Death of the generalist

[Onkel_Udo]

For my parent's and grandparent's generation, work was rarely an interfering factor in their home life. You worked from 8-4, Monday-Friday. At the stroke of 4, you left and went home. IME that's becoming less and less common. How many people here still check emails or work on reports after hours? My guess is that it's pretty common.

Though I am not a clock puncher or clock watcher, I have stopped taking work home. I learned an important lesson about 12 years ago...no one thanks you (monetarily or otherwise) for going the extra mile on your own time. They also will eventually take it for granted...and take advantage.

I will not link my personal phone to work email (and oddly I don't rate a company phone) and I will not take my work computer home unless I have "prior written authorization" to work from home (stupidest rule ever for salaried folks). I am sure I donate a 1/2 hour here and there to the company, but it has been a long time since I worked unpaid overtime of any sort...salaried or not. You have to be pretty confident in your job security, or employability elsewhere, to take a stance like that...but it is so liberating when you do. When I work over on closing week, I skip a day the next week when we are slow.

My hobbies and life outside work are just that important.

 

[TheMadKing]

Though I am not a clock puncher or clock watcher, I have stopped taking work home. I learned an important lesson about 12 years ago...no one thanks you (monetarily or otherwise) for going the extra mile on your own time. They also will eventually take it for granted...and take advantage.

I will not link my personal phone to work email (and oddly I don't rate a company phone) and I will not take my work computer home unless I have "prior written authorization" to work from home (stupidest rule ever for salaried folks). I am sure I donate a 1/2 hour here and there to the company, but it has been a long time since I worked unpaid overtime of any sort...salaried or not. You have to be pretty confident in your job security, or employability elsewhere, to take a stance like that...but it is so liberating when you do. When I work over on closing week, I skip a day the next week when we are slow.

My hobbies and life outside work are just that important.

I do the same as well.

My newest coworker (can't mop girl) volunteers her time for free constantly and it drives me nuts. She probably works an extra 4-5 hours per week for free. The boss loves her, despite her incompetence at everything because she's a yes-woman and has no self respect. People like that make my personal life harder and I have no respect for people who don't respect themselves or the value of their time.

 

[iijakii]

Things have just shifted directions. There's as many people that can't uninstall a damn program or do basic maths as those who can't turn a wrench or hang some drywall.

 

[TheMadKing]

Things have just shifted directions. There's as many people that can't uninstall a damn program or do basic maths as those who can't turn a wrench or hang some drywall.

The problem is, a lot of those are the same people.

 

[Twins_Dad]

Every single day I'm blown away by the helplessness of my peers. I frequently wonder how most people figure out tying their shoes because if the total lack of sense, and unwillingness to learn new things.

Honestly I think it all comes down to fear. People are afraid of what they don't know, so they never learn it, and the less they know, the more they are afraid. It's a compounding problem. Every day at work people ask me how I learned how to do things and my reply is always the same, "I tried and failed until I didn't."

THIS! I am constantly amazed at how many people around me lack the drive to accomplish tasks on their own. I get asked frequently how I know how to do this or that......you just do it damn it! Yeah, you may fail but that is how you learn. Have I ever rebuild a VE pump on first generation Cummins? NO, but i did it, and i did it by myself. Now I have a sense of pride every time I drive that truck despite how ugly and outdated it is. You can't buy that feeling, and I don't expect many people these days to understand it.

 

[Cheesy_Goodness]

Though I am not a clock puncher or clock watcher, I have stopped taking work home. I learned an important lesson about 12 years ago...no one thanks you (monetarily or otherwise) for going the extra mile on your own time. They also will eventually take it for granted...and take advantage.

I will not link my personal phone to work email (and oddly I don't rate a company phone) and I will not take my work computer home unless I have "prior written authorization" to work from home (stupidest rule ever for salaried folks). I am sure I donate a 1/2 hour here and there to the company, but it has been a long time since I worked unpaid overtime of any sort...salaried or not. You have to be pretty confident in your job security, or employability elsewhere, to take a stance like that...but it is so liberating when you do. When I work over on closing week, I skip a day the next week when we are slow.

My hobbies and life outside work are just that important.

That's definitely true. My old man worked for a company for years, taking call, working OT just to get **** on regularly. There's a difference between going "above and beyond" and being a yes man, like was stated above.

