Daisy Cutter Pale Ale

[HarborTownBrewing]

As it stands, my version may end up being the fastest (non-party) keg to blow at my place.

That's almost the sad part too - I feel like I should be making another batch right now hahaha. Glad to hear it's going over well at your house!

I've been thinking about it, and I may try it again with a bit more Warrior: maybe .6 oz to get it a little closer. Then again, I still like it the way it is. Oh well, guess I'll just make a few batches.

I'm looking forward to hearing other people's recipes and results!

 

[m750]

Great updates guys, and nice to see the side by sides. Harbortown, I wonder if the few extra gravity points impacted the perception of bitterness. I too, kicked my first batch last night as I tried to bottle to make room for batch 2. Batch 3 is going on dry hop later in the week. I even managed to get a four pack of the original so, I'm looking forward to giving it a side by side with batch 2. I knew my first batch was lacking. Unfortunately my DC has taken some abuse traveling by air and at first blush, it's not nearly as aromatic as I remeber the beer from years ago.
AO

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

Harbortown, I wonder if the few extra gravity points impacted the perception of bitterness.

I don't know - it may have had an impact on it, but I think that's only a part of the reason mine wasn't as bitter. I have a feeling bumping up the 60 min addition and dropping the 30 min a little would help, but I'm not sure. It seems like there is more to it than that, but I don't know - hop additions and weights are tricky, especially with a beer like Daisy Cutter.

Glad to hear you are on your third batch - I'm interested to hear how your 2nd and 3rd come out. I just read your write-up on The Bottle Farm and thought that was pretty cool.

Let us know!

 

[m750]

Thanks HarborTown. My second batch is kegged, and been delivered to a friend for his daughters 1st birthday party this weekend. I did manage to steal 6 bottles before sending on it's way.
I tried a sample, and it didn't have the unbalanced sweetness from amarillo that the first had. It was still yeasty since it was the first pour, so not indicative of how the beer will pour on Saturday. I'll be transferring batch 3 to keg this weekend, and then I'll do the three way taste test, batch 2, batch 3, and the original. I'm not expecting it to be a clone, as I used 1968 again, I plan on trying us05 in a future batch but the timing of brewing that might be a ways off, I've brewed the past three weekends, so I'm due for a few weekends of work around the house. I wrote up my batch #2 brew day here, if anyone is interested.
http://thebottlefarm.com/ProjetsThoughts2/taking-second-chop-daisy-cutter/

AO

 

[NathPowe]

It seemed prudent to report that, only seconds ago, the keg of my first clone attempt officially crossed over to the other side. We had a good run and she tasted fantabulous until the very end.

The Sadness.

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

I tried a sample, and it didn't have the unbalanced sweetness from amarillo that the first had. It was still yeasty since it was the first pour, so not indicative of how the beer will pour on Saturday.

Have you had a chance to try batch 2 yet? I just read your write-up on it. I'm curious if bumping up your 10 min Centennial addition will help. I thought my hop schedule was perfect, with the exception of my 60 min not being enough - that said, I was going to compare ours but I didn't see your hop amounts, so I'm not sure where you are at (unless you posted it a while ago and I overlooked it).

Anyways, hope it turned out well. I've been passing mine out to friends, and every single person has told me they like mine better than the real thing (even without me posing the question). This beer also came out incredibly clear - I've never had a beer so clear after 3 weeks in the bottle and just a couple days in the fridge. I'm thinking I may want to start on batch 2!

 

[m750]

I find it really interesting you said your beer was really clear. I passed out a few bottles of batch one, and that was terribly cloudy. I've been trying to figure out what the deal is with it. It's not yeast, 1968 I used drops out dead. It could be the hop steep, not getting a great cold break, or a malt issue.

Here was my batch 2 recipe, but I'm brewing a 3 gallon batch, so, it's hard to compare numbers.
http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/445767/sb-daisy-cutter-clone-all-grain

I have not had a chance to sample batch 2, I made it, kegged it, and gave the keg to a friend for a birthday party. My friend said it kicked w/out problem. I did bottle a few before handing it off, but I haven't tried it. I have batch three in the keg now. I plan on doing a batch 1,2,3 vs DC taste test, maybe this weekend. Batch 1 and the original isn't getting any fresher.

I wrote up batch 3 brew day here:

http://thebottlefarm.com/ProjetsThoughts2/plan-c-batch-number-three-daisy-cutter-clone/

Batch 3 recipe:
http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/455425/sb-daisy-cutter-clone-all-grain

I'm planning on batches 4/5 using us05, I used 1968 esb for 1-3. I plan on testing marris otter and pale vs just pale with us-05, and depending on the taste testing results I'll adjust the hopping bills.

