Diluting brewing water and the use of salts to get to the perfect profile :)

[Elysium]

I know this post is really long and full of details...but I'd like to sort my water profile out once and for all. Thanks for anyone who contributes to solving this problem of mine.


I am planning to create my perfect brewing water (for IPAs, AAAs, APAs) according to the profile Randy Mosher recommends:

His idea is this:
Bicarbonate (CO3H):68.4
Sulphates (SO4): 350 --- this I don't like... I am slightly low on Ca...so I will reduce SO4 to 150
Chloride (CL): 50
Calcium (Ca): 110
Magnesium (Mg): 18
Sodium (Na): 17

Now.......here where I live (in Madrid, Spain), it is not easy to get to this profile. I need to do 2 things combined to get to this profile:

1, I need to buy spring water and dilute it with another - lightly mineralized - spring water to bring the bicarbonate level to the desired level (this is the only way....since all the available water is crazily full of CO3H....above 191 mg/1.05qts).
My spring water has this profile:
Bicarbonate (CO3H):191
Sulphates (SO4): 6.1
Chloride (CL): 13.5
Calcium (Ca): 29.2
Magnesium (Mg): 9.1
Sodium (Na): 37.9

The profile of the lightly mineralized water for diluting my main spring water is this:
Bicarbonate (CO3H):14
Sulphates (SO4): 1
Chloride (CL): 1.9
Calcium (Ca): 15.1
Magnesium (Mg): 2.4
Sodium (Na): 1.1

Mixing the 2 to get 9.24 gallons of brewing water....I need 3 gallon of my spring water and 6.24 gallons of the lightly mineralized water to get the desired bicarbonate level (according to beersmith).

3 gallon spring water+6.24 gallons of lightly mineralized water gives me this water:
Bicarbonate (CO3H):71.5
Sulphates (SO4): 2.7
Chloride (CL): 6.1
Calcium (Ca): 19.7
Magnesium (Mg): 4.6
Sodium (Na): 13.3

And obviously this leaves me with a big issue....the minerals are nowhere close to what I need and what Randy Mosher recommendes.

2, The second thing I gotta do is to use salts in my 9.24 gallons of water...
According to beersmith...I need gypsum (7.5g), Epsom Salt(3g), calcium Chloride(5g).

I get this water profile (this is my final water profile):

Bicarbonate (CO3H):71.5
Sulphates (SO4): 155.7
Chloride (CL): 74.6
Calcium (Ca): 108.6
Magnesium (Mg): 13
Sodium (Na): 13

My questions is whether or not I need all the different salts (epsom, calcium chloride, gypsum) or can I just use the diluted spring water without the salts (to brewi APAs, IPAs and AAAs). I dont mind deluting the main water.....but I am not sure I want 3 types of salts (in total 15.5 grams in 9.24 gallons of water) in my water. I am wondering if my diluted water with some pH stabilizer would do and would work as a great base water for these ale styles? Any thoughts on this?

 

[Yooper]

Why not use that water #2? Is it much more expensive? It seems better for brewing, and then you don't have the alkalinity issues.

There isn't actually a "target" bicarbonate level. You only need enough bicarbonate to get to a mash pH of 5.3-5.6 or so, and you could find that easily enough by using a brewing water spreadsheet (I like bru'nwater).

 

[Elysium]

Why not use that water #2? Is it much more expensive? It seems better for brewing, and then you don't have the alkalinity issues.

There isn't actually a "target" bicarbonate level. You only need enough bicarbonate to get to a mash pH of 5.3-5.6 or so, and you could find that easily enough by using a brewing water spreadsheet (I like bru'nwater).

Which one do you mean?

This one:
"Bicarbonate (CO3H):191
Sulphates (SO4): 6.1
Chloride (CL): 13.5
Calcium (Ca): 29.2
Magnesium (Mg): 9.1
Sodium (Na): 37.9"

This water seems to be at 5.68 pH and seems to be adequate for SRM 5 beers. I guess my AAA at 10 SRM will be perfectly fine. Probably the crystal malts will lower the pH a bit more putting it below 5.6.

None of the minerals are necessary later on for yeast health or anything similar? I mean this water is really low on everything.

