Discouraging Sacromyces Growth

[brwagur]

So, I just got my hands on some sourdough starter that has been in my family for a super long time and the stuff tastes fantastic. The sourness is great with some wonderful aromatic flavors. I'd like to try to use it in a beer or cider but I don't want the sacromyces to dominate over whatever other bacteria and yeasts are in the mix. When making the starter for my beer, is there anyway to slow the sac down so that everything else in the starter has a chance to get going before pitching? Any other suggestions for getting interesting results from sourdough starter that doesn't just taste like bread yeast?

 

[brwagur]

Update: I just pitched some sourdough starter into about a pint of apple juice (because I didn't feel like making wort) just to see what it does. Guess I had a lot of misconceptions about sourdough, like the fact that it contains much sacromyces at all. Maybe someone knows more than me but the main yeast is usually Candida right? I guess I'll see what flavors this produces in my tiny apple juice starter.

 

[brwagur]

Update again: the juice is cloudy and I can see countless tiny bubbles streaming up the sides of the fermenter. Smells good, too. Like cider, I guess.

 

[JimRausch]

Update: I just pitched some sourdough starter into about a pint of apple juice (because I didn't feel like making wort) just to see what it does. Guess I had a lot of misconceptions about sourdough, like the fact that it contains much sacromyces at all. Maybe someone knows more than me but the main yeast is usually Candida right? I guess I'll see what flavors this produces in my tiny apple juice starter.

I hope it's not Candida, as that's a pathogen that causes a disease known as Thrush. Bread yeast is Saccharomyces. My 30-year old microbiology books don't have anything on what's in sourdough. I'm guessing because of the flavor that there is Sacc. plus Lactobacillus bacteria. Maybe other bacteria as well.
Interesting experiment- keep us informed.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Candida is a common yeast in fermented foods, including kefir and sourdough starter. The infection you're referring to is external (skin, etc.). EDIT: Thrush is often in the mouth, but that again is fairly external (a colony growing on the tongue). It isn't a pathogen when taken internally.

 

[brwagur]

As to what microorganisms live in sourdough: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourdough#Type_I_sourdough

 

[JimRausch]

Thanks for the link brwagur. Interesting read. Now I want to make some bread(and beer of course)

 

[JimRausch]

Candida is a common yeast in fermented foods, including kefir and sourdough starter. The infection you're referring to is external (skin, etc.). EDIT: Thrush is often in the mouth, but that again is fairly external (a colony growing on the tongue). It isn't a pathogen when taken internally.

Thanks. Candida albicans is the pathogen. I didn't think that of course there were other species that were not pathogenic.

 

[ChefRex]

Thanks for the link brwagur. Interesting read. Now I want to make some bread(and beer of course)

But there is a bread thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f56/homemade-bread-thread-457601/

 

[bestbuds]

Candida is a big genus. Kind of like how there are species of Saccharomyces that are pathogens in certain circumstances (eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_kluyveri). Candida humilis shows up as the dominant yeast in sourdoughs typically, but you'll also see populations of Saccharomyces species and occasionally other yeast.

As for sourdough microbiota: there are a lot of factors that influence what's there. Among those, substrate (type of flour), pH (level of acidity), water availability (hydration level of the starter), temperature, and how often it's fed all play roles in determining what organisms are going to thrive. You see sets of these conditions loosely defined as the "types" (eg. Type 1, Type 2, etc).

Typically you see a ratio of about 100 bacterial cells per yeast cell, but this can differ greatly depending on the above conditions. I know this to be true in my sourdough starter, which is kept at 100% hydration (equal mix of flour and water), fed with 4x as much new flour/water as existing starter, and often refrigerated. I also see a stable and dominant population of Saccharomyces cerevisiae and Lactobacillus that hasn't changed much over the ~2 years I've been able to periodically check it with agar and microscopy.

Interestingly I've tried pitching it into wort, and it ferments pretty clean and fast, but doesn't produce any noticeable acidity. Kind of boring, really. However every sourdough is a little bit different so someone else's may produce great beer.

 

[brwagur]

Another update: Fermentation has visibly slowed so I tasted my test batch of cider for the first time and it tastes... good. Tart, but that's probably from the juice itself. It was very cloudy, so whatever yeast is in there is very poorly attenuative. I'm going to let it sit at room temperature for a couple more days then cold crash to try to get the yeast to settle out more. I may then use the yeast in a full gallon batch of cider

 

[brwagur]

Sorry to bump, but another update or two are in order.

I made a second starter with Tree Top apple juice and after it finished fermenting (at a fairly warm temperature) I bottled it and let it carb up.

Resulting cider tasted good but had a somewhat yeasty aftertaste. Mild vanilla note in the nose when warm, not sure what that's about.

I have since pitched the starter yeast into a gallon of UV Pasteurized cider. Let it ferment very cold for a week (40s-50s), then moved it to a cool room in the house for about a week (Mid 60's, but not very stable) and now that fermentation has slowed I've moved it into a warm room (possibly upper 70s)

The idea was that since the starter was fermented warm and turned out ok that starting the full cider cool and ramping up should give me more yeast character without as much of the yeasty/bready taste.

We'll see what happens!

(The yeast seems to be mostly sacc or something like it, at least so far it has been behaving that way. I'll have to try again to get some more exotic bugs!)