I've got a bit of a different circumstance since I work for my FIL. The pros DEFINITELY outweigh the cons (work from home when I need to without question for example), so I'm not complaining at all. He's a great boss like that to everyone, but the nature of the job is pretty demanding. Since he's family and since we're all treated like people instead of machines, I'll absolutely donate some of my free time.

 

[bbohanon]

I could so ramble on this topic.

I am 43 and father of 3 kids who are of the generation that things are "easy" and money grows on trees. They are actually alot more grounded than some of their friends whose parents give them $50k Diesel pickups or Challengers as soon as they turn 16. Not sure what these parents are thinking but that does NOTHING but breed a sense of entitlement with kids. My oldest(17) is the only one of his circle of friends that has a real job that he has to go to and earn money for his extra curricular activities, gas money, etc. I will not be his nor any of my kids personal cash register.

From a work perspective, I cannot tell you how many times I run into folks who get paid good money and do basically nothing but walk around the halls with a pen and clipboard to look busy. Most of the time they are the guys who join conference calls just to do some saber rattling so it looks like they know what they are talking about and have skin in the game when you know damn well they could care less about any of it.

I take pride in my work and what I do. I want to do it better and more efficiently than my peers which seems to not be the norm. I like to learn new things that not only help me, but bolter the resume for future opportunities as well as help make my team more efficient with more of us knowing how to do each others job so I am not the only one who knows how it all works(Lottery/Bus Factor). Most of my peers would rather keep their heads down and remain anonymous, in their silos and do "just enough" to continue to be on the payroll.

Its become all about how to remain employed and do as little possible for the paycheck, especially in the corporate world.
Its sickening and is alot of the reason why I am moving closer to just stepping on a ledge with my own business. I am tired of working for someone else and being the only one who gives a damn.

And then there are those folks who are not lazy, they are just complete idiots and should be wearing crash helmets to work. That's a rant for another day.

/rant off :fro:

 

[ajdelange]

I don't discount youtube.

I remember the Gray Furnace Man in my prayers every night.

 

[ajdelange]

Not hard if you remember what year Geo Washington was born

Hey thanks for that! Now I have a way of remembering when George was born!

 

[TheMadKing]

I could so ramble on this topic.

I am 43 and father of 3 kids who are of the generation that things are "easy" and money grows on trees. They are actually alot more grounded than some of their friends whose parents give them $50k Diesel pickups or Challengers as soon as they turn 16. Not sure what these parents are thinking but that does NOTHING but breed a sense of entitlement with kids. My oldest(17) is the only one of his circle of friends that has a real job that he has to go to and earn money for his extra curricular activities, gas money, etc. I will not be his nor any of my kids personal cash register.

From a work perspective, I cannot tell you how many times I run into folks who get paid good money and do basically nothing but walk around the halls with a pen and clipboard to look busy. Most of the time they are the guys who join conference calls just to do some saber rattling so it looks like they know what they are talking about and have skin in the game when you know damn well they could care less about any of it.

I take pride in my work and what I do. I want to do it better and more efficiently than my peers which seems to not be the norm. I like to learn new things that not only help me, but bolter the resume for future opportunities as well as help make my team more efficient with more of us knowing how to do each others job so I am not the only one who knows how it all works(Lottery/Bus Factor). Most of my peers would rather keep their heads down and remain anonymous, in their silos and do "just enough" to continue to be on the payroll.

Its become all about how to remain employed and do as little possible for the paycheck, especially in the corporate world.
Its sickening and is alot of the reason why I am moving closer to just stepping on a ledge with my own business. I am tired of working for someone else and being the only one who gives a damn.

And then there are those folks who are not lazy, they are just complete idiots and should be wearing crash helmets to work. That's a rant for another day.

/rant off :fro:

Amen to all of that, especially the helmets.

IMO there's nothing more dangerous than a hardworking idiot in over their head.

Life's hard, get a helmet.

 

[Stillraining]

Your first paragraph defines what I saw in Germany. With a certificate with many stamps on it saying you were qualified to do something, the average German defaulted to "knowing" they couldn't if they did no have that particular cert.

The second one has still never worked out for me. I am a less extreme example of what you described...I make about twice as much as I would spend for mundane repairs to home or car. I use quick oil change places for my truck and DD. I do not mount my own tires.