 

[mabrungard]

I think you will be disappointed with the flavor of a pale ale or IPA made with low mineralized water. There just is no zing. Your fear of the high sulfate level presented by Mosher's profile is misguided. Sulfate is a very necessary component of a good hoppy style. I've not taken my sulfate level to 350 ppm, but I routinely brew with 300 ppm. There is no off flavor at that level. I recently crafted a pale ale with only 100 ppm sulfate and found it to be nice, but it lacked the dryness necessary to help the bitterness perceptions.

Don't use the pH stabilizer product. It does not work. If you are smart enough to add minerals to your water, you should be smart enough to adjust the water alkalinity to suit your brewing. Achieve a proper mash pH by employing an acid when needed.

 

[Yooper]

I meant use this one:


The profile of the lightly mineralized water for diluting my main spring water is this:
Bicarbonate (CO3H):14
Sulphates (SO4): 1
Chloride (CL): 1.9
Calcium (Ca): 15.1
Magnesium (Mg): 2.4
Sodium (Na): 1.1

and then use gypsum (and calcium chloride as needed) to the water to get the ions (especially sulfate) where you want it.

I use RO (reverse osmosis) water in all but my stouts, and add the necessary salts to get the proper mash pH and with enough calcium and sulfate (and chloride if I'm making a non-hoppy beer) for flavor.

Mash pH is really important, so you want to make sure you have that in range. The other items (like the 300 ppm that mabrungard mentioned above) are mostly for flavor, although it's important to have at least 40-50 ppm calcium for your yeast health.

 

[Ta0]

Mabrungard is right... Sulfate is commonly used in brewing hoppy beer to help bring out the hoppy character. Chlorides provide for a better malt character and you often use these in a ratio. The ratio Randy provided is 7:1 Sulfates to chlorides (that may be a bit high, I have never tried that range) but if you want to lower your sulfate I would also lower chloride level to keep at least a 2.5:1 ratio. Yooper is correct about the bicarbonate, you want to target traditionally 5.2-5.6 pH for your mash (taken at room temp) if you are a little to high add a tiny bit of lactic acid. to much will effect flavor but pH of the mash is important.

 

[ajdelange]

.. profile Randy Mosher recommends:

His idea is this:
Bicarbonate (CO3H):68.4
Sulphates (SO4): 350 --- this I don't like... I am slightly low on Ca...so I will reduce SO4 to 150
Chloride (CL): 50
Calcium (Ca): 110
Magnesium (Mg): 18
Sodium (Na): 17

Now.......here where I live (in Madrid, Spain), it is not easy to get to this profile.

It is difficult to get this profile in Ogden, QC too. In fact it is impossible to get it anywhere because it is not physically possible to have this profile as we discussed in another thread.

Beyond that it is usually not profitable to go chasing after a particular profile. Good beer is made by starting with a nominal profile (that can be realized) and then making minor adjustments to it. You will only frustrate yourself in trying to realize this profile.

A pale ale does not require any bicarbonate (alkalinity) . Quite the opposite. It requires acid.

Take the lightly mineralized water, add 2.5 grams of calcium chloride to each 19L of it and brew. It will make a fine pale ale. When the beer is ready to drink taste it as is. Then taste it with some gypsum added. Then taste it with some extra calcium chloride added. Your 'perfect' water is one which, with salt additions scaled from your taste tests, provides the beer you like best.

It is by no means certain that you will prefer a beer with high levels of sulfate. You very well might not. But then again you might. This is a matter of personal taste.

 

[IslandLizard]

I meant use this one:


The profile of the lightly mineralized water for diluting my main spring water is this:
Bicarbonate (CO3H):14
Sulphates (SO4): 1
Chloride (CL): 1.9
Calcium (Ca): 15.1
Magnesium (Mg): 2.4
Sodium (Na): 1.1

and then use gypsum (and calcium chloride as needed) to the water to get the ions (especially sulfate) where you want it.

I use RO (reverse osmosis) water in all but my stouts, and add the necessary salts to get the proper mash pH and with enough calcium and sulfate (and chloride if I'm making a non-hoppy beer) for flavor.

Mash pH is really important, so you want to make sure you have that in range. The other items (like the 300 ppm that mabrungard mentioned above) are mostly for flavor, although it's important to have at least 40-50 ppm calcium for your yeast health.

Hey Yooper,
It makes sense as it is the "leanest." Just add the salts you want. But...I don't know if you have been in Spain, or anywhere else in southern Europe, but that mineralized water is usually sold by the liter bottle. Perhaps in 5 liters, but that maybe pushing it. 15 some gallons of it runs a small fortune. I'm sure the OP can tell us all about that.

