Diacetyl, I can't believe its not butter!

[KaSaBiS]

Just rebrewed my torpedo clone (again) and although its better than the last it isnt half as great as the first one I brewed.

1) brewed a 5 gallon batch with simple shake starter, was great and clean and super bitter and hoppy. this was bottle conditioned. a year later,

2) rebrew on a 10 gallon system. may have had a weak boil in a few min of the 90 min boil. but I also started using my new, o2 stone (which I believe I ran for 45 seconds to a min for each of the 2 ferementers), water purifier (carbon filter), and stir plate with step starter. I may have decanted too early although my home fridge is kept at 33F I cold crashed only one day before I decanted and put another 2 liter starter on it. which may have been too short of time to cold crash. each time I left the starter to stir about a day. 4 months later,

3) re-rebrew and oxygenated around 2 min in each 5 gal glass carboy, thought my boil was better but I still have the oily slick mouthfeel and buttery, dull, syrupy taste again. my yeast starter was the same setup. all from JZ mrmalty calc. 1.5 or so L starter, chill 1 or 1.5 days then decant till i see cloudys coming, then pitch fresh 2 L on the mini yeast cake

I need ten gallons of my damn Torpedo clone and keep screwing it up and having to call it the "free" beer. (as in have as much as you want and I wont make you help me on brewday) Im trying to get ten gal of this stuff to hoard.

havent had this problem in the last two porters ive brewed, or my pale ale, and I have a few weeks to see how my Janets brown gets kegged.

Should I never decant, or chill for atleast 4 days before decanting? im drinking mixed drinks looking at a few empty or unready taps.. life is so hard sometimes haha

Is it too risky to start another starter with either 1.040 dme or the beer itsself, let the beer warm up, decarb, repitch for a few weeks to see if the yeast can clean up my butterpedo

 

[KaSaBiS]

Ill add that this is WLP001 and fermented at 67 degrees in a ferm chamber. the last one I let sit in the ferm chamber for 2 wks at 67 then pulled it out in a flucuating temp room that avg holds 72 degrees to let it sit on the yeast cake a bit warmer for another week or two

also may have added a little too much (not crazy amounts) of yeast nuturient to each starter, and added per instructions for the full beer

 

[billl]

Are you saving yeast or was this a fresh WLP001? Straight out of the vial, it should be a low diacetyl strain.

Some infections toss of butter too.

Decanting is fine, just make sure you crash the starter long enough that all the yeast drop. Otherwise, you are pitching the yeast that tend not to floc ie the ones doing a lot of the "cleanup."

If you've got a butterball, I'd repitch some active yeast. Don't chill the starter for that - just pitch at high krausen. A rest will clean up some minor problems, but it sounds like you are talking about more than a minor problem. (use fresh dme, your beer would not make a good starter since you've already fermented out all the sugars.)

 

[KaSaBiS]

Thanks for the response. I ferment in glass and I clean, scrub (carboy cleaner for drills) then sanatize. I am pretty anal about sanatizaiton so for now i am putting that on the backburner.
maybe the less floc yeast are not quite settled a day or so after. that may explain it.
new question. should I buy another cal ale, or could I just rehydrate some dry yeast. or would it be better to (against typical advisement) make a starter out of the dry yeast to pitch with krausen?
I am dry hopping in a bag currently, can I leave the hops in there or should I remove them before the yeasties get down?

Thanks again!

 

[billl]

The general idea is to pitch the second yeast at high krausen so they are eating like crazy and are ready to clean up the extra diacetyl. A nice big starter would work as would skimming some krausen from another brew and adding it to this one.

