disparity between wine makers and beer makers

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bitterbad

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I'm noticing that there's a lot more resources and conversations and clubs centered around brewing beer than making wines and mead. I mean look at this forum, there's 18 categories for beer brewing and then one each for wine and mead. Why is this? Surely the disparity between people in general who like wine and people who like beer is much more even? My guess is that beer just takes less time to make, so it's easier to make something, show it off, get feedback, and then make something else; is this accurate?

Also where can I find wine making clubs and such, I've tried looking but all I can find are dedicated to beer. Do I just need to like, find the one other wine maker in my area and ask to be his single apprentice or something?
 
I'm noticing that there's a lot more resources and conversations and clubs centered around brewing beer than making wines and mead. I mean look at this forum, there's 18 categories for beer brewing and then one each for wine and mead. Why is this? Surely the disparity between people in general who like wine and people who like beer is much more even? My guess is that beer just takes less time to make, so it's easier to make something, show it off, get feedback, and then make something else; is this accurate?

Also where can I find wine making clubs and such, I've tried looking but all I can find are dedicated to beer. Do I just need to like, find the one other wine maker in my area and ask to be his single apprentice or something?

Go to gotmead.com and I'm pretty sure all you will see is mead discussions and recipes. There's probably a similar winemaking forum somewhere. I think it's interesting (not that I disapprove) that there are any categories here at all for wine and mead.
 
I mean look at this forum, there's 18 categories for beer brewing and then one each for wine and mead. Why is this?
Because it’s “HomebrewTalk”.com
There just happens to be a sister site called WinemakingTalk . com

Edit: @hawkwing posted as I was editing.
 
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Because it’s “HomebrewTalk”.com
There just happens to be a sister site called WinemakingTalk . com

Edit: @hawkwing posted as I was editing.

I see! I've never come across this site! I found this site by looking up stuff about wine making and this is the only one that ever showed up. Wack. Well thanks.
 
Well, the question still stands. Do you think there's a disparity? What's everyone else's experiences?
 
Brewing beer is more challenging than making wine. I don't see any disparity, tbh.
To me, wine is more about chemistry. Way more than beer. Acid titration and stuff like that. There seem to be way more “chemicals” or additives that go in wine than beer. Beer takes longer and is more of a process on brew day with mash and boil and hop utilization but we have software that makes all that easy. I always found the chemistry part of wine making to be more challenging and feel like you almost need to be a chemist to make good wine.

We drink wine regularly, usually with food more so than beer. I buy almost all my wine but brew a significant portion of the beer I drink. Because I still also buy good beer.

My experience related to wine making is box kits from Wineexpert. Literally dump, add water, and stir. They give you pre-adjusted must and numbered, pre-measured packets with each chemical additiion. Thats easy enough and I’ve had decent results, though honestly not better than even most of the “cheaper” wines you can buy for $8 a bottle nowadays. The kits are expensive, now around $150-$200 for a 6 gallon kit that makes about 30 bottles.

Doing it from fresh juice or squeezing your own grapes would be a whole different challenge. Again, its all chemistry.
 
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I picked grapes from the driveway fence,deboned them, put in pot ,mashed with potato masher,took to 180*,added 6 lbs sugar,stirred until no more gritty sound. Added CaCl2 and CaSO4 and fermaid K (No chemicals yet)? Chilled to 76* with enough water for a 2.5 gal ferment. Pitched a slurry from a 5 gal ale ferment of Lutra with 4 min of O2 at 1/8 L/ min. OG 1.092 , FG 1.002.
The question is, did I make wine mead or cider? Either way I learned most of these techniques here.
 