 

[Elysium]

Mabrungard is right... Sulfate is commonly used in brewing hoppy beer to help bring out the hoppy character. Chlorides provide for a better malt character and you often use these in a ratio. The ratio Randy provided is 7:1 Sulfates to chlorides (that may be a bit high, I have never tried that range) but if you want to lower your sulfate I would also lower chloride level to keep at least a 2.5:1 ratio. Yooper is correct about the bicarbonate, you want to target traditionally 5.2-5.6 pH for your mash (taken at room temp) if you are a little to high add a tiny bit of lactic acid. to much will effect flavor but pH of the mash is important.

Can you tell me where I could find an article or good information on the SO4 and Cl connection? I'd like to know the exact ratio I should aim for.

Cheers

 

[Elysium]

Hey Yooper,
It makes sense as it is the "leanest." Just add the salts you want. But...I don't know if you have been in Spain, or anywhere else in southern Europe, but that mineralized water is usually sold by the liter bottle. Perhaps in 5 liters, but that maybe pushing it. 15 some gallons of it runs a small fortune. I'm sure the OP can tell us all about that.

Exactly. I am looking into spending 10-12 dollars on water per batch (6.24 gallons). A total rip-off.....

 

[ajdelange]

There is no ratio that you should aim for. Your beers should contain chloride at the level that optimizes your enjoyment of them and sulfate at the level that has the same effect. These are not antipodal (or log antipodal). Ratio does not control the experience.

 

[Yooper]

Can you tell me where I could find an article or good information on the SO4 and Cl connection? I'd like to know the exact ratio I should aim for.

Cheers

There isn't a good ratio. It was popular in the past to look at the ratio, but it's better to look at the total amount.

For example, a beer with 300 ppm of sulfate and 150 ppm of chloride is a 2:1 ratio. So is a beer with 100 ppm sulfate and 50 ppm of chloride. And of course, 50:25 ppm. Those are all 2:1.

Those beers would be vastly different tasting.

I highly recommend mabrungard's bru'nwater spreadsheet- he has great information on water in there, and I learned so much by reading it, and using it. (It's in a link in his signature above).

 

[Elysium]

There isn't a good ratio. It was popular in the past to look at the ratio, but it's better to look at the total amount.

For example, a beer with 300 ppm of sulfate and 150 ppm of chloride is a 2:1 ratio. So is a beer with 100 ppm sulfate and 50 ppm of chloride. And of course, 50:25 ppm. Those are all 2:1.

Those beers would be vastly different tasting.

I highly recommend mabrungard's bru'nwater spreadsheet- he has great information on water in there, and I learned so much by reading it, and using it. (It's in a link in his signature above).

I have tried to read it...but it is fairly difficult to understand. I always end up using Palmer's ideas on water and using his pdf to calculate pH and hardness:
http://www.howtobrew.com/images/f83.pdf

 

[ajdelange]

That little nomograph has been responsible for the ruin of many a beer. You won't find it in John's latest book and you won't find many still following it. John and others understand brewing water chemistry a lot better now than in the days when that nomograph was published. You would do well to forget that you ever saw it.

 

[SpeedYellow]

I have tried to read it...but it is fairly difficult to understand. I always end up using Palmer's ideas on water and using his pdf to calculate pH and hardness:
http://www.howtobrew.com/images/f83.pdf

A small warning about this nomograph: it's completely misleading, entirely 100% useless, and has done a great disservice to homebrewers. It instructs us to use minerals to change your pH, which is a travesty. Minerals are for taste. Acids are for changing the pH. This is a very simple truth, but after hearing a recent podcast on Jamil's show, it's not clear Palmer is willing to speak this truth. We'll see next week when the new book comes out.

 

[Elysium]

A small warning about this nomograph: it's completely misleading, entirely 100% useless, and has done a great disservice to homebrewers. It instructs us to use minerals to change your pH, which is a travesty. Minerals are for taste. Acids are for changing the pH. This is a very simple truth, but after hearing a recent podcast on Jamil's show, it's not clear Palmer is willing to speak this truth. We'll see next week when the new book comes out.

Thanks for the info.

This leaves me more puzzled than I was before....but I guess this is how this works. Sooner or later, I will understand this subject better.

