Did I ruin my first pils attempt ?

[Romex2121]

Wanted to try brewing my first Czech style beer ,
This was a 2.5 gallon brew
4.2lb. Weyermann Pilsner malt
3oz. Briess carapils
1.5oz Ireks acid malt
.32oz Perele @ 60min
.5oz Saaz @ 30min
.5 oz Saaz @ 5min
11.5 oak of 34/70 yeast
All said and done
OG came to 1.044
FG was 1.008
IBU 34 , .73 BU/GU
did a single infusion mash @ 154
and batch sparged @ 165 ish
My problem is after fermenting for 5 days at 54 degrees and doing a D rest at 64 degrees for 3 days the wort has a smell of something like cooked vegetables with a slight taste of the same as it smells, not a popcorn butter smell nor a corn smell , Not sure how to explain it other than a cooked vegetable type smell.
I did rehydrate the yeast per instructions given by maker and slowly cooled yeast to 54degrees (same as wort) before adding to the wort .
I did notice fermentation activity was pretty slow compared to ale but I expected that being lager yeast , FG reading was taken at day 4 and was @ 1.012 this is when I started bringing temp up to 64 degrees ,took about a day to get to 64.
today makes day 4 @ 64 degrees and FG is at 1.008 and has been for 2 days in a row now .
the smell has me worried and wondering if something went wrong or I need to leave it a few more days to see if it goes away ??

 

[bu_gee]

Did you use a wort chiller after the boil?

My first attempt with pils went off the rails in the same way and the only thing we can determine was that we didn't chill it fast enough after the boil.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Wanted to try brewing my first Czech style beer ,
This was a 2.5 gallon brew
4.2lb. Weyermann Pilsner malt
3oz. Briess carapils
1.5oz Ireks acid malt
.32oz Perele @ 60min
.5oz Saaz @ 30min
.5 oz Saaz @ 5min
11.5 oak of 34/70 yeast
All said and done
OG came to 1.044
FG was 1.008
IBU 34 , .73 BU/GU
did a single infusion mash @ 154
and batch sparged @ 165 ish
My problem is after fermenting for 5 days at 54 degrees and doing a D rest at 64 degrees for 3 days the wort has a smell of something like cooked vegetables with a slight taste of the same as it smells, not a popcorn butter smell nor a corn smell , Not sure how to explain it other than a cooked vegetable type smell.
I did rehydrate the yeast per instructions given by maker and slowly cooled yeast to 54degrees (same as wort) before adding to the wort .
I did notice fermentation activity was pretty slow compared to ale but I expected that being lager yeast , FG reading was taken at day 4 and was @ 1.012 this is when I started bringing temp up to 64 degrees ,took about a day to get to 64.
today makes day 4 @ 64 degrees and FG is at 1.008 and has been for 2 days in a row now .
the smell has me worried and wondering if something went wrong or I need to leave it a few more days to see if it goes away ??

Is the smell sulphuric? Like rotten eggs? If so, give it more time, lager strains create more sulphur compounds than ame strains and some lager strains produce bigger amounts than others.

I brew my "house" tripel with the Westmalle strain, you don't want to be close to that bucket for the first two weeks and it takes 2 months to completely get rid of it, so if sulphur is your issue, time is your answer.

For future brews, adding nutrients and choosing a less sulphur prone lager strain can reduce the issue

 

[day_trippr]

The offending character seems well described and it is most likely not from the yeast. Reads like classic DMS...

Might be a helpful read

https://winning-homebrew.com/dms-in...S in beer, or Dimethyl,been cooked in (hmmmm).

 

[Immocles]

To me, cooked vegetables goes with DMS. I had a Kolsch end up with a vegetable taste to it and strongly think it was DMS related

 

[Romex2121]

I did use my stainless wort chiller , with the ground water being cold this time of year it took maybe 15 min to get wort down to 60 degrees...
Not a sulphur smell and trust me we know what sulphur smells like , we have a train that goes thru town hauling cars full of sulphur...
If it is DMS and fermentation has completed will it still go away with a little more time ??
Id really hate to spend the time letting it lager just to find out it was a waste of time .
I’ll give it a couple more days and see what happens if no change I may just start over and chalk it up to beginners luck , I was really careful with sanitation So I highly doubt there’s any infection.

 

[madscientist451]

Did you have a good boil going and for how long?

 

[Immocles]

I did use my stainless wort chiller , with the ground water being cold this time of year it took maybe 15 min to get wort down to 60 degrees...
Not a sulphur smell and trust me we know what sulphur smells like , we have a train that goes thru town hauling cars full of sulphur...
If it is DMS and fermentation has completed will it still go away with a little more time ??
Id really hate to spend the time letting it lager just to find out it was a waste of time .
I’ll give it a couple more days and see what happens if no change I may just start over and chalk it up to beginners luck , I was really careful with sanitation So I highly doubt there’s any infection.

Fwiw, mine never faded. I tried to convince myself that it did, but it was still there on the final bottle a couple months later.

