Decoction - Probably not needed but would like to

[DeadYetiBrew]

Ok, so i got a Traditional Bock and an Oktoberfest coming up to be brewed.

I know that with the malts you get now it isn't as important as it use to be. However, i like the fact that it will help develop the malt profile and give the beer the depth i love. I've never brewed by decoction but would like to experience it and say that i have, to have it under my brew belt. I know they take time but i'm jobless so no big deal there.

So far this is what i understand of decoction (i've read a couple postings but still a little foggy). You basically mash in at one rest temp (depending on how many decoctions you are going to do) then you remove some of the grist and water and boil for a time, making sure not to scorch the grain. When this is added back to the main mash it should bring you up to your next rest temperature. Continue on with more decoctions or go to sparging.

My usual brew day consists of mashing then batch sparging and the boil. I'm still trying to dial down my equipment too. Now that i have a cooler with virtually no deadspace i thought it was a good time to try something a little harder.

So, tell me, how hard is it really or is it as i think, just time consuming?

 

[Iordz]

I don't think it is too hard, only time consuming, like you said. The biggest problem I have had was reaching the next mash temperature. I pull a third of the mash and boil it, then add it back and I'm still a few degrees off. Basically you have to do it once or twice to get the hang of it and to adjust your methods so that they will work with your system. I learned that I had to pull about and extra two quarts and then I was able to reach my mash steps. The other major issue is the constant stirring, you can't let the grains scorch, and this makes the heating a slow process.
I think you should give it a try. You will have to adjust for your system but that shouldn't be too hard. The most important thing is to decide whether you feel the decoction is worth it. Once you taste the beer you will know.

 

[Blender]

I did it one time with a hefewiezen. I could not get the mash temp raised by just the decoction so I had to pull some wort out and heat that to get to 150. I would think you will need to take a good 1\3 of the mash and use that to decoct. I boiled for roughly 20 minutes and stirred constantly so you can't leave the kettle.

 

[Yooper]

I've done a few, and they aren't hard at all, especially if you have some brewing software to help you with the calculations. It's fun, too, kind of like "really" doing something. It feels like you're doing something besides waiting for conversion.

 

[Kaiser]

If you can wait another 2 wks, I should have the video ready. I found out that there isn't any on Youtube, so I'll make one. Read this, it shows you how to hit your temps with ease as well as decoction mashes that you can use for modern grains w/o worry.

Kai

 

[DeadYetiBrew]

If you can wait another 2 wks, I should have the video ready. I found out that there isn't any on Youtube, so I'll make one. Read this, it shows you how to hit your temps with ease as well as decoction mashes that you can use for modern grains w/o worry.

Kai

I read over that really quickly and it did clear up quite a few things (first stop). I have to wait on my freezer set-up (problem with electrical outlets) so 2 wks shouldn't be a problem, i'd appreciate it.

Also, i'm thinking the best way for me to learn would be to start a mash at the appropriate temp (130*F or so) then pull off a third (or whatever the amount) of the grist and liquid, then boil for a set time. Supposedly longer the better, so i'd think 30 minutes or so. Then add it back bringing the mash up to normal mash temp (152*F) and mash normally. Either mashing out with plain water or decocting again for a mash out then sparging.

 

[cefmel]

At the beginning of this year,I started including a decoction at mash out for all of my beers, in order to get some more melanoidins for malt flavor. At the end of mashing for 1 hour, take 50 % of the grist and bring it to a boil for 20 minutes. Add back to the mash tun and the temp should be around 170 degrees. Batch sparge and it's on to the boil.

Honestly, I can't tell the difference in malt character and there is also an increased chance of leaching tannins from the grain husks into the wort. I'm going to stop doing this except possibly for the Bocks.

 

[Kaiser]

Honestly, I can't tell the difference in malt character and there is also an increased chance of leaching tannins from the grain husks into the wort. I'm going to stop doing this except possibly for the Bocks.

I still have to find a taste and pin it to the decoctions. The differences seem to be subtle, but getting some more tannins into the wort is also part of the decoction taste that is oftentimes decribed as a more robust taste which does go well with bocks and lagers but not with delicate beers like the German Pils. But the tannin extraction will not lead to an astringent beer like you get from oversparging.

Kai

 

[TexLaw]

Just don't forget your mini-saccharification rest when you pull that decoction. That extra bit of conversion often is important.


TL

 

[Glibbidy]

I've done a few, and they aren't hard at all, especially if you have some brewing software to help you with the calculations. It's fun, too, kind of like "really" doing something. It feels like you're doing something besides waiting for conversion.

Performing a decoction is the only time I actually break a sweat when I'm brewing.
The only part that's not fun doing a decoction, is the part when boiling decoction scalds my poor little hand while stirring. Perhaps I need a bigger paddle.

 

[the_bird]

Performing a decoction is the only time I actually break a sweat when I'm brewing.
The only part that's not fun doing a decoction, is the part when boiling decoction scalds my poor little hand while stirring. Perhaps I need a bigger paddle.