To me, wine is more about chemistry. Way more than beer. Acid titration and stuff like that. There seem to be way more “chemicals” or additives that go in wine than beer. Beer takes longer and is more of a process on brew day with mash and boil and hop utilization but we have software that makes all that easy. I always found the chemistry part of wine making to be more challenging and feel like you almost need to be a chemist to make good wine.
Wine chemistry is about the equivalent of building water and adjusting mash ph. And to add to it, I would consider adding all that stuff to your wine to be chemistry, as apposed to winemaking. But that's my two cents, and adjusted for inflation, that would be worthless. I don't mean to knock your style, but beer is entirely more involved. Not everyone uses software. I calculate everything myself since I've noticed every program gives me different results. I'll also have to disagree with the "you almost need to be a chemistry to make good wine" comment. Thats entirely subjective. I've been making cider and wine by simply juicing them and letting the flora do the work with no chemicals for 10 years with great results. It's no store bought taste, but I don't like most of the commercially produced stuff.
Beer is by far the most popular alcoholic beverage in the world. Brewing beer is more challenging than making wine. I don't see any disparity, tbh.
+2
+1, not as much of a learning curve. my experience making cider, add yeast to the juice? maybe i am missing something?
I don't even do that! Juice it and it will ferment on its own
 
It's no store bought taste, but I don't like most of the commercially produced stuff.
Nothing wrong with that and thats why many people got into this and make their own on both sides. Beer people who don’t like commercial beer, which I guess is fine if you’re talking macro lagers but there is so much out there it would be impossible to say somebody doesn’t like any commercial beer. Wine makers who don’t like commercially produced wine or don’t want to spend $25 and up for “the good stuff”. Though honestly really good wine can be had less than $10 a bottle now.

The beauty is everybody can make what they want.

When you talk about what is wine, its an all encompassing category of fermented fruits and sugars. Mead is honey, cider is apples, and both of those technically fall under wine.

When you talk about beer, it is a category of beverages fermented from grain as opposed to fruits and sugars.

Within beer and wine are established styles of each that are defined and have parameters. If you want to make Cabernet you use those grapes. If you want to make British beer then you use British grains and hops. You don’t ferment Chablis grapes and call it Chianti. You don’t use saison yeast and call it a lager.

So you’re not comparing your homemade stuff to the pros unless you’re doing what they are, using what they are using and following the rules
 
Ha ha for all you guys who think beer making is more complex than wine making obviously are only making kit wines. If you want to compare a kit wine you have to compare it to a kit beer. If you want to compare all grain you need to compare to whole grapes. Then the complexity goes way up. Your into crushing and destemming. Then there’s the chemistry. Then there is the technique. Are you cold soaking before fermenting. Are you using enzymes. There are often two fermentations for red. One to make alcohol then a bacterial to convert malic acid. You have to punch the grapes down 2-3 times a day for several days. Are you doing an extended maceration? Then there is pressing out the juice.

Then there is the aging aspect. Beer you want to drink early most of the time. Wine is many months or years of storage.

Now all that said. The real reason is probably cost, convenience and time. Wine is much more expensive for the ingredients and grapes are not as easy to store as grain and hops. Beer is a one day brew not a week or several of attention.
 
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But the issue is about fewer number of wine making clubs vs beer brewing groups, not the complexity of fermentation of complex or simple sugars... and bitterbad's initial post resonates with me. In my neck of the woods (upstate NY) there are several beer brewing clubs but no active wine making groups. And why that is, is not immediately clear unless brewers often brew together whereas wine makers may not - except that those wine makers who make wine from grapes (not kits) may often need to call in the help of many to help harvest, crush and press if they make large batches (we are talking about 15 lbs of grapes or so, for every gallon of wine and they may be making 25 -30 gallons or more of wine from one variety of grape.
 
It might be really simple and possibly obvious enough that we missed it. It’s very common to go out for a beer with friends. Not as common to go for wine. That could possibly be distilled down to cost though. But the popularity probably has something to do with it.

It could just be a reason to see buddies too.
 
It might be really simple and possibly obvious enough that we missed it. It’s very common to go out for a beer with friends. Not as common to go for wine. That could possibly be distilled down to cost though. But the popularity probably has something to do with it.

It could just be a reason to see buddies too.
There is some snobbery around wine. No more so than the people who stand in line for hours for the latest hazy craft ipa though. We call them wine snobs and beer hipsters.
 
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The wine is dark. And full of terroir.
 
The reason why there are fewer winemaking groups (at least in the US) is the difficulty of making great wine and especially doing it from grape, rather than kit. Modern winemaking is more fussy than brewing, grapes or fresh must can only be acquired generally in one small window of the year, and the leap to produce good wine is a lot more challenging than learning to brew great beer. It's not like beer where you can start on a kit and progress incrementally into all the more hands-on parts of brewing.

