Diluting Cider to Add More Sugar?

[jstluise]

I'm getting ready to brew another batch of cider. The apples we pressed this summer (currently in the freezer) produced some pretty sweet juice (sg 1.053) so for my last batch I didn't add any supplemental sugar since I was already at a PA of ~7% ABV.

For this next batch I'd like to add some sugar (either brown sugar or molasses) to see what kind of flavor I can get. But, I want to stay in the 7-8% ABV. So, can I dilute my juice with water to lower my sg, giving me some room to add supplemental sugar?

 

[Maylar]

Yes, but... I would suggest adding your sugar at the end, after fermentation. There are a few peeps here (myself included) who think fermented molasses tastes funky. There's a thread here about it.

 

[jstluise]

Yes, but... I would suggest adding your sugar at the end, after fermentation. There are a few peeps here (myself included) who think fermented molasses tastes funky. There's a thread here about it.

Thanks for the response. That is good to know about fermented molasses...glad you told me and I didn't have to find out for myself.

My original idea with diluting the juice was to add more sugar for fermentation. You're method with adding molasses after fermentation would be back-sweetening the cider, and since I am not set up for cold-crashing and force carbing (still relying on bottle conditioning) I guess I'll have to wait until I have those capabilities. Otherwise when I add the molasses it will start working again...I could pasteurize everything right after bottling and adding molasses but I would like to have some bubbles in there.

But, let's say that I want to add a sugar that does taste good when fermented (seems brown sugar is popular). There wouldn't be any issues with bringing my SG down with water, then bringing it back up with brown sugar?

 

[WVMJ]

Only issue would be decreasing the cider flavor a little but you are making up for that with flavor, might I suggest a good honey, maybe a darker one like bamboo or poplar or darker later season wildflower would be much better. WVMJ

 

[jstluise]

Only issue would be decreasing the cider flavor a little but you are making up for that with flavor, might I suggest a good honey, maybe a darker one like bamboo or poplar or darker later season wildflower would be much better. WVMJ

Thanks for the suggestion...I think I'll try that! Do you have a suggestion on how much honey to add per gallon? 4oz/gal? Looking at the alcohol tables, adding 4oz/gal will only raise me up to around 8% ABV which would be alright...maybe I don't need to dilute it after all.

 

[Maylar]

Flavoring cider is far more effective when you do it at bottling time than adding something to primary. My recommendation would be to use what you have - 1.053 is a perfect starting point. Then when you bottle use some fermentable sugar for conditioning. Brown sugar, honey, frozen apple juice concentrate, take your pick.

 

[jstluise]

Flavoring cider is far more effective when you do it at bottling time than adding something to primary. My recommendation would be to use what you have - 1.053 is a perfect starting point. Then when you bottle use some fermentable sugar for conditioning. Brown sugar, honey, frozen apple juice concentrate, take your pick.

Good to know, I may go that route. I just finished up my first two batches (one Nottingham and one S-04) which were slightly sweetened with xylitol and carbed with frozen apple juice concentrate. The Nott was good, but we really liked the S-04. Figured I would do two more carboys: one S-04 like before, and another S-04 carbed with something else (honey).

 

[Maylar]

Good to know, I may go that route. I just finished up my first two batches (one Nottingham and one S-04) which were slightly sweetened with xylitol and carbed with frozen apple juice concentrate. The Nott was good, but we really liked the S-04. Figured I would do two more carboys: one S-04 like before, and another S-04 carbed with something else (honey).

I'm curious as to what you found different between those yeasts. I've only used Nottingham so far.

 

[jstluise]

I'm curious as to what you found different between those yeasts. I've only used Nottingham so far.

We noticed the Nottingham having an interesting taste near the end of a sip. Not really an aftertaste, but you don't notice it right away. Not a bad taste, kind of a bitter taste. The S-04 has a more uniform taste.

Also, I should note that I like my ciders pretty dry, only slightly sweetened. I back-sweetened both batches with Xylitol so it works out to 5 grams per serving (12 fl. oz). Ciders I usually buy from the store that I like are in the 3-9 g range. Anything higher and it is just too sweet. So, I imagine if I sweetened up that Nottingham a little more that taste might calm down a bit.

Another thing I read is that the Nottingham doesn't do well when fermented completely dry (it strips out flavor), which is what I did. So maybe that has something to do with it, but I don't know.

 

[Maylar]

It's the wine and champagne yeasts that are reputed to strip out the apple flavor, not the ale yeasts. But I'm getting ready for a trip to my local brew shop and I think I'll pick up some S-04 to try in my next batch. Thanks for the tip.

5 gm of Xylitol per 12 oz is a bit over 1 teaspoon, which is where I like my ciders too.

 

[jstluise]

The bit about stripping out the flavor I got from CvilleKevin's posts (stickied in the cider forum). He also mentions that the S-04 seems to retain more of the apple flavor than Nottingham, which I believe.

For carbing, I bottled conditioned with Treetop frozen apple juice concentrate and shot for 2.36 vols/19 L based on this chart (sucrose). That basically works out to 1 can of concentrate per 5 gallons, since 1 can has 174 grams of sugar. The amount of fizz was perfect! Made it very delicious! I've even had a few orange juice/hard cider mimosas for breakfast that were very good.

I did split my batch up even more and tried bottle conditioning with just straight dextrose (instead of apple juice concentrate, just to see the difference in taste), but I was disappointed to not find any bubbles in those bottles. I'm not sure what the issue is, but that probably deserves another thread. The bottles are still sitting here, so I am going to try one this weekend to see if they are just late bloomers.