That said, I have never found a "savings" from having a professions do even a moderately big job around the house outside of having a roof done or a furnace installed. The reason is their unreliability and inability to finish on time and clean up after themselves means I spend more of my valuable time waiting on them. I went through this recently (twice) when helping others' prep their houses for sale...trim guy took 4 days longer than planned so paint guy could not get in on time so he pushed out a couple of weeks to go to other jobs and electrical guy no-showed twice when I took time off work to meet him and let him in the house (In the end, I just did that work), etc, etc.

When I redid my kitchen, I had it gutted, drywall hung and ready for mud and tape. Since I was on a really tight schedule, I hired a company with very good references to get it to primer. They said 3 days so I offered a 10% bonus to be done on time and added that to their standard contract. They finished the morning of day 5 so I had to pull and all-nighter to finish flooring. They also used no system (zip walls) to reduce the amount of drywall dust getting in the rest of the house and did not use the primer spelled out in the contract so I still had to re-prime the one original wall.

The last contractor I hired was a hardwood floor guy. I made it clear that the ONLY window to do the work was 5 days while I was gone to the track and the dogs were at the boarders. I moved all the furniture out of the rooms before I left and re-iterated to him that this was non-negotiable (boarding all my dogs is about $100/day). I returned home to find he had not yet started. I changed the locks, used his machines to do the work myself (the sanding and screening after stain). I called him after and told him the machines would be in my driveway at 6 am the next day so he probably ought to show up to get them...that he showed up for. This one cost me $580 in boarding fees, a twelve hour night getting to second coat of stain, three hours a night for three nights getting the poly (screen, vacuum, wipe down with alcohol, apply) down and $40 a day for buffer to screen between coats. It was a $1500 bid on the job.

You are a minority my friend if your a white collar Prof. or desk jokey.
I would wager to bet I'm just as handy as you are. I own an excavation business and 10 acres with two houses on it and have 5 women in my life..I do almost all my wrenching, welding ,fabricating and fixing and or building auto repair including transmissions and engines and theirs as well!...But I don't know if I would refinish a hardwood floor with a rotory sander.( Did it once with a square sander )..That is a learned skill and better left to a pro. Sounds like you live in an area where contractors have too many jobs and don't need references. References are about my only job leads because I don't advertise. Occasionally I get the drive by that stops and asks me to give a bid but that's rare. There are just to many of us out there and people can rent machines themselves. Reputation is my life blood.
I really believe your not thinking this out fully and don't realize how well rounded your self confidence obviously is and how much "Common Sense" you actually possess compared to 80 percent of the population. Never forget the 80/20 rule!

Now get off the backs of 80% of your fellow man and get out there and do your job man, to keep this dammed ship afloat.... Yes that is Satire...I think.. I'm glad to have you as one of us 20%ers! Carry On Mate.

 

[agrazela]

Is this new "entitlement" idea an America thing? Is it perhaps regional? I'm kinda afraid it might be...

We've hired 11 entry-level and/or first "real" job people over the last 2 years in my department. 2 from China, 1 from Russia, 1 from Ghana, 1 from Brazil, 1 from Guatemala, 1 from Peru, 2 from the Midwest US, 1 from the Northeast US and 1 from S. California.

Two of them left because, and they were quite candid about this, "they didn't want to work so hard." Guess which two.

I've always told my kids: if you're willing to work, you'll always get a job.

 

[iijakii]

Eh pretty sure being lazy isn't just an American thing. If you think it is, you've certainly never had to deal with any South American businesses! Man do I loathe dealing with any company out of Brazil.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

I could so ramble on this topic.

I am 43 and father of 3 kids who are of the generation that things are "easy" and money grows on trees. They are actually alot more grounded than some of their friends whose parents give them $50k Diesel pickups or Challengers as soon as they turn 16.

Also a bit off topic but former co-worker's kid helps us with race car some times. Smart kid, no discipline and no focus...a lot like his mom. Give him a task, a tool and some basic instructions and he will beat on something like an ape from the opening scene of 2001.

Ask him to hand you tools while you do one brake rebuild...he watches and learns. Tell him to do the other side while you hand him tools...he gets it done (obviously slower than an experienced hand). The next time I told him to swap the pads and lube the pins, he remembered all the steps but one (
how to push the piston back in the caliper) without any prompting.