Most home winemaking is either country wine or kit wine. There's nothing wrong with country wine but it's a small slice of the wine market (at least in the US) and talking about pouring a kit wine in a carboy doesn't lead to a lot of great conversation. Nothing wrong with making wine kits but of all the people I know who have made wine kits I know very few who ever advanced past kits or seemed eager to talk about their adventures with winemaking.
 
of all the people I know who have made wine kits I know very few who ever advanced past kits or seemed eager to talk about their adventures with winemaking.
1) I once threw out the dry yeast that came with my Wineexpert Lodi Old Vines Zinfandel kit and used a liquid Wyeast.

2) I once took an old expired concentrated wine kit and fermented it without adding the water I was supposed to. Then I fortified it with some brandy and called it port wine.

Those are the most advanced things I’ve done with kits and I never made wine from grapes.

This is the time of year right now when homebrew shops are taking orders for grapes and fresh juice. Those who think its easy - go for it.
 
I’ll recommend this one app for anybody who likes wine. Its called Vivino. I’ve been using it for years. Its not about making wine but about buying and enjoying wine.

You can take a picture of a wine label and the app will identify it and tell you everything you want to know about it, including other people’s reviews and even a comparison of vintages year to year. You can take a photo of a wine list in a restaurant and it will rate those and help you there too.

It has modules you can go through that teach you about wine, countries and which wines come from which countries and wine styles.

You can rate the wines and it saves them so you can go back and see them later in case you want to buy them again. I’ve rated 465 wines since I’ve been using it.

Its a free app. I use it frequently and I recommend it.
 
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Well, the question still stands. Do you think there's a disparity? What's everyone else's experiences?

Clearly, it is related to my enjoyment of beers which is more likely to mean I have friends that also brew beer, but I am not sure I have ever meet anybody that makes wine at home. Plenty of my friends dabble in meads and other fruit based alcoholic beverages. My local homebrew show sells wine equipment, so some people must participate in the hobby. I just expect the number of home wine makers is pretty small compared to beer (and mead) makers.

To me, making wine on the professional level is at least 50% about growing the grapes. As a home beer brewer, I have access to almost the exact same ingredients as the best breweries in the world. For meads and other fruits, there are plenty of craft made honey and most people have access to interesting high quality fruit (that may or may not be local).

On the other hand, I do not have access to the same grapes as the best wineries. I am also not sure that if I put all the time and effort into growing grapes myself, that I could even get a product half as good as a wine kit. Maybe it is my ignorance of wine making, but I don't get the appeal of spending $150 for grape juice that I ferment with hopes of making a wine as good as the box wines from Costco. The next step from there seems pretty high, vs beer where there is a steady progression from a simple kit to more advanced brewing.
 
Personally when I say "wine" it's all encompassing with mead and fruit wines.

I guess I'm just weird. I've never used a kit and don't intend to. I got into the hobby by just going outside, picking blackberries, and making that into wine. Didn't even heart about wine kits until after. I don't have much of an interest in making beer because I can't go outside and pick grains—wait, hold on maybe I can though, I wonder if wild grains can make drinkable beer?
 
Grains have to be malted. Its a conversion process they do to be able to get sugar out of them. And you’d need a few pounds even for a small batch.

@bracconiere is our resident home maltster
I see.... well I'll hold onto this idea. Maybe if I just start collecting any ryegrass I see I'll eventually have enough for a batch.
 
Disparity of wine making forums to beer making forums?

Maybe it just indicates that many of the wine making enthusiasts aren't as adept or even interested in making a social platform to gather other wine making enthusiasts around.
 
I started making wine with my Aunt when I was a child. Rough stuff from concentrate and bread yeast. Then I used concord grapes from my grandma's vines. Later I used kits and was not happy with them. Then I bought grapes from growers in Texas and was very happy with the results. I loved making wine but got tired of waiting months to see how well I did. I started making beer and I've never looked back.