At this point, I'm don't think I'm trying to clone the beer anymore, but rather make the best pale ale I can. So, I might end up taking this off the thread for future updates. I don't have a readily enough supply of Daisy cutter to be able to nail the recipe.
AO

 

[ChairmanWow]

Three weeks of bottle conditioning and I've finally been able to try some of my batch in a head-to-head against the genuine Daisy Cutter. I judged mine somewhat more harshly than some of the other people who tasted it, but even I think it's pretty close.



Mine is on the left, the genuine article on the right.

The aroma is identical. The color is pretty close, theirs is a touch lighter and doesn't show the chill haze that mine does. The flavor is very very close, with theirs having a more upfront burst of bitterness and mine lingering longer. I noted an unsatisfactory soapy flavor in the back of the throat on my version, but nobody else noticed it when I did a blind tasting, and I may have just been finding fault.

I actually took the tour at Half Acre the day after I bottled, and talked it over with their head brewer. He confirmed the malt profile we've all been using is correct, but did note that their hop bill changes from time to time. He didn't confirm exactly what, but stated that they usually use some Zeus. I was given to understand that Zeus and Columbus are pretty much identical, so I can't see it making that much of a difference.

All in all, I liked theirs a bit more, but my version is a reasonable approximation, and a pretty good beer in it's own right, given it was my first all-grain to boot.




Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

Three weeks of bottle conditioning and I've finally been able to try some of my batch in a head-to-head against the genuine Daisy Cutter.

Awesome stuff Chairman. From your description, it seems like we had some similarities in the upfront bitterness not being quite the same as Half Acre's. For me, I'm a little bummed it isn't exact, but I actually find it more pleasing to drink than the real thing - not sure if you feel the same about yours.

I don't know if I missed it in a previous post, but could you post your recipe?

 

[ChairmanWow]

OG: 1.050 (A little high, my boiloff rate was way more than expected)
60min Boil
5 gallons

Grain
9 lbs Briess pale malt
5.3 oz Victory
5.3 oz Briess special roast
5.3 oz Dingeman's aromatic

Mash temp 152 F - 60 min rest

Boil
.5 oz Warrior 60 mins
.5 oz Centennial 30 mins
.5 oz Amarillo, .5 oz Centennial 15 min
1 oz Columbus, 1 oz Simcoe, .5 oz Amarillo for whirlpool
1 tsp Irish Moss 15 min

Yeast
White Labs 0001 California Ale, pitched in 1.5 L starter after ~ 16 hrs

Primary at ~68 F for 7 days, dry hop in secondary for 5-7 days.

Dry hop
1 oz Simcoe
1 oz Columbus
.5 oz Amarillo
.5 oz Centennial

 

[ChairmanWow]

Update: back in June I sent in two bottles of my clone to the Ohio Brew Week homebrew competition in Athens. The winners were announced yesterday, and mine (now hastily renamed Hedge Clipper Pale Ale) was unfortunately not among them.

I've actually really started to like this beer, as a few weeks in the bottle has evened it out a bit. I'd like to think the only major problem is that the BJCP would consider it overly bitter for the style, but I'll find out specifically what was wrong with it in a few weeks when they send out the judging sheets.

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

Funny, I just sent a couple of mine in for a homebrew competition as well! I won't know how it goes for another week, but it should be interesting.

 

[ChairmanWow]

Got the judging sheets back today, scored a 30. It was marked down for showing some signs of oxidation. I can't imagine the trip downstate in the back of a UPS truck did it any favors, and apparently my bottles were filled a touch on the low side.

In any case, 30 is still the tail-end of "very good" so it couldn't have been that bad. I'll just have to be more careful filling the bottles and try to enter competitions where I can personally deliver my entries straight from the fridge.

It's at least a comfort to know even the real Daisy Cutter has this problem too, as I finished the the last can from my trip to Chicago a few weeks back, and it tasted somewhat the worse for wear.

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

I forgot to provide the update, but I received the score sheets from the Homebrew Competition I entered my Daisy Cutter in:

-Scored 38.
-Won 1st place in the American Pale Ale category.
-Judge #1: "subtle tropical notes, mild fruitiness with a nice balance of bitterness. Bready with a light body. Very drinkable and balance, maybe add just a few more late addition hops but only a little."
-Judge #2: "Heavy bready, pretzel like, crusty, biscuity. Some citrus hops and slight yeastiness. Crusty breadiness aroma returns in full force. Medium bitterness and citrus hop flavor are balancing. Generic yeast fruitiness. Liked the balance of super bready malt and fresh hops. Bitterness may linger a bit too long, but it's not harsh."