 

[Romex2121]

Boiled 90 min. ,,
Because I was concerned about DMS I did boil harder than I usually do with ales ,
It was a good medium ta hard rolling boil.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I did use my stainless wort chiller , with the ground water being cold this time of year it took maybe 15 min to get wort down to 60 degrees...
Not a sulphur smell and trust me we know what sulphur smells like , we have a train that goes thru town hauling cars full of sulphur...
If it is DMS and fermentation has completed will it still go away with a little more time ??
Id really hate to spend the time letting it lager just to find out it was a waste of time .
I’ll give it a couple more days and see what happens if no change I may just start over and chalk it up to beginners luck , I was really careful with sanitation So I highly doubt there’s any infection.

I feel you with that train, I used to work at a port and some days it was pretty awful dependent on what was being unloaded

 

[Beermeister32]

Pilsner malt does require the 90 minute, hard open boil, no lid. DMS has that vegetal cabbage taste. I had to dump a batch of Pilsner once due to following somebody elses 60 minute boil recipe. If this is what you have, there is no saving it, dump it and move on.

 

[Romex2121]

;; If this is what you have , there’s no saving it , dump it and move on. ;;

I was afraid of that , I’m gonna give it till Tuesday and check it again, if it’s still there I’ll dump it and try again this weekend.
Bad thing is I really can’t think of anything I did wrong other than my water (RO) in sealed jugs being a couple weeks old
but even that has never been an issue in the past.
Beginners luck I guess

 

[Dland]

I brew w pilsner malts regularly, use a 60 min vigorous boil, and cood quickly, as you did. The 90 min boil thing is an oft sited "fact" that has not born out in may experience. In fact I have tested batches with 100% pils and differnt boil times, and noticed no difference in DMS levels. The wort gets stronger and darker with longer boil, but beer is otherwise similar.

I am assuming your grain was fresh, dry and uncontaminated.

The off flavor is likely to be something else. I would not rule out some problem with the water, depending on the type of plastic the jugs are made of. The thinner plastics are porous to gasses, as well as prone to retaining flavors of previous contents, if any.

I would also not recommend dumping it until it has cold crashed and rested cold for a while. Lagers really do need this to achieve their true flavor, much less do than ales.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I brew w pilsner malts regularly, use a 60 min vigorous boil, and cood quickly, as you did. The 90 min boil thing is an oft sited "fact" that has not born out in may experience. In fact I have tested batches with 100% pils and differnt boil times, and noticed no difference in DMS levels. The wort gets stronger and darker with longer boil, but beer is otherwise similar.

I am assuming your grain was fresh, dry and uncontaminated.

The off flavor is likely to be something else. I would not rule out some problem with the water, depending on the type of plastic the jugs are made of. The thinner plastics are porous to gasses, as well as prone to retaining flavors of previous contents, if any.

I would also not recommend dumping it until it has cold crashed and rested cold for a while. Lagers really do need this to achieve their true flavor, much less do than ales.

I brew all pilsner too, which means that for me to be more efficient I only use pilsner as a base malt, I do 60, 90 and 120 min boils and never had an issue

 

[eric19312]

I agree your description is right in the wheelhouse for DMS.

But I'd still vote for not dumping. Even if you become sure it has DMS I'd bottle it up and save at least some for future comparisons. Maybe to share with other homebrewers as an example of the off flavor. I don't run into DMS often, maybe I an just not that sensitive to it, but would be curious to try it for learning.

And maybe like others have said it is just lager being lager and needs some time. You won't find that out if you dump it.

 

[hottpeper13]

I split a 10 gal batch with a friend (it was a 90 min boil), Mine was very good with no off flavors and his was like a batch of cream corn. We're still scratching our heads.

 

[bu_gee]

It is worth noting that smell doesn't always translate to flavor, and flavor in a young beer doesn't always reflect the flavor of the mature beer, so I would say that you probably want more information before you dump.

I would agree with the others that it does sound like DMS. I had a bad DMS experience with a hefe recipe that called for half pils and half wheat. Eventually chilling quickly, or more precisely, lack thereof, appeared to be the issue. I also remember reading something about copper chillers being more effective for this particular problem as well and I had even read about people throwing pennies into their wort right before flameout.

I should also note that the hefe in question was drinkable, but not the most pleasant experience. Letting it offgas for 5 mins before drinking was quite helpful.

With all that said, I don't do any pils recipe without my copper chiller and I also don't use pils between May and November because my water supply isn't cold enough to chill the wort through the critical DMS range quickly. I kind of get a feeling for why the German beer purity laws had a similar restriction in place. I use this as an excuse to make a Marzen in March, as the name says you should.

 

[Beermeister32]

I usually age the beer out in a keg and try it before deciding to bottle or dump. I've not been able to clean up DMS with time.

 

[Romex2121]

I may take the advice for not dumping yet, I found a can of Czech style Pilsner in the back of the fridge so I opened it and poured a bit in a plastic vial test tube like container we use at work ( oil field) to send in oil samples ( yes it was clean, LOL ) I let the sample warm up to room temp and took a whiff , the smell is not far off from what I’m getting with my brew . I’m boiling a pot of water now and gonna set both samples in the hot water to heat up for 10 ta 15 min. and smell both
If by chance their close I’m gonna go ahead and run with what I have .
I’m starting to wonder if maybe it’s not the Saaz hops I’m smelling and confusing that with a potential bad beer .
I did put a sample of my brew in the fridge last night and when I gave it a smell & taste this morning it wasn’t that bad , temp was around 34 degrees.