As far as one being more complicated than the other they both have their points. With wine you have to have good grapes with a good brick. You can add sugar but it thins the flavors. It is then ph and acid adjustments, timing, and ageing. With beer you have ample access to many types of grains and hops as well as yeast. Making beer has many complexities with matching different grains and ingredients. Then there is water chemistry. I fine IMHO, beer to be more complicated if you want but with quicker results.
As to wine clubs vs beer clubs grapes are hard to come by and barley is not. Brewers as a whole are lousy goosy and wine lovers are more la te da. I've been to many wine bars and when I mentioned I was a Homebrewer I received some snickers. So the next time I brought two large bottles of a beautiful rich chocolate stout. The bar owner allowed me to serve some to a few people and they were so surprised at how wonderful it was. They said they had no idea beer could taste like this. One guy was so impressed he bought me a $57 bottle of cab that I liked and thank me for the experience.
Long story short, there are just more brewers and beer drinkers and wine drinkers have different gathering habits.
 
Everyone here has expressed valid points, and I agree with all of them in some way or another. Personally, I mostly make beer, but I am grateful for the practices and instincts that I gained from making wine, and I use grapes in much of the beer that I make.

I started out making wine before beer because, frankly it seemed simpler, and in a way I still feel that it is. You don’t have to know anything about chemistry, physics or microbiology to make wine. You can go all out on the chemicals, enzymes, lab yeast if you want, or you can just smash the grapes and let them do their thing. Really, given the ph, tannins, potential alcohol content, and microflora of grapes, they seem perfectly engineered to turn into an impressively balanced enjoyable and stable beverage with relatively little intervention. I know that saying that will likely prompt someone to make a response about natural wine being horrible and turning into vinegar, but people all over the world have shown that with a little experience and attention to detail, you can make excellent, surprisingly clean tasting wine without any chemicals (including sulfites) or lab equipment (although I would at least recommend a hydrometer).

The problem with wine is that in order to make really good wine, it is Absolutely vital to have good grapes that have been carefully grown, harvested, and handled post harvest. That can be hard to come by. I currently live in Iowa, and I make some wine, but it’s not going to taste like a Napa Cab no matter how hard you try. In my opinion, the grapes I can get really only work well for funkier things like Pet Nat or wine/beer hybrids. So to make consistently good wine, you can’t always just follow a recipe or a set of basic directions. You have to be flexible, observant, and willing to make quick decisions about harvesting, pressing, bottling, whether or not to add sulfites, etc. and you need to be willing to do those things when the wine needs it, not when it is convenient. Clearly, simpler doesn’t always mean easier. The primary reason I say beer is more complicated, is because it does require more human engineering and intervention. The grains aren't going to malt themselves, the mash water isn’t going to find the right temp on it’s own. Since mashing and boiling will generally kill all yeast and bacteria in the wort, this requires one to inoculate the wort with the microbes necessary for fermentation.

It is lamentable that there is such a divide, between wine makers and brewers, because both groups can be frustratingly narrow minded and dogmatic about their processes, but when you dabble in both worlds, you realize many commonly held ideas are either untrue or at least greatly oversimplified.

Sorry for turning this into a book. I’m sure someone else here could have said all of that a lot more succinctly.
 
It comes down to how involved you want to be. I brew all grain, and some times with a triple decoction mash. My dad has been using a Mr. Beer kit for the past ten years. He's still happy as hell about it, and on the other hand, still loves brewing with me on my system. I make simple wines because that's what I enjoy doing, that's the results I enjoy, and that's the only process I'm going to do. If you're into the fine details of wine making, it's equivalent to diving into water chemistry and the art of sours and lambics. It's not easy to say the least. But it's still less involved when you don't have to recipe build with a grain bill, hops schedule, mash schedule, BU/GU ratio, hops utilization, mash efficiency, and fermentation temps.

Edit: I don't use kit wines and I never have and never will. Always fresh fruit that I picked/bought/foraged, mostly foraged.
 
I gotta add, beer brewing has clone kits. When was the last time you saw a Kenwright clone?
 
The reason why there are fewer winemaking groups (at least in the US) is the difficulty of making great wine and especially doing it from grape, rather than kit. Modern winemaking is more fussy than brewing, grapes or fresh must can only be acquired generally in one small window of the year, and the leap to produce good wine is a lot more challenging than learning to brew great beer. It's not like beer where you can start on a kit and progress incrementally into all the more hands-on parts of brewing.