I've got a five-foot SS mash paddle I'd lend you, if you want to drive out to Pepperell this weekend and pick it up...

I've got to get better at decoctions, I always have a b*tch of a time hitting my rest temps (probably not pulling enough). I always blow right through the sac rest temp, too. Kaiser, I'm counting on your help!

 

[bradsul]

I have been doing a mash-out decoction successfully for quite a while now. Whenever I've tried to do a step up from say a protein rest to sacc. rest however I always WAY undershoot my temps. I think I'm just too much of a sissy and take way too little grain when I pull the decoction out.

I can't wait to see a video of someone who's successful at it!

 

[the_bird]

I have been doing a mash-out decoction successfully for quite a while now. Whenever I've tried to do a step up from say a protein rest to sacc. rest however I always WAY undershoot my temps. I think I'm just too much of a sissy and take way too little grain when I pull the decoction out.

I've thought about just doing a mash-out decoction, but then someone brought up the point that doing a decoction at mash out (at least, if I was to pull the thick part) would end up releasing a good amount of starch, which would not be converted since I was, in fact, mashing out. No idea if this is valid or not. When you pull for a mash-out decotion, are you pulling thick or thin?

 

[bradsul]

I've thought about just doing a mash-out decoction, but then someone brought up the point that doing a decoction at mash out (at least, if I was to pull the thick part) would end up releasing a good amount of starch, which would not be converted since I was, in fact, mashing out. No idea if this is valid or not. When you pull for a mash-out decotion, are you pulling thick or thin?

I heard that too, so I pull very thin. I basically run about 5-6 litres of the mash out through my sparge manifold, then scoop just enough grain to make it semi-thick (it won't hold my mash paddle up for example). I doubt I'm actually getting any real benefit out of the small amount of grain but it does allow me to do my mash-out without infusing more water. Plus, benefits or not, it's more fun.

 

[the_bird]

Do you think you get any melanoidin formation from pulling just the thin part? Doesn't the flavor element of a decoction come from the grain husks?

 

[bradsul]

I think it does come mostly from the grain (though I'm not sure, seems like common sense since we don't get it much from our regular wort boil). I doubt I get any noticeable decoction flavour benefits.

 

[Kaiser]

The flavor comes from the husks and melanoiden's. Though I have to say that I have a hard time picking out this flavor.

Starch release for the mash-out decoction is fine since the alpha amylase is still active during mash out ans should be able to take care of the stach. That's why you don't mash out higher than 170 *F b/c you might stop that enzymatic activity. When I do triple or nowdays the large double decoction I tend to make the mash-out decoction thin to minimize the starch release b/c the enzymes are already weakened. But if you have a single decoction, it can be pulled thick, even for mash-out. Unless you have 100% munich malt, there will be enough enzymes to take care of the additional starch.

Undershooting the temp is a common problem that I fix by pulling more and return only as much decoction as is needed to get to temp. The rest I let cool down and add a little later.

Most brewers seem to pull the decoctions way to thick and try to heat to fast. This is when you need to stir a lot.

Kai

 

[AdIn]

...

Starch release for the mash-out decoction is fine since the alpha amylase is still active during mash out ans should be able to take care of the stach. That's why you don't mash out higher than 170 *F b/c you might stop that enzymatic activity.
...
Kai

That's kind of new to me. I should give it a try. Is there a place to read about it in more details. It contradicts a bit to what other books say, but if it works - should be a big time saver.

 

[TexLaw]

Most brewers seem to pull the decoctions way to thick and try to heat to fast.

No joke on that, Kai. When I decoct to go from a protein to a saccharification rest, it often takes 30-45 minutes for the whole process, sometimes a little more, depending on how the mini-rest goes and how long I want to boil the decoction. Even then, I'm rushing it.

I also pull thin for mash out decoctions.


TL

 

[kmlavoy]

+1 on brewing software. Not to poo-poo what someone else said, but I've done decoction mash outs on my last 2 brews, and I took nowhere near 50% of the grist for the decoction. I do 5 gallon brews, and last time, I took 5.5 quarts. I use promash, and the mash schedule stuff calculates your decoction volume for you when you put your temps in. It all depends on your water to grist ratio in the mash, and how thick your decoction is supposed to be.

Way easy. Just remember to take your decoction out slowly, and add it back slowly. No need to take a chance scalding yourself, or doing a little hot side aeration to your brew. I use a 2 cup pyrex measuring cup to do the pull.

 

[TexLaw]

I use a long ladle to get down to the bottom of the tun when pulling a thick decoction.


TL

 

[Kaiser]

That's kind of new to me. I should give it a try. Is there a place to read about it in more details. It contradicts a bit to what other books say, but if it works - should be a big time saver.

It contradicts what Palmer writes, but I woudn't consider him an authority on that. I have to check Noonan and other books at home.