Is there actually a way to calculate the pH range of my water? I mean isnt it Mg, Ca and bicarbonates after all that make a water acidic, neutral or alkaline? Knowing these 3 should be able to give me the answer....right?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the info.

This leaves me more puzzled than I was before....but I guess this is how this works. Sooner or later, I will understand this subject better.

Is there actually a way to calculate the pH range of my water? I mean isnt it Mg, Ca and bicarbonates after all that make a water acidic, neutral or alkaline? Knowing these 3 should be able to give me the answer....right?

Well, you could easily calculate the water's pH. But that wouldn't be helpful.

What is important is the mash pH. The alkalinity in your water + the acidic nature of the grain would = mash pH. That's why it's important to reduce the alkalinity (via boiling, or lime softening if the water is a candidate for that, or dilution).

 

[SpeedYellow]

...
Is there actually a way to calculate the pH range of my water? I mean isnt it Mg, Ca and bicarbonates after all that make a water acidic, neutral or alkaline? Knowing these 3 should be able to give me the answer....right?

No, no, no!! Don't even discuss minerals and pH together - they are totally separate issues! Again, minerals are for TASTE. Like Yooper just posted, the pH you care about is mash pH. To modify mash pH, add acid (lactic, phosphoric, or acid malt). If your water has high bicarbonates, you need more acid to overcome that buffering (this is all you need to know about the mineral-pH-connection).

When you want to fine-tune the taste of the beer, then worry about minerals. E.g. increase sulfate a for a hoppy beer, or increase chloride for a malty finish, or whatever.

 

[Elysium]

No, no, no!! Don't even discuss minerals and pH together - they are totally separate issues! Again, minerals are for TASTE. Like Yooper just posted, the pH you care about is mash pH. To modify mash pH, add acid (lactic, phosphoric, or acid malt). If your water has high bicarbonates, you need more acid to overcome that buffering (this is all you need to know about the mineral-pH-connection).

When you want to fine-tune the taste of the beer, then worry about minerals. E.g. increase sulfate a for a hoppy beer, or increase chloride for a malty finish, or whatever.

Ok. It all makes perfect sense.....but then again.....we have reached a stage where I need to know how to calculate what the mash pH will be. I have the water profile available, and I know what grains I'll use. So, how do I do that? How do I calculate the RA from the information I have if Palmer's way is not good (as you were saying) and that Bru'nwater spreadsheet for me is impossible to understand?

 

[ajdelange]

You can calculate pH from the mineral content and I thought I did that for you in another thread. It was in the mid 8's as I recall. Just two side comments: it isn't easy to do and mineral content and pH are definitely not separate issues. But to reiterate: water pH isn't important. What is important is alkalinity.

The easiest and fastest way to get mash pH correct is to obtain low mineral content (RO) water and follow the recommendations of the Primer here. Barring that the second easiest way is to obtain some phosphoric acid and pH test strips and then acidify the water by itself to pH 5.5 and then follow the recommendations of the Primer as if using RO water. Go easy on the salts in this case - use perhaps half what the primer recommends as if you water is already hard and you add 5g/19L calcium chloride it is going to be really loaded with calcium (and chloride if that is present in the source water). But the pH will be about right (be sure to use the sauermalz called for).

If you want to be able to work with your water at some point you will have to understand the fundamentals of water chemistry. Perhaps the soon to be released water book might help.

 

[Elysium]

You can calculate pH from the mineral content and I thought I did that for you in another thread. It was in the mid 8's as I recall. Just two side comments: it isn't easy to do and mineral content and pH are definitely not separate issues. But to reiterate: water pH isn't important. What is important is alkalinity.

The easiest and fastest way to get mash pH correct is to obtain low mineral content (RO) water and follow the recommendations of the Primer here. Barring that the second easiest way is to obtain some phosphoric acid and pH test strips and then acidify the water by itself to pH 5.5 and then follow the recommendations of the Primer as if using RO water. Go easy on the salts in this case - use perhaps half what the primer recommends as if you water is already hard and you add 5g/19L calcium chloride it is going to be really loaded with calcium (and chloride if that is present in the source water). But the pH will be about right (be sure to use the sauermalz called for).

If you want to be able to work with your water at some point you will have to understand the fundamentals of water chemistry. Perhaps the soon to be released water book might help.

I have just read that post....wierd...for some reason I havent looked at the thread since I last commented on it. My bad...I apologize.