So, this was great feedback and a nice result. One note made was that if I used an American Ale yeast strain to try to reduce the temperature. This is accurate: I didn't have great control of the fermentation temps.

Everyone I've given it to loves this beer - I'll absolutely make it again.

Here is the recipe again for anyone who is interested (pictures are available on the original post, post #89):

Grain:
9lb 12oz Two Row
5oz Aromatic
5oz Special Roast
5oz Victory

Hops:
.44oz Warrior (60min)
.44oz Centennial (30min)
.88oz Amarillo (15min)
.88oz Centennial (15min)
1oz Simcoe (Flameout)
.5oz Amarillo (Flameout)
.5oz Centennial (Flameout)
.5oz Columbus (Flameout)

Yeast:
US-05 (I used a yeast starter)

Dry Hop:
.5oz Amarillo (Dry hop 7 days)
.5oz Centennial (Dry hop 7 days)
.5oz Columbus (Dry hop 7 days)
.5oz Simcoe (Dry hop 7 days)

Target OG: 1.047 (I hit 1.050, so my abv is a little higher than the real Daisy Cutter)
Target FG: 1.008
IBUs (calculated by Beersmith): 60

 

[mtnagel]

Awesome, thanks for the update.

 

[truck]

@NathPowe, great efforts! You said the mouthfeel of your clone was spot on, can you share what your water profile is like? And if you made any additions or adjustments of any kind? For me, the mouthfeel of a beer is more than half the enjoyment as it slips down...

 

[jakis]

Anyone have an extract clone?

 

[mtnagel]

I got to try my clone vs the real thing today. I brewed almost the same recipe as HarborTownBrewing posted in #104. In the picture, mine is on the left, original on the right. Obviously theirs is a little redder (and clearer obviously). Theirs also tasted a bit sweeter and maltier. Like some of the earlier recipes posted, I would think some crystal malt would have helped. Mine had much less malt flavor.

I don't know when theirs was canned as the code date was smudged on the bottom of the can, but my hop aroma was more pronounced and fruitier. Mine is about 3 weeks old, 2 weeks in the keg. I also split the dry hop, with half going in primary for 4 days and half going in the keg suspended by floss. I may still be drinking the beer that is in contact with the hops. I also did a 30 min hop stand with the flameout hops at around 180F.

Also, mine seemed a bit more bitter. Instead of the warrior, I used hop extract to target 40 IBUs. All the other hop additions were the same. Theirs is a bit more balanced for sure, but I'm a fan of out of balance hoppy beers, so mine is pretty damn good too.

Here was the water profile I used and I was targeting 5.4 pH, but got 5.5 at 25 mins in the mash.

Ca - 99 ppm
Mg - 10 ppm
Na - 24 ppm
SO4 - 219 ppm
Cl - 30 ppm

 

[copper2hopper]

Subscribed! I had this beer for the first time ever in chi town this past weekend and it immediately drew me to "hhhhmmmm I wonder/bet I can find a clone for this one" and sure enough here you guys are. This one is delicious and I can't wait to try it out. I'm getting the ingredients this Wednesday to brew it up within the next week or so. It's definitely an expensive one though with all these hops ($25 alone in hops at my LHBS). I will post my results in the future. Thanks...you guys rock...cheers

 

[mtnagel]

You need to start buying your hops in bulk. It saves a bunch.

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

@mtnagel - thanks for providing an update! Glad to hear you got a good beer, looks delicious too.

@copper2hopper - best of luck with brewing this one up. One thing I had noted in my reflections on this brew is that it turned out a little less bitter than the real thing, so you may want to up your 60 min a little (I had used .44 oz Warrior). Let us know how it turns out!

 

[copper2hopper]

Thank you Harbor! I did. I carefully scoured through everyones recipe posts here and decided to go with the following:

5 Gallon Batch Daisy Cutter Clone
OG: 1.047
FG: 1.008
Yeast: US-05


Grain Bill Yeast to Buy Hops to Buy

9.75lb Briess Pale Malt US-05 1 Warrior
5.3oz Briess Victory 2 Centennial
5.3oz Briess Special Roast 2 Amarillo
5.3oz Castle Malt Chateau Abbey 2 Simcoe
2 Columbus
60 Minute Mash @ 149

60 Minute Boil
- .7oz Warrior 60 Minutes
- .44oz Centennial 30 Minutes
- .88oz Amarillo, .88oz Centennial 15 Minutes
- 1oz Simcoe, .5oz Amarillo, .5 Columbus Flame Out/Whirlpool

Dry Hop
- 1oz Simcoe
- 1oz Columbus
- .5oz Amarillo
- .5oz Centennial


I CAN'T WAIT!