Most of what I have learned so far is written here and I don't consider myself an authority either. When German brewers pull decoctions they stop the stirer in the mash tun, wait for the grain to settle and then pump it from the bottom of that tun into the kettle. However thick it settled to, this is how thick the decoction is going to be. To my knowledge there is no device that strains the grains to thicken the decoction beyond that point. And if you look at the design of a heated mash-tun used for decoctions, it only has a little paddle on the bottom to prevent scorching (here page 17 lower left). This paddle is not going to stir a decoction as thick as it is oftentimes suggested. The mash thickness numbers I read are about 4 L/kg (2 qt/lb) for the main mash and 2 L/kg (1 qt/lb) for the decoction. Darker beers may have a thicker main mash (about 3.5 L/kg).

Kai

 

[the_bird]

I'm going to try a thinner main mash on the Pilsner this weekend. I'm a little leery of going 2qts/lb just in case I end up needing to infuse to hit temps, but I'll probably go with ~1.7 (versus my standard 1.25).

Kai, Tex, et al, what's a classic EuroPils want? Double decoction? Protein rest to sac rest, then sac rest to mashout? I'm thinking a short rest ~122°-125°, pull a decotion, boil for ~10 minutes, hopefully hit 150°, maintain that for an hour, then raise to 170°ish via a mashout decotion.

 

[Kaiser]

I'm going to try a thinner main mash on the Pilsner this weekend. I'm a little leery of going 2qts/lb just in case I end up needing to infuse to hit temps, but I'll probably go with ~1.7 (versus my standard 1.25).
Kai, Tex, et al, what's a classic EuroPils want? Double decoction? Protein rest to sac rest, then sac rest to mashout? I'm thinking a short rest ~122°-125°, pull a decotion, boil for ~10 minutes, hopefully hit 150°, maintain that for an hour, then raise to 170°ish via a mashout decotion.

The classic German Pils is not brewed with decoction anymore. B/c it is supposed to be a very delicate beer, the robust flavor of the deoction doesn't fit. So much for the current state of German Pils brewing and what I have found.

But you should do a decoction for your's. I suggest a Hochkurz mash done as double decoction. Dough-in at 133 *F, infuse to 140 F (maltose rest) , pull decoction after 30 min, boil for 10 min, return to reach 158 F (dextrinization) hold for 30 min, pull mash-out decoction, boil 10 min and mash-out at 169 *F. The benefit of this schedule is that you don't have a long protein rest or are able to skip this rest altogether. If you want to save the first step, you could also dough-in at 140 *F.

Kai

 

[the_bird]

What's the benefit of doughing-in at 133° instead of at the maltose rest?

 

[bradsul]

I have Noonan's New Brewing Lager Beer showing up in a couple days hopefully. I don't have lagering capability but I heard the decoction sections were priceless for the homebrewer.

 

[Kaiser]

What's the benefit of doughing-in at 133° instead of at the maltose rest?

Having a protein rest and being able to use infusions to get to the maltose rest, which allows me to hit the temp more precisely.

But I'm easily convinced that this is not necessary anymore as a lot of recent recipes from Germany, that I came across, dough in at the maltose rest or a little below. Some call the dough-in between protein and maltose rest an "enzyme" rest which seems to imply that they want the enzymes to get better dissolved before they will have to do work at higher temperatures.

Kai

 

[the_bird]

I have Noonan's New Brewing Lager Beer showing up in a couple days hopefully. I don't have lagering capability but I heard the decoction sections were priceless for the homebrewer.

I've got Noonan's book, it's great - but it also helps to have guys like you, Tex, and Kai to ask questions of - it's not the easiest material to understand!

Incidentally, I was re-reading a chapter of it, and came across all of the detailed information on the techical differences between what ale yeasts ferment and what lager yeasts can ferment... INFORMATION THAT WOULD HAVE EARNED US A ******* KEG OF RAY MCNEILL'S BEER!

 

[DeadYetiBrew]

So how does this look?

I will do an infusion to get the first rest to 133*F there i will protein rest for however the hell long it takes me. I plan to let all of the grain rest for about 5 minutes before pull the decoction. I'll pull and heat till 152, cut heat, put on a lid and let rest itself for atleast a good 10-15 minutes, then i'll turn back on the heat and boil the decoction for about 20 minutes. The times are all abouts because i have no idea how it's going to go being the first time doing a decoction. Adding back into the mash to bring it up to 152*F. Then, depending on how it's going, I'll either pull once everything is uniform temp or let it all rest still. I'll pull for mash out, something i don't even really do with a single infusion and batch sparge, since i'm going to i figure i might as well decoct it again for the mash out. So i'll boil again to bring the mash to 170. Rest for 10 minutes at mash out. Run it off, then sparge with 170*F water and continue to the boil.

Does that sound correct and is my knowledge thus far good about the process?

 

[Kaiser]

So how does this look?
I'll pull and heat till 152, cut heat, put on a lid and let rest itself for atleast a good 10-15 minutes,

I suggest heating the decoction to 158-160 F and letting it rest there for 10-15 min. This way you'll get more conversion. Also, if you wrap the pot in an old blanket, it will hold its temp better.

Otherwise it looks good.

Kai