He is now of driving age and I told his mom to give me some parameters for vehicle for him and I would go get an acceptable version of one that has issues he has to repair. I would keep it at my garage and give him times we can work on it together and times he can work on it on his own. She is considering it. Nothing like "blood in the game" to appreciate the value of your first car.

 

[Stillraining]

Europeans have always said North Americans work "to hard and too much"...Lazy is a mind set of the 1st world nations not just an North American workforce problem of late. Look into any European Union members behavior and or entitlement mentality to find this statement true.

 

[PlexVector]

Home or auto projects whether repair or new are excellent excuses to justify another tool for the box. Although I'm afraid the wife is starting to get suspicious after 30 years of such...

 

[Onkel_Udo]

But I don't know if I would refinish a hardwood floor with a rotory sander.( Did it once with a square sander )..That is a learned skill and better left to a pro.

Trust me...I was scared poopless. I had done one room with a drum sander before and it turned out OK but this beast was a LOT bigger than the little Clark I had rented (ended up easier to use too). About 3 AM when I finished vacuuming before wiping it down then doing the first coat of stain, I cracked a beer and looked at the WHOLE project and thought "Next house is colored concrete floors because that is just WAY too much work."

I honestly am not sure I have ever been that sore before or since. I have an amazing respect for those that do it for living.

 

[Stillraining]

Trust me...I was scared poopless. I had done one room with a drum sander before and it turned out OK but this beast was a LOT bigger than the little Clark I had rented (ended up easier to use too). About 3 AM when I finished vacuuming before wiping it down then doing the first coat of stain, I cracked a beer and looked at the WHOLE project and thought "Next house is colored concrete floors because that is just WAY too much work."

I honestly am not sure I have ever been that sore before or since. I have an amazing respect for those that do it for living.

Well I'm totally bummed..I thought for sure Id get added #4 to you" like list" for that post...Man your a tough sell.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Well I'm totally bummed..I thought for sure Id get added #4 to you" like list" for that post...Man your a tough sell.

Obviously I am either stingy with my likes or (the reality) I forget the stupid button is there.

You are now #5.

 

[Stillraining]

Obviously I am either stingy with my likes or (the reality) I forget the stupid button is there.

You are now #5.

All is right with my world today.......

Haaaaay wait!...If I'm number 5 and you only show 4 likes given.......waaaait-a- minuet...how slow do you think this old coconut is anyway...

 

[GHBWNY]

Interesting that [most] everyone who has responded to this thread advocates hard work, earning his keep, the desire to learn, being self-sufficient as possible, etc.. Qualities that, by no mere coincidence, also make a good homebrewer.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I'm salaried and work in an office job, so finding time to do things like change the oil in my car is a challenge. I can do it without any issue, but there isn't much savings there when just the parts are considered, let alone the time spent. For me, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

Same here. I know how to change my own oil. I don't actually do it.

It's a dirty, annoying job. I don't want to go through hassle of "properly" disposing it, and don't want to do the alternative. There are a bunch of other things they do at the full-service oil change places, like checking and topping up all the other fluids, etc, that I probably wouldn't bother with (or keep on hand, like I have any room to store that crap in my already-overfull garage). And the oil change place near me throws in a full car wash, including vacuuming the interior, and drying the vehicle by hand, for free in the cost of the oil change.

Sure if this was a $150 job, I'd do it myself. But when they're charging like $35.99, I'm just not going to deal with the hassle.

 

[atoughram]

If the reward isn't enough for the potential cost, it's better to hire it out.

And your reward level is going to be different than my reward level.

Add that to my list, I've been reloading since the mid 1990's

The point I was trying to get across is - Try it! It probably isn't as hard as you think!

We all did that with beer once and found out it isn't too tough.

 

[MindenMan]

I have always been a do-it-myself kind of guy just because I didn't want to pay someone for something I could do myself. I am 55 now, and still do my own necessary plumbing, wiring, drywall, etc., engine oil and filters, brakes, rotors, ECMs, and re-sealing pumps when needed. The last time I had a turbo die I had it fixed as I was too intimidated by the job to do it. This time I couldn't afford to have it done and purchase a turbo. I went to Youtube and to the diesel owners website I frequent. Even though I have minimal tools it was still a very easy job to do, and it made me angry I ever paid anybody to do it.
We men are genetically "fixers" at some point in our lives I believe, and some of us are "fixers" our entire lives.