I'll get back to you guys in a bit....I have been working on that ideaof yours...diluting the water and adding salts.

 

[Elysium]

If you want to be able to work with your water at some point you will have to understand the fundamentals of water chemistry. Perhaps the soon to be released water book might help.

Here is what I have changed.....used bottled spring water and RO (you guys call it that...here it is "very lightly mineralized water" ) and then added 12.8 grams of salts (a combination of 4). I have used beersmith to calculate these values.

Let me know what you think.

By the way....what's the title of that book you have previously mentioned?

 

[Yooper]

Keep trying on the bru'nwater- I promise you that there is a learning curve but once you "get it", you'll love it.

In the meantime, try EZ water spreadsheet. You can find it via google, or via -th (a member here) in his signature.

I will tell you that the projected pH in the EZ water spreadsheet is always wrong- but it's closer than where you're at now. If you plug in your numbers, along with your recipe, it will give you the predicted mash pH. It always is .2 or so high for me- but if you play with it at least you can guestimate where the pH will be.

For what you show there, I'd get rid of the epsom salts (not needed) but if you want to keep them, you can.

 

[Elysium]

Keep trying on the bru'nwater- I promise you that there is a learning curve but once you "get it", you'll love it.

In the meantime, try EZ water spreadsheet. You can find it via google, or via -th (a member here) in his signature.

I will tell you that the projected pH in the EZ water spreadsheet is always wrong- but it's closer than where you're at now. If you plug in your numbers, along with your recipe, it will give you the predicted mash pH. It always is .2 or so high for me- but if you play with it at least you can guestimate where the pH will be.

For what you show there, I'd get rid of the epsom salts (not needed) but if you want to keep them, you can.

Is it this one: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/?

I cant find any other EZ spreadsheet, nor a user called -th. sorry

 

[Yooper]

Is it this one: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/?

I cant find any other EZ spreadsheet, nor a user called -th. sorry

Yes, that would be it.

Like I said, the mash pH ends up high by about .2 for me, so it's not as accurate as bru'nwater, but it can get you started on learning how bicarbonate affects the mash pH.

If you want to use the high bicarbonate water, bru'nwater has the tools for acidifying the sparge water along with other helpful information, but I know there is a learning curve with it.

 

[Elysium]

Yes, that would be it.

Like I said, the mash pH ends up high by about .2 for me, so it's not as accurate as bru'nwater, but it can get you started on learning how bicarbonate affects the mash pH.

If you want to use the high bicarbonate water, bru'nwater has the tools for acidifying the sparge water along with other helpful information, but I know there is a learning curve with it.

Ok, perfect. Tomorrow I look into it. I have created a diluted water profile (bottled water with RO water)+4 types of salts in 12.8grams. I think I'll experiment with this new water profile at next week brewing.

Thanks a lot for all the help.

 

[ajdelange]

I have used beersmith to calculate these values.

If you are comfortable with Beersmith stay with that. I have as much respect for Kai as I do for Martin. But you will still have to make the effort to ascend the learning curve (material embedded in Bru'n Water and at the Braukaiser website for Beersmith). Both these guys are engineers. If you aren't then - well that is the nature of life and it isn't going to be easy. This stuff is intricate if not complex.

By the way....what's the title of that book you have previously mentioned?

I had to look it up! http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381993/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Yooper]

I NEVER correct AJ deLange, but I have to here. Kai Troester is "braukaiser.com" and not "beersmith.com". Beersmith is by Brad Smith, pHD.

Beersmith's water tools are sorely lacking, although I use the software for recipe formulation and love it for that.

 

[ajdelange]

My mistake. What's Kai's software called? Ah, here it is. Brewer's Friend. Sorry about that. Not familiar at all with the other and not too familiar with Friend either but Knowing Kai it should be good.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Ok. It all makes perfect sense.....but then again.....we have reached a stage where I need to know how to calculate what the mash pH will be. I have the water profile available, and I know what grains I'll use. So, how do I do that? How do I calculate the RA from the information I have if Palmer's way is not good (as you were saying) and that Bru'nwater spreadsheet for me is impossible to understand?

Use EZ Water -- it's super easy. And no, you don't ever again need to calculate residual alkalinity -- so try to forget everything about that nomograph. Your goal here is just to figure out how much acid you need given your water and recipe to get the mash pH down. I'd probably start with 3% acid malt and go from there.