Most home winemaking is either country wine or kit wine. There's nothing wrong with country wine but it's a small slice of the wine market (at least in the US) and talking about pouring a kit wine in a carboy doesn't lead to a lot of great conversation. Nothing wrong with making wine kits but of all the people I know who have made wine kits I know very few who ever advanced past kits or seemed eager to talk about their adventures with winemaking.

Thanks for this explanation. It's common sense but I never really took into account the seasonality of sugar sources for wine must, even using locally sourced "wild" berries (mulberry, raspberry, etc).

Malted grains can be purchased dry, and store for months. I do all grain, so this means I can brew basically whenever.

The annual gathering around the 'ol apple press is taking on a greater meaning for me now. The act of MAKING cider is fairly trivial.... but gathering the SOURCE material, especially if you want it local/organic/etc.

Honey for mead is basically in the same ballpark but at least storage for scheduling purposes isn't difficult since most folks want to sell you clean honey.

For you folks that live in areas where grape grows are abundant: is there an affordable way to score some fresh juice like mead folks can do with a good honey connection?

Dunno why but that sounded alot more "cheech and chong" than I was intending LOL....
 
Thanks for this explanation. It's common sense but I never really took into account the seasonality of sugar sources for wine must, even using locally sourced "wild" berries (mulberry, raspberry, etc).

Malted grains can be purchased dry, and store for months. I do all grain, so this means I can brew basically whenever.

The annual gathering around the 'ol apple press is taking on a greater meaning for me now. The act of MAKING cider is fairly trivial.... but gathering the SOURCE material, especially if you want it local/organic/etc.

Honey for mead is basically in the same ballpark but at least storage for scheduling purposes isn't difficult since most folks want to sell you clean honey.

For you folks that live in areas where grape grows are abundant: is there an affordable way to score some fresh juice like mead folks can do with a good honey connection?

Dunno why but that sounded alot more "cheech and chong" than I was intending LOL....
I just noticed on your profile that you live in Central Iowa, where do you live? I’m in Des Moines and we can't grow vinifera grapes here, but if you’re ok with cold hardy hybrids there are quite a few vineyards in central Iowa and most of them will sell you grapes for relatively cheap.
 
Live in Boone, work in Saylorville (soon Ankeny), originally from NW Iowa (Kingsley).

I have a friend up in Marquette who has taken me on local honey runs for his various meads. He started out like many with bulk "Sue Bee" blended honey, which was okay, but wanted to play with the terroir. ;)

I prefer his raspberry/lingonberry/elderberry mead batches, which are usually on the sweet side.

I've never considered making wine myself, tho my mother is a fan of whites. Sweet reds sometimes for me, which is odd since I do not indulge in soft drinks since I have started brewing, figuring what was the point LOL.
 
Ha ha for all you guys who think beer making is more complex than wine making obviously are only making kit wines.

i don't always make wine, but when i do, i have my barefoot pregnant wife wash here feet to crush the grapes! j/k :mug:

Sunflower seeds????



i'd imagine too fatty not starchy enough? as far as cat tails, maybe with some enzymes?
 
i don't always make wine, but when i do, i have my barefoot pregnant wife wash here feet to crush the grapes! j/k :mug:





i'd imagine too fatty not starchy enough? as far as cat tails, maybe with some enzymes?
I’ve never made a kit wine, so typically for a 5-6 gallon batch of wine I will harvest, crush, de-stem and press 60-100 lbs of grapes by hand. While I would definitely agree with anyone who says that this is a more labor intensive and physically demanding process than making beer, I don’t add water, sugar, sulfites, or anything else to my wine. I just smash the grapes with my hands and press the cap down daily until I decide to press and either transfer to a carboy for aging, or bottle soon thereafter if I am making Pet Nat. I have a four year old that can describe the basic steps of the wine making process, but he would not be able to formulate a beer recipe or tell me how to perform a mash, hop, or bottle condition a beer with any degree of accuracy. Simpler does not neccesarily mean easier. It’s similar to digging a ditch vs wiring a light switch. One is simpler but more physically demanding, the other is more complex although physically less demanding.
 
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