 

[Homercidal]

I used to change my own oil, but I can't even buy oil for the price some local places charge to do it for me. I get their agenda; they can buy oil in bulk and save, and though they don't really make money on the oil change, they can inspect your car and list the problems and maybe you will have them fix it for you.

I just hate having someone else do what I can do myself. Sometimes it's not worth the time, but it's almost always worth the $$.

 

[passedpawn]

I used to change my own oil, but I can't even buy oil for the price some local places charge to do it for me. I get their agenda; they can buy oil in bulk and save, and though they don't really make money on the oil change, they can inspect your car and list the problems and maybe you will have them fix it for you.

I just hate having someone else do what I can do myself. Sometimes it's not worth the time, but it's almost always worth the $$.

I do the oil on all our cars. I can get under there and change the oil/filter much faster than if I were to drive somewhere. And it's cheaper (expecially for the full synth on 2 of them). The only downside is the mess. I collect the oil in large plastic buckets, then when several are full (every couple of years) I have one of my kids dump them at the local goodyear garage.

I will say, for some reason it pisses my wife off every time I do it myself. She's the yang to my yin I guess

 

[BrotherBock]

I'd guess it's part specialization. Then there's the perception that since there is a professional doing something (plumbing for example) that it must be too hard for me do myself.

It also seems that over the last few decades (thinking post-WWII) in a growing capitalist system with an abundance of services, an "I can pay someone to do that" attitude grew and the self-reliance capacity of the average american dwindled.

Necessity (or lack thereof) has removed a lot of those skills from the average person. With no need to learn it (other than self-reliance) there was no development of those skills. Instead we have a population that wants immediate gratification and an attitude that almost anything can just be paid for.

 

[Stillraining]

I will say, for some reason it pisses my wife off every time I do it myself. She's the yang to my yin I guess

Well you could do as I do then ... Change your oil every 100K ..I have never bought into the whole 3k oil change conspiracy...As a test vehicle I Bought a almost new Scion XB in 06 had 18K on it...Changed the oil filter at 50K the oil and filter at 100K. It has 157K on it now and I will change the filter this late spring when it warms up and it will get its second oil change ( since I'v owned it) at 200k. Hows that for getting the yin out of your yang..:fro:

Doesn't use any oil..doesn't leak any oil..run's like a champ.

 

[iijakii]

Necessity (or lack thereof) has removed a lot of those skills from the average person. With no need to learn it (other than self-reliance) there was no development of those skills. Instead we have a population that wants immediate gratification and an attitude that almost anything can just be paid for.

What's wrong with that?

 

[broadbill]

I'd guess it's part specialization. Then there's the perception that since there is a professional doing something (plumbing for example) that it must be too hard for me do myself.

It also seems that over the last few decades (thinking post-WWII) in a growing capitalist system with an abundance of services, an "I can pay someone to do that" attitude grew and the self-reliance capacity of the average american dwindled.

Necessity (or lack thereof) has removed a lot of those skills from the average person. With no need to learn it (other than self-reliance) there was no development of those skills. Instead we have a population that wants immediate gratification and an attitude that almost anything can just be paid for.

...and that is a bad thing?

 

[Onkel_Udo]

What's wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing. What is "wrong" is when you say you can't do it when you have never even tried. Even that is not wrong...because if you are unwilling to try, you truly cannot do it.

I would almost never make fun of someone who chooses to pay for services they have no interest in learning to do themselves. I rarely learn to do things that do not interest me...like farming...or roofing (OK, learned that once but want to forget).

I will chide you mercilessly if you tell me you "can't" do something that is completely within the limits of your physical abilities.

 

[agrazela]

I used to change my own oil, but I can't even buy oil for the price some local places charge to do it for me. I get their agenda; they can buy oil in bulk and save, and though they don't really make money on the oil change, they can inspect sabotage your car and list the bogus problems and maybe you will have they can trick you into letting them fix it for you.

Yeah, I probably can't change my oil for less than they can (though Wally World SuperTech does make it pretty close!). But I still do it myself because I know it'll get done right, with the right oil and at the right level, the plug won't be cross-threaded, and the oil cap will get put back on. I also get to see for myself what else really needs attention under the hood and under the car.