 

[copper2hopper]

Sorry that got posted funny from my cut,copy,paste of my word document. Pay no attention to hops right next to the grains listed in the grain bill. That's just my grocery list for when I go to my LHBS

 

[mtnagel]

I'm hardly an expert on cloning or malts, but I would think if you want to come closer to the real thing, you would add some crystal malt to get some of the sweetness and the slightly redder color. Unless you don't want that

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

I'm hardly an expert on cloning or malts, but I would think if you want to come closer to the real thing, you would add some crystal malt to get some of the sweetness and the slightly redder color. Unless you don't want that

I'm just thinking out loud, and it's been a while since I thought about this beer (nearly a year actually), but the grain bill I had used (and a few other guys as well) came directly from the brewer at Daisy Cutter, so I think we were using the same grain bill as they were. I had compared my Half Acre's brew numerous times, and each time they were absolutely spot on in color between the clone and the real thing - the only difference was HA's was cloudier. My comparison pic is post #89 of this thread for what it's worth.

I don't know enough about oxidation and aging and whatnot, but the DC cans I compared my clone to were picked up from the brewery and were "fresh", so maybe the can you had from HA wasn't as fresh?

Or, maybe HA changed the grain bill a little bit in the last few months and the color is a little different?

 

[mtnagel]

Fair enough. I didn't know the grain bill came from the brewer. And like I said, I couldn't tell how old my cans were because the date code couldn't be read. So not sure what happened with mine.

 

[oljimmy]

I just brewed HarborTown's exact recipe, except that I used WLP 001 instead of US-05. It's fermenting away at 68F, OG 1.050. I will post pics and tasting notes when it's done. Sadly I don't live in an area with Daisy Cutter, but my wife fell in love with it on a trip to Chicago, and she should be a pretty good judge of how close it is.

I forgot to provide the update, but I received the score sheets from the Homebrew Competition I entered my Daisy Cutter in:

-Scored 38.
-Won 1st place in the American Pale Ale category.
-Judge #1: "subtle tropical notes, mild fruitiness with a nice balance of bitterness. Bready with a light body. Very drinkable and balance, maybe add just a few more late addition hops but only a little."
-Judge #2: "Heavy bready, pretzel like, crusty, biscuity. Some citrus hops and slight yeastiness. Crusty breadiness aroma returns in full force. Medium bitterness and citrus hop flavor are balancing. Generic yeast fruitiness. Liked the balance of super bready malt and fresh hops. Bitterness may linger a bit too long, but it's not harsh."

So, this was great feedback and a nice result. One note made was that if I used an American Ale yeast strain to try to reduce the temperature. This is accurate: I didn't have great control of the fermentation temps.

Everyone I've given it to loves this beer - I'll absolutely make it again.

Here is the recipe again for anyone who is interested (pictures are available on the original post, post #89):

Grain:
9lb 12oz Two Row
5oz Aromatic
5oz Special Roast
5oz Victory

Hops:
.44oz Warrior (60min)
.44oz Centennial (30min)
.88oz Amarillo (15min)
.88oz Centennial (15min)
1oz Simcoe (Flameout)
.5oz Amarillo (Flameout)
.5oz Centennial (Flameout)
.5oz Columbus (Flameout)

Yeast:
US-05 (I used a yeast starter)

Dry Hop:
.5oz Amarillo (Dry hop 7 days)
.5oz Centennial (Dry hop 7 days)
.5oz Columbus (Dry hop 7 days)
.5oz Simcoe (Dry hop 7 days)

Target OG: 1.047 (I hit 1.050, so my abv is a little higher than the real Daisy Cutter)
Target FG: 1.008
IBUs (calculated by Beersmith): 60

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

Can't wait to hear how yours comes out with that yeast, oljimmy!

 

[oljimmy]

Well, by mashing at 148-149 and pitching a nice healthy starter, I almost blew up my carboy, even fermenting at 62F. Luckily I caught the clog in time but even with a blowoff hose this one could run nice and dry. Did you actually test Daisy Cutter's FG with a hydrometer?

 

[copper2hopper]

Goof info to know jimmy. Thanks. I'll be hopefully brewing this Sunday. Is 62 the target fermentation temp for this?? Just got my new ferm chamber up and running and can't wait to utilize it on this one.