

PS: I've been on record saying much the same thing for some time now. I.E., that the most likely event will be that you won't notice a difference.

Nice try brulosophy. I like the guys, seriously, but sometimes I wonder why it seems that they don't really think so many of their experiments through completely.

Here again, high sulphate checked against higher sulphate.... What's the purpose? Would have been much better to check low against high.

And then why post-fermentation? Who adds water salts post fermentation? Where's the value of checking it this way instead of pre-mash which would be how people are brewing?


Honestly, this tells me nothing.

 

[beerisyummy]

AFAICT, Kai Troester designed and maintains the Brewers Friend mash pH adjustment software. Did he design it to reflect the poor solubility of Calcium Carbonate as per his research and compensate for it internally thereby. That would seem logical.

Aha! That would perhaps explain the higher-than-predicted mash pH, if in fact I was able to coax the Ca to dissolve? Usually the BF water predictions are very accurate.

 

[beerisyummy]

The solution should clear after a while.

See instructions and pictures here:

https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk

Noted. Thanks for this, great info!

 

[mabrungard]

On a geologic time scale, chalk is completely soluble. Unfortunately, none of us mash for millennia. So functionally, chalk is a useless addition in mashing chemistry since there is little acidity available to dissolve it in a reasonable time in ANY mash. To confirm that point, I can point to a major Indiana brewery with a very low alkalinity water supply that couldn't effectively reduce the pH drop on their Porter. They had been trying chalk in the mash for years, but their result was not satisfactory. They hired me to help them correct that beer and the answer was obvious after I found out that they were using chalk. I had them switch to pickling lime and the rest is history. After GABF and WBC medals, I'd say it was a success.

For those that say that chalk works in a mash, I'd ask: what's your proof? You think it works...or do you have actual pH measurements with a reliable meter? It will have to be the later, if you want me to believe your result.

Regarding calcium lactate supplements, that could be an alternative for adding calcium to your wort. But I have to ask why would a brewer want to use it??? For those commercial supplements, they have a variety of fillers that you might not want in your beer. I can't recommend their use. Fortunately for Bru'n Water users, its easy to formulate your own calcium lactate addition by plugging in a dose of chalk into the program along with a lactic acid dose. Bru'n Water reports the alkalinity dose of the chalk as a positive HCO3 concentration. You then figure out the proper amount of lactic acid by adding a dose that results in a negative HCO3 concentration equal to the chalk's concentration. Mix those two components together and let them react before adding to the mashing water. There will be little or no pH effect since you've canceled out each alkalinity/acidity component. This technique is desirable if you're brewing with low alkalinity water and want to mimic the effect of adding a good dose of saurergut to alkaline mashing water. There are several Bavarian styles that may benefit from the technique.

For those of you that want to create a natural chalk solution, add chalk and a low alkalinity water to a pressurizable container and add CO2 pressure. After shaking and letting it come to equilibrium for a few days, you'll have a dissolved chalk solution. It's a pain in the a$$, but its possible. Personally, I recommend other ways to add the alkalinity that you're needing. They're easier!

 

[CleanEmUpIves]

There will be little or no pH effect since you've canceled out each alkalinity/acidity component. This technique is desirable if you're brewing with low alkalinity water and want to mimic the effect of adding a good dose of saurergut to alkaline mashing water. There are several Bavarian styles that may benefit from the technique.

What effect are you referring to that is mimicked?

 

[AlexKay]

On a geologic time scale, chalk is completely soluble. Unfortunately, none of us mash for millennia. So functionally, chalk is a useless addition in mashing chemistry since there is little acidity available to dissolve it in a reasonable time in ANY mash. To confirm that point, I can point to a major Indiana brewery with a very low alkalinity water supply that couldn't effectively reduce the pH drop on their Porter. They had been trying chalk in the mash for years, but their result was not satisfactory. They hired me to help them correct that beer and the answer was obvious after I found out that they were using chalk. I had them switch to pickling lime and the rest is history. After GABF and WBC medals, I'd say it was a success.

For those that say that chalk works in a mash, I'd ask: what's your proof? You think it works...or do you have actual pH measurements with a reliable meter? It will have to be the later, if you want me to believe your result.

Regarding calcium lactate supplements, that could be an alternative for adding calcium to your wort. But I have to ask why would a brewer want to use it??? For those commercial supplements, they have a variety of fillers that you might not want in your beer. I can't recommend their use. Fortunately for Bru'n Water users, its easy to formulate your own calcium lactate addition by plugging in a dose of chalk into the program along with a lactic acid dose. Bru'n Water reports the alkalinity dose of the chalk as a positive HCO3 concentration. You then figure out the proper amount of lactic acid by adding a dose that results in a negative HCO3 concentration equal to the chalk's concentration. Mix those two components together and let them react before adding to the mashing water. There will be little or no pH effect since you've canceled out each alkalinity/acidity component. This technique is desirable if you're brewing with low alkalinity water and want to mimic the effect of adding a good dose of saurergut to alkaline mashing water. There are several Bavarian styles that may benefit from the technique.

For those of you that want to create a natural chalk solution, add chalk and a low alkalinity water to a pressurizable container and add CO2 pressure. After shaking and letting it come to equilibrium for a few days, you'll have a dissolved chalk solution. It's a pain in the a$$, but its possible. Personally, I recommend other ways to add the alkalinity that you're needing. They're easier!