 

[MarkKF]

We noticed the Nottingham having an interesting taste near the end of a sip. Not really an aftertaste, but you don't notice it right away. Not a bad taste, kind of a bitter taste. The S-04 has a more uniform taste.

The nose is a little different too. Both are good but Safale is better IMHO.

 

[jstluise]

Only issue would be decreasing the cider flavor a little but you are making up for that with flavor, might I suggest a good honey, maybe a darker one like bamboo or poplar or darker later season wildflower would be much better. WVMJ

I was going to order a variety of honey to add for carbing. I have the choice of raw honey or honey that has been heated/strained. Some of the raw honey may be crystallized, but warming it up will bring it back to its liquid state.

I am wondering if it would be better to get raw vs. heated/strained. Would one dissolve into my cider better than the other? I assume I'll have to make a warm honey/water mixture to get it dissolved before adding it to the cider?

 

[WVMJ]

Why would you dilute the honey instead of just mixing it straight into your cider? Man you keep wanting to dilute everything, turn the water spigot off! I cant tell you what kind of honey to use, do you know what the varietals are? Its going to make it cloudy with the raw proteins, only matters if you want it clear. WVMJ

 

[jstluise]

Why would you dilute the honey instead of just mixing it straight into your cider? Man you keep wanting to dilute everything, turn the water spigot off! I cant tell you what kind of honey to use, do you know what the varietals are? Its going to make it cloudy with the raw proteins, only matters if you want it clear. WVMJ

Lol I don't want to dilute it, just thought mixing it with a little bit of warm water would aid in dissolving/mixing with the cider. I don't have any experience with trying to dissolve honey into cider.

There is a website (not sure if I can post it) that I can get a variety of raw honey:
-Raw Bamboo Honey
-Raw Buckwheat Honey
-Raw Clover Honey
-Raw Goldenrod Honey
-Raw Orange Blossom Honey
-Raw Star Thistle Honey
-Raw Wildflower Honey

I was probably going to do 3-4 different batches and I am particularly interested in the bamboo, orange blossom, and wildflower.

The strained honey offered is:
-Buckwheat
-Clover
-Goldenrod
-Orange Blossom
-Star Thistle
-Wildflower

I really wanted to try the dark bamboo honey, but unfortunately they only have it raw.

My understanding is that the honey is strained/filtered to remove pollen and any tiny particles that can become nucleation sites for crystallization. But, because the crystallization is caused by the sugars in the honey I don't think it matters if I get raw honey; those sugars are going to be gone eventually. The only thing I can think of with raw honey is that I'll get any small particles in the cider, which doesn't really matter to me.

 

[madscientist451]

I would do some 1 gallon test batches, one with just your apple juice as a control, the others with some of the honey you have listed. Taste the honey, if you like the taste, go ahead and use it, some of that flavor is going to come through. If there are any metallic or farmyard funky flavors or aftertastes, don't use it. You can heat the apple juice slightly to make adding the honey easier, also put the jar of honey in a hot water bath to warm it up, don't add any water.
I wouldn't use sugar at all. I've tried it and don't like the flavors produced. But everyone has different tastes, so perhaps try it and see if you like it.
I would start with a small amount of honey and go from there.
In my experiments, WL002 ale yeast doesn't ferment all the way to dryness and leaves some apple flavor. I haven't tried it with honey.
Good luck!

 

[jstluise]

I would do some 1 gallon test batches, one with just your apple juice as a control, the others with some of the honey you have listed. Taste the honey, if you like the taste, go ahead and use it, some of that flavor is going to come through. If there are any metallic or farmyard funky flavors or aftertastes, don't use it. You can heat the apple juice slightly to make adding the honey easier, also put the jar of honey in a hot water bath to warm it up, don't add any water.
I wouldn't use sugar at all. I've tried it and don't like the flavors produced. But everyone has different tastes, so perhaps try it and see if you like it.
I would start with a small amount of honey and go from there.
In my experiments, WL002 ale yeast doesn't ferment all the way to dryness and leaves some apple flavor. I haven't tried it with honey.
Good luck!

Thanks for the reply. That was the plan. Right now I have 10 gallons brewing (getting ready to start another 5 gallons) so when it comes time to bottle I'll be trying out the honey for carbing. My last batch was pretty yummy with just carbing it with treetop concentrate, so I'll be using that as my baseline and I'll bottle some others with honey to see the difference.

 

[WVMJ]

Strained and filtered mean different things in beekeeping. Strained is like thru a screen to remove bee parts and chunks of wax. Filtered removes pollen. If you are just wanting to backsweeten and to carb the filtered stuff will be less cloudy than the strained. In most beekeepers opinion, filtered and raw do not go together since the pollen is removed. The bamboo is excellent honey, one of our local beeks makes that kind and it does work well in cysers. You may want to consider starting your next batch as a cyser. WVMJ

 

[jstluise]

Strained and filtered mean different things in beekeeping. Strained is like thru a screen to remove bee parts and chunks of wax. Filtered removes pollen. If you are just wanting to backsweeten and to carb the filtered stuff will be less cloudy than the strained. In most beekeepers opinion, filtered and raw do not go together since the pollen is removed. The bamboo is excellent honey, one of our local beeks makes that kind and it does work well in cysers. You may want to consider starting your next batch as a cyser. WVMJ

Thanks for the clarification. I'll have to see if their "raw honey" is strained at all. The other honey they have is definitely filtered, according to the wording on their website.

Really interested in giving a cyser a go...I'll have to add that to my list for next season! Just finished starting my last 5 gallons from the apples we pressed back in October.