 

[KaSaBiS]

still I need a tip on pitching here. I will use safeale 05 which states not to make a starter. Should I just rehydrate and pitch, or make the starter. if so how big of a 1.040 starter? or should I make it closer higher OG? thanks in advance

 

[duboman]

still I need a tip on pitching here. I will use safeale 05 which states not to make a starter. Should I just rehydrate and pitch, or make the starter. if so how big of a 1.040 starter? or should I make it closer higher OG? thanks in advance

Dry yeast does not require a starter but should be properly rehydrated

 

[KaSaBiS]

Dry yeast does not require a starter but should be properly rehydrated

yes I know the generals of dry yeast but I also am pitching in oxygenless/ already fermented beer. unexplored territory to me!

 

[igotsand]

What is your gravity at now?
It's still in the carboy?
Can you post the recipe?
I'd hate to have a buttery torpedo....
Igotsand

 

[RedRory]

I'm not sure that rehydrating dry yeast and putting that in the carboy will do you any good. As stated earlier, for this to have a chance at working, you really need to pitch actively fermenting yeast. A starting would work, and you could use dry yeast for that. If you have the ability, and the carboy space, brewing a .5-1 gallon batch and pitching that into the carboy would most likely clean up the butter, and not really change the flavor of the recipe. I've done this on a larger scale, and it worked great. Keep us posted on your process and how it worked. Good luck.

 

[Yooper]

I'm not sure that rehydrating dry yeast and putting that in the carboy will do you any good. As stated earlier, for this to have a chance at working, you really need to pitch actively fermenting yeast. A starting would work, and you could use dry yeast for that. If you have the ability, and the carboy space, brewing a .5-1 gallon batch and pitching that into the carboy would most likely clean up the butter, and not really change the flavor of the recipe. I've done this on a larger scale, and it worked great. Keep us posted on your process and how it worked. Good luck.

Yes, I agree. That's worth a try, and it may work.

I have no idea why you're getting diacetyl with WLP001- I never do. I wonder what is stressing the yeast to cause this. For the next batch, I'd try no starter and using vials of yeast (yes, I know- it will cost more!), and pitching just under the optimum fermentation temperature (for WLP001, I think it's 68-72 degrees?).

I'd use yeast right of out the vials, and pitch at like 62-63 degrees and let it warm up to 68 over the next 24 hours. That should minimize any stress, and encourage yeast reproduction. Then ferment at 68 degrees for 5 days, and then bring up to 72 to finish. If you get diacetyl again, then it HAS to be something wrong in the brewery like an infection (pediococcus causes a definite diacetly flavor).

 

[KaSaBiS]

The brew is in a keg. I pulled it out and let it warm up and degas. I rehydrated dry yeast, make a 1.8L starter and let it munch for about 16 hrs, and it is hard at work in the keg now. Ill give it a week or so and pull a sample to report back to you all. I use 001 frequently and this recipe is the only one I am having issues with, perhaps as a fluke I have been consistantly been pitching too warm only on the IPA. I thought my issue was with the higher alcohol. That theory was busted when I just tasted my new janets brown which turned out great. I also chilled the brown ale to 66 prior to pitching which is now my new method.
Thanks all!

 

[KaSaBiS]

The update as promised. Repitching a pack of active dry yeast worked. Beer is nice and clean. no residual sweetness and a nice sharp bitter from the hops. I am so glad this worked. I pulled a sample and drank a coffee mug of it warm and flat and was impressed. warm and flat would have shown any diacetyl for sure. I have a 2nd keg from my 10 g batch to repair.

I suppose I pitched warmer than I thought. I will probably end up changing my process for my summer brews by throwing my filled fermenters in the ferm chamber for a few hours to brin a few degrees below ferm temp prior to pitching. Thanks for the lager D rest suggestion on an ale. never would have thought about this


New quesiton. JZ states on a BN podcast that he never does a D rest on his lagers and just pitches cool and lets the temp rise slightly and holds it at ferm temp. Why would the proven method for lagering on this site be to bump up 10 degrees after primary and before lagering (d rest) yet the ninkasi skips this step and never has diacetyl?

I would love to know more about this prior to me doing my first lager next month.