 

[Romex2121]

Both heated samples are dang close in smell , my brew is a little stronger hopefully due to a difference in IBU’s but pretty much the same scent ,
I had to talk the wife into it but she took a smell of both and had the same conclusion and she didn’t even know what she was looking for between the two samples
I’m gonna transfer from the plastic jug it fermented in to my 3 gallon
SS Brewbucket , purge with Co2 and start dropping the temp to crash for a few days then move to a 2.5 gallon keg to lager for awhile , or should I just go straight to the keg and lager ??
was thinking if I went to brewbucket first I wouldn’t have as much yeast dropping out in keg ..
I want to thank all of you that replied with your opinions and help and hope you never get tired of helping us new guys get better .
I’m still not 100% sure the brew isn’t bad but I do feel better that both the store bought and mine were close enough in smell test to go ahead and let what I made finish out..

 

[Dland]

Hops & yeast flavors and smells defiantly mellow out and improve w aging process, glad you are staying the course. While many ales are somewhat to pretty enjoyable right after fermentation, this is not true of lagers.

 

[Vale71]

That's most likely diacetyl which is typical for most Czech lagers. If that's the case then it will mellow out thanks to the yeast cleaning it up. If it's really DMS on the other hand then it's defnitely there to stay.

 

[BrewZer]

I trust that by now you've decided to save your beer.

Good call; at best, you'll enjoy it after it has aged a few months in the cave -- at worst, you'll have plenty of boiling stock for tough meats, hot dogs, and soup.

 

[bu_gee]

... at worst, you'll have plenty of boiling stock for tough meats, hot dogs, and soup.

This is something I never thought of and it would have helped go through my stocks of stinky hefe a littler faster. Gonna file this in the back of the ol' noggin in the hopes that I'll never have to use it.

 

[Romex2121]

What else is gonna go wrong !!
so I decided to not dump it and see what we get so yesterday morning before leaving for work I dropped the temp in fridge to 50 degrees and planned on transferring to keg to let lager when I got home , got home went to pull fermenter from fridge and saw that my blow off tube had sucked all the Star San/water mixture in a mason jar being used as my blow off container ,,
I couldn’t believe it , after all the stressing I went thru and now this , it sucked in 2 maybe 3 cups of star San and water ,
I pulled the blow off tube out
capped the fermentor and slammed the fridge door cursing the whole time , I was so aggravated I didn’t want to even mess with it anymore.
I really didn’t think 50 degrees was gonna cause suck back but it dang sure did ,
when I get home today I’ll take another sample and test the OG and take a taste to see what kinda damage the added fluid caused also gonna check calibration on ink bird temp probe ,,
Maybe this brew is just not meant to be ,
Seems nothing is going right with this one.

 

[bu_gee]

Was it a quart mason jar?

I've had suck-back before to no major ill effect, but that was no more than 3-4 oz.

Give us an update after you check it.

 

[Romex2121]

So far looks like the fluid that got sucked in didn’t bother it to much , did notice a little less hop flavor , OG was about the same .
I let it set a couple more days just to make sure but so far so good , I did keg it up today and dropped temp to lager
I’m kinda thinking about dry hopping to get some flavor back but I’ve never done it and have no idea how much hops to add for a couple gallons of beer , if I did it I would use Saaz hops in a small bag I have . Any thoughts on dry hopping ??

 

[Beermeister32]

Heck why not at this point. 3 days in a bag. Add marbles or stainless steel washers to weigh down the bag. Purge the keg well with CO2, I use 15 cycles.

 

[shoreman]

Pilsner malt does require the 90 minute, hard open boil, no lid. DMS has that vegetal cabbage taste. I had to dump a batch of Pilsner once due to following somebody elses 60 minute boil recipe. If this is what you have, there is no saving it, dump it and move on.

I brew short and shoddy 30 min boils all the time with Pils malt and no DMS - I think that's just an old myth perpetuated out of unmodified pils malts. Not saying it couldn't happen but this pils malt is the only base malt I've used for the past 3 years and no issues on a 30 minute boil - have even done a 20 min with no DMS.

I use a highly modified german pils though - Avangard Malz

 

[bu_gee]

I brew short and shoddy 30 min boils all the time with Pils malt and no DMS - I think that's just an old myth perpetuated out of unmodified pils malts. Not saying it couldn't happen but this pils malt is the only base malt I've used for the past 3 years and no issues on a 30 minute boil - have even done a 20 min with no DMS.

I use a highly modified german pils though - Avangard Malz

It isn't a myth. I've had it happen. My LHBS only sells one brand of each type of base malt so I don't have much choice in malts unless I want.to buy 55 lb bags, which I'm not at that stage.

What size batches do you brew? I'm beginning to wonder if that has any bearing on DMS production and purging.