I ordered pure calcium lactate, food grade, sold to people who want to try spherification at home. (Amazon has everything, doesn't it?)

As to why a brewer would want to use it, Palmer (in Water) says, "Calcium is the friend of all brewers who brew with alkaline water. The reaction with malt phosphates is one of the primary mechanisms for the mash pH drop. It is remarkably flavorless. It protects, stabilizes, and promotes enzyme activity in the mash. It aids in protein coagulation, trub formation, oxalate precipitation, yeast metabolism, and yeast flocculation. The calcium levels in the water need to be high enough to carry sufficient levels through the boil and fermentation. A range of 50-200 ppm in the water for the mash is recommended."

Generally, getting 50 ppm is no problem, except for the times I'm targeting low concentrations of both chloride and sulfate. It's these cases where I (and I think the OP) am wondering whether calcium lactate might be useful. Hence the Bo Pils plan, though now I'm wondering: Is the "soft" taste of the style due to low chloride and sulfate, or is it actually low calcium levels directly? (Googling gives me numbers of 40-1000+ ppm for the calcium taste threshold.)

 

[whattabrau]

For those that say that chalk works in a mash, I'd ask: what's your proof? You think it works...or do you have actual pH measurements with a reliable meter? It will have to be the later, if you want me to believe your result.

I'll answer the second part first. I have an MW-102 which I calibrate periodically and also on the rare occasion that the measurement is far off from the hypothesized value, though I cannot recall recalibration ever dramatically changing the measurement (>0.05).

I have a supporting anecdote for chalk affecting the mash pH. I'm not sure I'd call it "proof", but an observation that I have been able to explain only by chalk having an impact.

I have water with high temporary alkalinity (~80mg/L Ca, 320mg/L HCO3), so I pre-boil it for light beers. At some point I read that adding chalk when boiling adds nucleation sites, and causes more CaCO3 to drop out, so I did that, and indeed the post-boil TDS reading was something like 10% lower. Without added chalk the water clears in maybe 1h, while with added chalk it takes something like 12h (and if someone can explain what the difference is due to, please). Since I often boil the same day, the first time I did it I proceeded anyway without waiting for the water to clear, and decanted the cloudy water when there was the usual layer at the bottom of the kettle. The resulting pH was as expected (yes, yes, keep reading ;-). However, in the next brews doing the same with cloudy water my mash pH was through the roof. After significant head-scratching I pinpointed the differences as a) the first beer was higher gravity than usual b) I switched from acidulated malt to lactic acid after the first. Playing around in Bru'n Water, I recall discovering that acidulated malt is not accounted for as 3% lactic acid, but uses some other formula, which led the high-gravity beer to being acidified proportionally more, and therefore cancelling the chalk still in suspension. In subsequent brews, when I waited for the water to completely clear before decanting, the Bru'n Water predictions started nearing the measured values with lactic acid. So, I concluded that the chalk in suspension does have an impact on pH.

To double-check if my conclusion was correct, I prepared water samples mimicking the cloudy/clear boiled waters as described above, and titrated. Indeed it takes more acid to drop the cloudy one (my notes from a few years ago are probably in some stratum on my desk, and if putting a number on "more" is important, I can try to dig them out).

Now, granted, that's an anecdote about chalk I wanted to remove affecting the mash pH, not added chalk affecting it. I am *not* implying that other observations from adding chalk are inaccurate. The only difference I can imagine is the boiling. Maybe the boiling physically "unclumps" the chalk so that it's extremely fine-grained in suspension? (completely thinking out loud there)

In any case, everyone [with a pH meter] can try titration to see if chalk has an effect. If it doesn't, try boiling the water with the chalk to see if it makes a difference -- I did not test adding chalk to water without boiling the water, as I was working in the confines of what was relevant to me. If even that doesn't make an observable difference, and there is no water with high temporary alkalinity available, one could dissolve chalk into carbonated water as you suggested, and boil that, and repeat the titration, to minimize the different variables in the experiments.

Also, in the riddle-me-this department, if undissolved chalk doesn't affect the pH, why decant at all after boiling? Every text I've come across for removing temporary alkalinity by boiling is boil-wait-decant.

Finally, on a mildly related tangent, I also tried gypsum for nucleation sites to drop CaCO3 out, since gypsum is supposed to have poor solubility at high temperatures, but it did not drop the TDS reading -- accounting for the extra TDS from gypsum -- so I guess it's "soluble enough".

 

[AlexKay]

Bo Pils brewday was yesterday. I treated 4 gallons of RO with 0.5 g CaSO4, 0.5 g NaCl, 0.35 g CaCl2, 3.5 g calcium lactate, and 10 mL 10% phosphoric. I didn't do a taste comparison on the water with and without the lactate, but the taste of the water was neutral and pleasant.

Grist was 4.5 lbs. of Pilsner malt, mashed with all the water (BIAB). pH after ~30 minutes was 5.0. This is substantially lower than my last light beer (a Helles) which used a pretty similar water profile and the same acid addition, without the calcium lactate, and came in at 5.4. Maybe the higher calcium levels are to blame (credit) for this?

 

[jerrylotto]

I didn't mean chalk at all though. I goofed. I'll fix it - meant to type "Calcium Chloride is Ca and Cl2".

My intent was to give other, more commonly used, dissolvable options, in case they've been overlooked.

No it it is Ca++ and 2 Cl- (imagine the pluses and minuses are superscripted)