 

[MindenMan]

My car uses full synthetic oil and my wife's uses the stuff from Walmart. If I were to get my car's oil changed at iffy lube or wherever it would cost me at least $30.00 more.

 

[BrotherBock]

...and that is a bad thing?

The need for immediate gratification? Yes. That sets up unrealistic expectations and creates a demand for a speed that is not always attainable. It makes us impatient.

I can just buy that mentality? Not necessarily.Though my post certainly had a critical tone, I'm not necessarily saying it's a "bad" thing. Just that that mentality along with the way our economy has shaped over the X amount of years has likely contributed to the OPs idea that the generalist is dead.

That being said, personally, I think we all could benefit from being more self reliant and operating with "I can just buy that thing or service" mentality certainly has potential to be problematic. It's part of the rampant consumerism our country is so known for. It (in part) killed some of our self-reliance. So in that respect, yes, I think it is bad. But only insofar as you value development of self-reliant skills over purchasing skilled labor. As a grumpy, stubborn, socialist old-man trapped in a 30 year old man's body, I am always a supporter of buying less and doing it yourself.

But that's just me. To each their own. Cause...."you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

 

[BrotherBock]

But as valuable, precious, and taken up by other things our time is, it is certainly understandable that we don't have the time to learn and do everything ourselves.

 

[Turkeyshot]

But as valuable, precious, and taken up by other things our time is, it is certainly understandable that we don't have the time to learn and do everything ourselves.

I believe that to not be entirely true. I think with all the technology over the last few decades, if anything we should have more free time. But it seems more to me, that there are a large number of people that perceive spending time with their face in their phone on FB and whatever else to be an important time consuming thing.

 

[BrotherBock]

I believe that to not be entirely true. I think with all the technology over the last few decades, if anything we should have more free time. But it seems more to me, that there are a large number of people that perceive spending time with their face in their phone on FB and whatever else to be an important time consuming thing.

True. Key words, though, being not entirely.

You'd think technology would free us from the drudgery of labor, but that hasn't been entirely true....yet. The most privileged of us do have plenty of time to waste in front of a screen, but plenty of Americans are working 40+ hours a week, plus part-time jobs. Juggling family, errands, chores, and all the other demands life throws at you. The time many do have left they need a well deserved break.

 

[m00ps]

Im so specialized I cant put on pants

true story

 

[broadbill]

The need for immediate gratification? Yes. That sets up unrealistic expectations and creates a demand for a speed that is not always attainable. It makes us impatient.

I can just buy that mentality? Not necessarily.Though my post certainly had a critical tone, I'm not necessarily saying it's a "bad" thing. Just that that mentality along with the way our economy has shaped over the X amount of years has likely contributed to the OPs idea that the generalist is dead.

That being said, personally, I think we all could benefit from being more self reliant and operating with "I can just buy that thing or service" mentality certainly has potential to be problematic. It's part of the rampant consumerism our country is so known for. It (in part) killed some of our self-reliance. So in that respect, yes, I think it is bad. But only insofar as you value development of self-reliant skills over purchasing skilled labor. As a grumpy, stubborn, socialist old-man trapped in a 30 year old man's body, I am always a supporter of buying less and doing it yourself.

But that's just me. To each their own. Cause...."you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

The flip-side is that when people stop doing something for themselves there is a market opportunity there for a business to step in and do it for them (most likely a small business, at least in the beginning of the trend).

You may bemoan the lack of self-sufficiency on a personal level, thinking back to the glory days of when a man was a man and changed his own oil, but you can certainly argue the point that from a societal standpoint this is a good thing.

 

[broadbill]

I believe that to not be entirely true. I think with all the technology over the last few decades, if anything we should have more free time. But it seems more to me, that there are a large number of people that perceive spending time with their face in their phone on FB and whatever else to be an important time consuming thing.

When people weren't staring at their phones, they had them stuck to their ears talking with people, when they couldn't carry their phones around they were staying home jabbering into their landlines. Before they didn't have phones, they were writing letters, when they weren't writing letters they were sitting around campfires telling/memorizing stories.

Technology has changed, but people really haven't, despite what the grumpy old man have to say.